McCain was not tortured, PoW guard claims

reply to post by sputniksteve


In fairness you raise an important point, and it is all tied together, although I maybe should have stated my case in the OP, instead of waiting to do it afterwards.

Perhaps my opening stance should have been the question of why he supports torture when it is done in the name of his own country, and yet condemns it when it is done by others.

He said initially that gitmo and other prisons did NOT torture, then changed his mind, and said that it WAS torture, but that he was happy for it to happen because it works.

So in the first instance, when he said it WASN'T torture, he was as guilty as the vietnamese prison guard who is saying the same thing.

Originally posted by budski

Perhaps my opening stance should have been the question of why he supports torture when it is done in the name of his own country, and yet condemns it when it is done by others.

He said initially that gitmo and other prisons did NOT torture, then changed his mind, and said that it WAS torture, but that he was happy for it to happen because it works.

So in the first instance, when he said it WASN'T torture, he was as guilty as the vietnamese prison guard who is saying the same thing.

So a politician who has taken some time to decide if waterboarding is torture before introducing a bill specifically intended to outlaw all forms of military torture (the McCain Detainee Amendment), is exactly the same as a prison guard who denies torturing people?

Is that seriously what you're trying to convey in this odious thread.

reply to post by Retseh


It's not just about waterboarding - it's about the whole concept of torture and the flipflopping from McCain, and his views on it.

If you don't like the questions asked, don't post.
Simple really

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by Retseh

 

It's not just about waterboarding - it's about the whole concept of torture and the flipflopping from McCain, and his views on it.

If you don't like the questions asked, don't post.
Simple really

No need to get snippy just because someone disagrees with you, but I could certainly question your motives for trying to make something out of nothing.

So where exactly would you like your conclusion to be, are you simply looking for people to agree with you that McCain is an evil hypocrite who secretly likes torturing people, or do you actually have some useful point to make?

Your original post seemed to be more about a conspiracy regarding McCain's original torture, but seems to have morphed into a questioning of his character, how very unexpected that was.

reply to post by Retseh


The original question had validity as a news item, and is worthy of discussion, as are McCains remarks about US torture.

I don't trust ANY politician, but McCain is more odious than most, and has been caught lying before.

There are many sites, run by veterans, which question McCaind version of events - are they not worthy of discussion either?

In fact if you look through the thread, you'll find I have posted them.

I repeat - no-one forces anyone else to post in a thread, and the answer to that, as already stated, is simple.

Originally posted by budski

The original question had validity as a news item, and is worthy of discussion, as are McCains remarks about US torture.

Questioning McCains political manouevering over torture is entirely valid because he has indeed flip flopped to some degree on the issue, but you started out by questioning if he had ever been tortured in the first place, quoting one of his alleged torturer's denials as evidence supreme that he had never been touched.

No rational person could arrive at such a conclusion when you examine the rest of the evidence.

I don't trust ANY politician, but McCain is more odious than most, and has been caught lying before.

Until you Google it and discover something about the Keating Five, I'd wager that you're just winging it with that statement. This whole thread isn't about critical analysis of a credible news article, it's just the same old nasty slander of a conservative US politician. You hate the guy, you admitted as much.

There are many sites, run by veterans, which question McCaind version of events - are they not worthy of discussion either?

In fact if you look through the thread, you'll find I have posted them.

You have posted 3 links in this thread - 2 to some socialist rag called The Guardian, and one to a fellow prisoner's story which agreed that McCain had in fact been tortured in prison (great way to support your own premise by the way).

I don't see any links to "Veterans Websites" so come on let's see them.

I repeat - no-one forces anyone else to post in a thread, and the answer to that, as already stated, is simple.

Funny, I don't feel forced, in fact I'm quite comfortable in challenging your slander of a war hero.

When you're finished with McCain feel free to go after Randy Cunningham, he was another Vietnam hero who went crooked following his entry into politics. Crooked guy - yes, but don't expect a free pass if you question his war record.

So are you still saying that you believe McCain was never tortured?

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Retseh]

Originally posted by Marcus Calpurnius
Where did McCain get all his injuries if not from torture?

Perhaps it was when the plane he was in slammed into the ground?

Originally posted by MorningStar8741

Originally posted by Marcus Calpurnius
Where did McCain get all his injuries if not from torture?

Perhaps it was when the plane he was in slammed into the ground?

Well he wasn't in it when it hit the ground, he ejected, but he was severely injured from that crash. To this day he can't lift his arms above his head, although those injuries appear to have been inflicted by his ejection.

He does have a nice bayonet wound in his thigh I believe, last time I checked A-4C Skyhawks don't come equipped with those, but that was inflicted at the lake when they dragged him out, not at the prison.

His prison torture was just a good old fashioned beating combined with rope binding, and those physical scars heal fairly quickly, the mental ones probably last a good deal longer.

Or of course he's just an odious liar as has been promulgated elsewhere in this on-line version of a catapult with a pound of mud in it.

reply to post by Retseh


Link here

I thought I'd already posted it.

As you can see, and as I stated, there are vietnam vets who really don't like McClain.

After being drug from the lake, a mob gathered around McCain, spit on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing. He was bayoneted in his left foot and his shoulder crushed by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as the Hanoi Hilton.

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

When the communist learned that McCain's father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. Forces in the Pacific, he was rushed to Gai Lam military hospital (U.S. government documents), a medical facility normally unavailable for U.S. POWs.

The communist Vietnamese figured, because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, that he was of royalty or the governing circle. Thereafter the communist bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

For years, McCain has been an unchecked master at manipulating an overly friendly and biased news media. The former POW turned Congressman, turned U.S. Senator, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot and collaborations with the enemy by exaggerating his military service and lying about his feats of heroism.

source

Of course I expect you to deride the source as biased or some other such nonsense, but it clearly shows that not all vets are over enamoured of him.

And after all he is SUCH a nice bloke:

"I hate the gooks," McCain said yesterday in response to a question from reporters aboard his campaign bus. "I will hate them as long as I live."

source

In a way, if he WAS tortured to the extent that he SAYS he was (although disputed) then it is understandable - but are his comments any more valid than an ex guards?

Not really, given the level of animosity from his fellow vets.....

Originally posted by budski
I thought I'd already posted it.

As you can see, and as I stated, there are vietnam vets who really don't like McClain.

source

Of course I expect you to deride the source as biased or some other such nonsense, but it clearly shows that not all vets are over enamoured of him.

Quite the contrary, a most interesting site - absolutely no evidence of him fabricating his torture stories of course, but interesting nonetheless - and quite valid.

I find the idea of him being a Manchurian candidate (there's a link with evidence of his pro-Vietnam stance) a lot more appealing than just calling him an odious liar who wasn't tortured in prison.

And after all he is SUCH a nice bloke

Once again, he isn't. He is a bad temprered misogynist. But he WAS tortured in jail.

In a way, if he WAS tortured to the extent that he SAYS he was (although disputed) then it is understandable - but are his comments any more valid than an ex guards?

Oh dear, back to square #1. His cell mates have independently verified that he was repeatedly and systematically tortured, as were they all. You really shouldn't need more than that, and I already posted a link to that effect.

Not really, given the level of animosity from his fellow vets.....

Like I said, certainly a valid link, but I'll add this just out of interest - Vietnam vets hate Randy Cunningham, calling him arrogant and the most disliked man in the squadron, Kerry was ripped to pieces by the Swift Boat vets, and now this with vets against McCain.

Leaves me wondering if Vietnam Vets really like any of their number who rise to fame.

But just so we're clear, McCain didn't lie about being tortured, and as I recall that was where we started.

reply to post by Retseh


Except other testimony, such as that posted in the link contradicts that.

Does "slapped around a bit for 3 or 4 days" constitute torture?

reply to post by budski


Oh let's see now.....Mr Than was a Communist terrorist, which participated in the over-run of a regime in South Vietnam, using gorilla tactics,deadly weapons and slaughtered over 1 million South Vietnamese.

Yup, we really want to believe him. And by the way Mr. Than, how many died in the Hanoi Hilton? Gosh, we havn't had any deaths in Guantamo, Cuba. Did you treat the Americans as well as we treat our captives?

Here's a happy Halloween greeting: "Rot in Hell you Demon". Oh and have a nice day.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by Retseh

 

Except other testimony, such as that posted in the link contradicts that.

Does "slapped around a bit for 3 or 4 days" constitute torture?

Probably not, but one of your own links indicates that he was tortured consistently for a 2 year period.

We can do the back and forth about duration and severity, but I think the question of his having been abused is pretty well established through third party verification.

It's a pity you didn't start this discussion about the Manchurian candidate topic, I found some surprisingly challenging information on that in your vets against McCain link, especially in regard to his voting record on Vietnam since the war.

Originally posted by Retseh

Originally posted by MorningStar8741

Originally posted by Marcus Calpurnius
Where did McCain get all his injuries if not from torture?

Perhaps it was when the plane he was in slammed into the ground?

Well he wasn't in it when it hit the ground, he ejected, but he was severely injured from that crash. To this day he can't lift his arms above his head, although those injuries appear to have been inflicted by his ejection.

He does have a nice bayonet wound in his thigh I believe, last time I checked A-4C Skyhawks don't come equipped with those, but that was inflicted at the lake when they dragged him out, not at the prison.

His prison torture was just a good old fashioned beating combined with rope binding, and those physical scars heal fairly quickly, the mental ones probably last a good deal longer.

Or of course he's just an odious liar as has been promulgated elsewhere in this on-line version of a catapult with a pound of mud in it.

I am sorry, I guess I was just not as specific as you like.

Perhaps it happend when John himself slammed into the lake underneath him when his plane was shot down. Is that better?

As to the rest of your response, I did not say he was not tortured, I was simply clearing up that there are plenty of good reasons he is injured that are totally aside from torture. Thanks for assuming what I meant and going off like that that.

Of course, you bring up interesting points.
1. President with everlasting mental scars from torture a good idea?
2. His autobiographical account of that crash has been challenged by everyone there but McCaine and he was not really awake for most of it so...perhaps he is an odious liar. He is a politician. Find me one that is not.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


en.wikipedia.org...

John McCain's capture and subsequent imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[33][34] McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and nearly drowned when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake. Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, beating and interrogating him to get information; he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.[36] His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major newspapers

Of course it is wiki, so it could be complete rubbish compared to ex prison guard who backed everything up with facts, photos, and physical evidence.

May God Bless All Who Serve

reply to post by TheRooster


I am not sure at all what this response to me means. Are you ending sarcastically? See, I do not get it, because you seem to be trying to prove a point to me about whether or not he was tortured and as I have already stated once, I am not debating that, am I?

Please, could you clarify what it is you are trying to respond to me with, exactly?

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
reply to post by TheRooster

 

I am not sure at all what this response to me means. Are you ending sarcastically? See, I do not get it, because you seem to be trying to prove a point to me about whether or not he was tortured and as I have already stated once, I am not debating that, am I?

Please, could you clarify what it is you are trying to respond to me with, exactly?

Be happy to. First of all, nothing personal directed at you, sorry for the confusion. I put the Wiki reference in there to show you he had actually or broken his arms and a leg by ejecting from the plane, not crashing with it. And for the numerous "doubters" on ATS that do not recognize Wiki as a reliable source, I put the disclaimer in there as a means of trolling.

reply to post by TheRooster


Ah, ok, I appreciate all the real specifics on how he injured himself. All I ever meant, if anyone was reading what I had responded to was that the statement that he had been injured was proof he was tortured was a fallacy since he did crash into a lake first so there is plenty of reason for him to be injured outside of torture. That is all I meant, thanks for getting so specific about it.

They need to try and create plausable deniabilty about his having tardive disclinesia causing his twitching and blinking.

Anti Psychotic medicines cause the disease, they are used to control the horrors of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. My dad had it.

McCain does not belong near stressful situations. He will fly into an offensive or fall apart if over stressed. He is a danger to the whole human race if he becomes president.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


To deny the man medical attention isn't necessarily torture either, but it is inhumane. What kind of man do you think YOU would be, if back in '91 you were shot down over Iraq, denied medical attention after landing in the euphrates or tigris rivers with 2 broken arms and a broken leg, and then kept hostage as a POW until 1996?

I do not agree with Sen McCain on a lot of the issues, and hopefully you'll agree with me that if the last 8 years had not included 3 wars, the downing of the twin towers, the trampling of the constitiution by a RINO Bush administration, and a near complete meltdown of the economy, quite a few people would have a little more respect for this man than they currently do, perhaps even the respect he rightfully deserves.

What I find interesting is the assertion that this guard really has nothing to gain by lying. I'm sorry, I don't remember who wrote it, but it is about as ignorant a statement as one can write. 14 days before a presidential election in which one of the participants is a former POW, and someone wants to parade a former guard of said POW around saying John McCain was not tortured, not once in 5 years. Or if he was tortured, it was the equivalent of slapping him with a wet noodle? I'm sorry, I will not allow that kind of insult to go unnoticed. The brave men and women in uniform who write checks (on our behalf) to uncle sam for an amount up to and incliuding their life, will always have an advocate in me.

It has been said that what drives this man's love of country was born in his captivity during those 5 years. Somthing tells me if it was a camp out, the last thing he would want to do is run for a thankless job, serving a thankless populace, especially when he has 8 homes, a hot wife, and $400 million in the bank. And this coming from a man who will probably not vote for him. Hmmmmm Maybe I should re-think that.