McCain was not tortured, PoW guard claims

McCain was not tortured, PoW guard claims

www.guardian.co.uk

The Republican US presidential candidate John McCain was not tortured during his captivity in North Vietnam, the chief prison guard of the jail in which he was held has claimed.

In an interview with the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Nguyen Tien Tran acknowledged that conditions in the prison were "tough, though not inhuman". But, he added: "We never tortured McCain. On the contrary, we saved his life, curing him with extremely valuable medicines that at times were not available to our own wounded."

(visit the link for the full news article)

This does raise a few questions, regardless of political affiliation.

Who are we to believe - a man who has shown he is quite prepared to get into the gutter to further his ambitions?

Or an ex prison guard with little or nothing to gain or lose by saying this.

I have no doubt that the conditions were tough for POW's, but does this amount to torture?
Especially in light of gitmo, where waterboarding is seen as "vigorous questioning"

McCain knows the real answer to this - maybe in his mind it WAS torture, but according to the ex guard, it wasn't.

A matter of perception then?

Or another lie.........

www.guardian.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by budski


From the sounds of the situation, they did save his life. I don't doubt the validity of that statement. He was pretty seriously injured in his crash.

Now, I know that he has made mention of his time as a POW but I can't remember him specifically saying that he was tortured. I am not trying to stir up anything, just saying that I haven't ever heard him specifically say it.

I don't follow his every word though, so he very well may say it a lot. Do you know if he has specifically said that he was tortured?

reply to post by budski


This is a pathetic article, and I'm surprised you've given it an ounce of credibility.

"I never lost him from sight. I was frightened a doctor or nurse might do him harm."

So he wasn't scared guards or military personnel might do McCain harm, but those evil doctors and nurses really needed to be watched.

As to why McCain, then 36, left North Vietnam with prematurely grey hair, Tran denied it was because of mistreatment. "It's that in prison you think too much."

Originally posted by budski
This does raise a few questions, regardless of political affiliation.

Actually, it appears you raise them BECAUSE of political affiliation.

How else is one to explain the simpleton view you have brought to this subject?

Originally posted by budski
Who are we to believe - a man who has shown he is quite prepared to get into the gutter to further his ambitions?

Or an ex prison guard with little or nothing to gain or lose by saying this.

Right. Because people are in a habit of admitting their wrong doing (particularly international crimes) or being affiliated with it.

That's some astounding logic, there, budski.

Put those sharp tools back in the shed, you might hurt somebody.

Originally posted by budski
I have no doubt that the conditions were tough for POW's, but does this amount to torture?
Especially in light of gitmo, where waterboarding is seen as "vigorous questioning"

McCain knows the real answer to this - maybe in his mind it WAS torture, but according to the ex guard, it wasn't.

A matter of perception then?

Or another lie.........

:shk:





Is this your attempt at denying ignorance?



[edit on 14-10-2008 by loam]

reply to post by loam


I can only ask you the same words, is this the way you deny ignorance... You dont have any proof to dismiss this mans version so all you are doing are slandering him instead, plus all the people who took some time to read the news piece..

Best regards.

Loke.

What is it with ATS and taking the word of communist bad guys? This guy was a torturer! He's obviously going to lie about the actions he perpetrated! Between ATS and ABC news, I'm really starting to wonder whats going on with people.

I mean, the media and left wing democrats still whine today about "swift boating" and yet the same people push propaganda like this as fact. It such a staggering display of hypocrisy.

Originally posted by Loke.
reply to post by loam

 

I can only ask you the same words, is this the way you deny ignorance... You dont have any proof to dismiss this mans version so all you are doing are slandering him instead, plus all the people who took some time to read the news piece..

Wait, what? You are taking a story that assumes a communist torturer is telling the truth and your accusing Loam of slander? I suppose your guys principles go right out the window when you're slandering a Republican huh?

[edit on 14-10-2008 by Marcus Calpurnius]

Look I ain't really into McCain however just being captured by the NVA and being there involved in the Vietnam war in my mind would be torture enough.
The circumstances of it I really don't care to know.
I know what someone close to me went through and how it messed up there life and I wouldn't wish going to the Vietnam war on my worst enemy.

reply to post by loam


If you don't like the article, write to the guardian.

I simply asked questions - I drew no conclusions, and frankly, I'm a little concerned by your attitude, which seems partisan to say the least.

we deny ignorance by asking these questions - not by attempting to ridicule those who ask them.

reply to post by budski


Oh common, you drew no conclusions? You were definitely trying to steer the readers in to a conclusion. Let me ask you a question. What exactly gives this guy an ounce of credibility? Where did McCain get all his injuries if not from torture? Why in the world would a guy who perpetrated that torture admit to it?

You aren't denying ignorance, you're perpetuating it.

reply to post by Marcus Calpurnius


"The Communistic bad guy" what in the world makes you think he is a Communist? and even more what makes you think he is a bad guy? did you ever wondered if this guard was drafted into a war he did not want to fight but was demanded to do it anyway? A lot like how a great deal of the US soldiers was drafted into the same war they could not emphasize with.

i have to remind you that it was US who attacked Vietnam and if the same thing was to happen to my country i would go out and fight to but not for ideologic reasons but for my right not to be supressed by a foreign government.

But i recon that you properly feel the same about those bad islamic people or am i wrong?

Best regards.

Loke.


PS.

No matter if Mccoin was tortured or not i can only say ofcourse its not ok to torture people, and the same goes for all those POW which are currently being held in cages around the world by the coalition of the willing.

[edit on 14-10-2008 by Loke.]

I am no major lover of the Republican party although I do love the Republic as McCain did back in the conflict in Viet Nam. Of course this is the place where McCain underwent extreme torture after being shot down and then, once discovering who he was, they held him as a pawn.


I would compare the relationship between McCain and his captors to that of a wife beater and his family.

The wife beater denies he ever hurts his wife or children, he will sware on his Bible or Koran (or whatever) that he "never laid a hand on them" yet the immediate and the lasting effects of the beatings as well as the psychological effect is laid bare for all to see in years to come.

Torturers and prisoners have a similar, not quite the same, but similar dynamic.

The captor must depend upon the torturer for food amd shelter. The captor understands that if he should diss the torturer in any way things may not be pleasant.

It may simply be bad food served, or isolation, or no food, or if he has broken some unseen rule he may be beat.

The torturer feels he is "taking care" of the prisoners and walks in denial of his actions or justifies his actions as nessasary.

Remeber we never torture anybody either nor did the Roman Catholic church, or the Baptists etc...

The dynamic is the same. The game is played as it has always been played.

I watch John McCain closely and I see the result of torture in everything he does....from the way he glances around him when trying to relax to his public discourse.

Or an ex prison guard with little or nothing to gain or lose by saying this.

Remember....this ex prison gaurd was our enemy. He veiws us in this fashion as we must veiw his word and deed.

reply to post by Marcus Calpurnius


McCain broke both arms and a leg when he was shot down. Not during his time as a POW.

reply to post by Loke.

I cant beleive what I'm reading from you people. I guarantee you same people have a field day on people like Rumsfield and bush, yet a communist POW camp torture isn't such a bad guy.

Loke and Budinski, what are your opinions of the Swift Boat veterans for truth? Those guys get slaughtered on these forums, yet this torture earns your respect and trust. Simply amazing.

reply to post by Karlhungis


You don't know what you're talking about. Most of his injuries are from constant beatings, breaking of his bones and being hung up by his arms. I cant beleive the complete lack of facts in this tread.


[edit on 14-10-2008 by Marcus Calpurnius]

Originally posted by Marcus Calpurnius
Loke and Budinski, what are your opinions of the Swift Boat veterans for truth? Those guys get slaughtered on these forums, yet this torture earns your respect and trust. Simply amazing.

[edit on 14-10-2008 by Marcus Calpurnius]

I do not condone nor do i respect torture, less countries going to war for oil and development in military industry...

ANd for the swift boat vets. i can honest say i dont know what you are talking about, i am not US citizen i live in a small EU country so i have not read around swift boat vets. in my history class. But please feel free to post a link to educate me since my brain always craves for more information.

Best regards.

Loke.

[edit on 14-10-2008 by Loke.]

reply to post by Karlhungis


He mentioned it quite a lot in his book "Faith of My Fathers" and was quite specific about the torture "breaking" him - which allegedly lead to him signing a confession admitting to "war crimes"

There's another story here from a man who was a POW at the same time, and was there for longer, in which he says that McCain WAS tortured - although for 2 years rather than the 5 1/2 years that McCain maintains he was tortured for.

I don't think there's any doubt POW's were abused - but if it was torture, then so is what goes on at gitmo, abu ghraib etc

We can't afford to have a double standard here - either ALL of it is torture, or none of it is.

reply to post by budski


OK, thanks for the clarification. He doesn't seem to be using it as a focal point of his campaign though. Who knows what really happened. Like Interestingg said, he still spent a large chunk of time in a POW camp and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

Denying Torture

Despite the rather controversial nature of the article, let's please remember where we are and confine our comments to the topic.

Regarding that, members who are interested in additional information on the subject may wish to have a look at some of the many other sources available:

Google: Hanoi Hilton

reply to post by Karlhungis


Nor would I - although it hass to be said that there are differing accounts as to how much time he actually spent in the same camps as the rest of the POW's when the North Vietnamese found out who he was.

He has also flipflopped on the issue of torture which is hot at the moment - one minute he didn't believe it was happening, the next minute he didn't think waterboarding, beating, sleep deprivation etc was actually torture, and the next he said that "torture works, because it worked on me"

So, if it was torture when it happened to him, why isn't it torture now that it's happening to others?

If by his own definition gitmo etc are not torturing people, then he WASN'T tortured when the same thing happened to him.

I put that rather clumsily, but I'm sure you get my drift.

reply to post by budski



Honestly, and this coming from someone who is NOT a McCain supporter at all, it doesn't matter. He was a POW being held by what has been well documented as a very brutal regime. As McCain and Obama keep saying, I would look at the record of the people in question. Their history. Well, history seems to side WITH McCain on this one regardless of what this guard says.

Then again, it really doesn't matter.

In my opinion all information obtained through the use of torture can not be used, since a human under these kinds of circumstances will tell anything their punishers wants to hear.

Even Mccoin says he did that, so he knows it wont work, but still he does not go against the usage of it....

Strange world we live in.

Best regards.

Loke.

Ps

Thanks for the Google tip!