Jewish 'modesty patrols' sow fear in Israel

In Israel, there is this problem of Orthodox Jews clashing with Jews who are thinking neo thinkers.

It seems that the Orthodox Jews want to commit to the Torah, while the Neo-Jews want to adapt.

For instance, when they have Gay parades in Israel, the Orthodox opposes it, while the other side advocates the freedom to be Gay/Lesbian.

This type of problem exists in all societies where old thought meets new tradtion.

Look at your own examples. One is from 2006!

To show that these events have been going on for some time.

Can you find 4 cases that made it in the news in last year?

The awareness center link i gave you shows 4 cases in 2007.The oldest one goes back to 2001.

For more information look here,
www.ynet.co.il...

As for Maccabees revolt - it happened more then 2000 years ago. England had civil war several hundred years ago - will you also use it as an example of a possibility of civil war in England now? I mean monarchy is still there, some people do not like it - as i witnessed on this board.

You claimed that such things were quiet,i've shown that it hasn't always been that way.How far back in history it happened does not matter.Its a blip on the radar.And,yes,there is always possibility of civil war.

The tension between different religious/secular groups exists in Israel or in Judaism in general. As in other country, as in other religion. In US there are closed religious communities too, and there is tension between those and government/other US citizens. There were violent clashes too. And?

Very true.The difference?
Those who believe that they are God's 'chosen people' have shown what they are capable of doing to get and keep the land promised to them.(Jews may not use the term,'chosen people' but God does throughout the Scriptures.)

reply to post by Harlequin

but how many times does the MSM report all the good things christians , muslims and jews do? they don`t unless its a real slow news day - but when we have stoning (notice the correlation to muslim extremists there as well) of unchaste women then its headline news.

2 reasons.

Conflicts sell papers,get people's attention;Compassion takes 2nd place.Sad to say.

It is these small (extremists) groups who bring around great changes.I good recent example of this is the Taliban in Afghanistan.

reply to post by Memysabu

Their culture is being influenced by ours, and not to long ago they WERE throwing stones. This is what happens when you give technology to a more primitive society that did not invent it. Islam has the same thing happening in parts of their countries. They had sand and camels and then we went over their for oil and made them rich.

I understand what you're trying to say,but the Jews are hardly primitive.The land of Israel has been part of several leading empires in history;Assyrian,Egyptian,Roman,Persian etc.They also had their own empire where building,trade etc flourished.

Sometimes I wish all of these fundamentalist pinheads would set aside what little differences they actually have and form a unified front.Then we could easily recognize who most of the enemies of humanity are.These people are easily corralled into fanatical fervor by governments and used against relatively sane people all of the time,and without them,we would not have as many problems in this world.Israel,the Taliban, Scientologists, Pentacostals,Athiests,all of these freaks of consciousness who pretend to know and use violence and culture to destroy society will be called out from now on.Everybody should join in one unified voice,"STOP THIS ASSAULT ON OUR SENSIBILITIES NOW AND FOREVER!!!!KEEP YOUR BELIEFS TO YOUR SELF!!!I wish.I know I will.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge

Well, point taken. Then i simply fail to understand why those people that are threatened do not cooperate very well with police? I heard not once prominent and influencing rabbies stating that this is wrong.

Well the article says this about the issue of "why they are being allowed to continue";

news.yahoo.com...

Religious vigilantes operate in a society that has granted their community influence well beyond its numbers — partly out of a commitment to revive the great centers of Jewish scholarship destroyed in the Holocaust, but also because the Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics.

and also this;

But the rabbis are afraid to condemn them, says Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, another community member.

"They can't come out against zealots who champion modesty. Here and there they write against violence, but the militants ultimately set the tone," he said.

So some of the reason the Rabbis do not speak out is pure self interest. They want to benefit from the influence these radicals have, whether they agree with their positions or not. And they fear the repercussions of speaking against them.

In a more general way, I am not sure why the extreme ends of any spectrum gain so much influence. Here in America too, the radical fundamentalists make more noise than their actual numbers would suggest they should. (So do the radical liberals so that I dont start an ideological war here) For the average person, there is nothing to gain from letting a radical set the tone of your culture. And much to fear from it.

It reminds me of this saying;

en.wikipedia.org...

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up." - a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller

There seems to be something about human nature that makes us mistake loudness, and vehemence for "rightness." If someone is assertive enough in their belief, is seems to make many of us shy about saying, "I dont believe that way." Perhaps because the majority of us are more in line with what seems to be the truth about the limits of understanding. We admit we arent sure what the right thing to do is.

It seems as though we think in ourselves that our lack of "sureness" is a weakness, when perhaps, like Socrates said, it is the only wisdom that can be had. Perhaps this fear that our uncertainty or lack of firm conviction is a weakness, rather than a strength, makes us reluctant to contradict the VERY certain, the radical, when in truth their certainty says less about their grasp of the "truth" and more about their level of delusion that absolute truth can be knowable.

You can probably conclude that the Jews and the Muslims aren't much and i say "Much" God dammit, different from each other.

reply to post by Salvatore_Rubberface

You can probably conclude that the Jews and the Muslims aren't much and i say "Much" God dammit, different from each other.

I personally take it as a compliment.Much much better then "sons of apes and monkeys". I suggest you to take one step further in the right direction and to add that both those groups aren't much different from humans in general. I know that it is a hard step , but take a look on this planet in general and try to find one place where there is no hate/violence. If you do find it - please , tell me about it.

reply to post by jakyll


I said - things are silent for centuries. Not for thousands of years...
As for chosen/not chosen issue - everyone has skeletons in his historic closet. Was Roman conquest of ,say, Gaul any better? Current Italy is to blame? In Russian-Chechen war hundreds of thousands dies. Who considered himself chosen? I do not mention other conflicts that brought so much death and destruction. We are all "Chosen", then. As human race. I take a bus with ultra-religious, among others, very often. Not witnessed any conflict so far. You know why? Because aggressive and abusive individuals are always in minority, but somehow they seem to represent the whole group. Are all teenagers messes up , drunk and hooligans? Chosen, i say. All of them. To live here, among us.

PLEASE VISIT THIS LINK

IF AMERICANS KNEW: WHAT EVERY AMERICAN SHOULD KNOW ABOUT ISRAEL/PALISTINE

This is yet another example of why we need to let Israel out from under our protection. They terrorize the Palistinian people, and all of the middle east, then make them out to be the terrorists when one can't take the oppression anymore. What would Americans do if China gave Muslims Miami because a book written 2000 years ago said it is their land. How would we react to the people who gave them land that wasn't theirs to give, then helped the occupation continue. We would fight back any way we could. Instead the Zionist owned media will have you believe they hate us because we vote for our leaders.

It makes me sick that we continue to back them, though they do nothing but put our country in danger.

Why is the largest lobby in Washington a foriegn country's? Why does 100% support for Israel ring true in both parties? Why does Bush have duel Israeli citizens in his cabinet? Why do we back a country who has been caught spying on us over and over again? Why do we continue to give them 6.8 million a day to fight Palistinians? Why do we sell them cheap guns so they can turn around and sell them for profit to contries like Georgia? Why was the quote "Wipe out Israel's Zionist leaders" spun by Zionist media to "Wipe Israel off the map"? WHAT AMERICAN THAT ISN'T JEWISH, WHICH IS ONLY 2% OF THE COUNTRY, ACTUALLY GIVES A DAMN WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LAND STEALING TERRORISTS?????

DUMP ISRAEL, SAVE AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by bjbrown61
and as in the case of the Mormans; they tell them who they can or can't marry

Please don't take this wrong, but I was raised a Mormon (correct spelling). I have since changed religions, but I hate the fact so many lies are told about such innocuous, decent people.

What you stated is not now nor has it ever been true. There are no such controls. Mormon women are of course encouraged to marry other Mormons, but it is not enforced in any way. Members from marriages where one partner only is Mormon is quite normal. My Father for instance was not Mormon. It never caused any sort of issue whatsoever and he was treated as a normal part of the community.

What you have done I'm afraid is picked up a book written by a liar in a bookstore that caters to Christian Radicals or you don't know the difference between the tiny group of fake Mormons that are sometimes in the news with the real Church. That "Reformed" group are NOT Mormons and never have been Mormons. It is tiny group of bizarre nut jobs that decided to use the name. The real Mormon church has many millions of members and is a moderate and in no way radical Church.

When I first left the church, I went into a Bookstore that catered to radical Pentecostals and Charismatics and bought an armload of books about Mormons. Nearly everything in them was a lie of some sort. In fairness a couple were accurate and well done, but too many were just some hateful liar spewing venom. A couple were clearly pure fiction made up by some really bad person.

Like I said, I'm no longer a Mormon, but I just can't let the lies pass unchallenged. Whether knowingly or not, you lied.

After the coming remaking of the United States, Israel will suddenly find itself begging for those Billions of dollars that we 'used' to give to it; because quite frankly, Israel is not worth Billions of Dollars in Foreign or any other form of aid. All countries that want aid from the New United States are going to have to conform, legally and societally to the Revised Constitution of the United States.

Every religion has extremism in some form or another, though I strongly agree with the comment about them picking on the weaker as most bullies do.

Originally posted by Blaine91555

What you stated is not now nor has it ever been true. There are no such controls. Mormon women are of course encouraged to marry other Mormons, but it is not enforced in any way.

Well, in all fairness, he may have been talking about the fringe Mormon groups where very young women are bullied into marrying old men.

It DOES seem to be the truth in compounds like those run by Warren Jeffs. After all, he is in jail because a jury of his peers found him an accomplice to rape for forcing a young girl to marry and have sex with someone she did not want to.

www.foxnews.com...

ST. GEORGE, Utah — A jury found polygamous-sect leader Warren Jeffs guilty Tuesday of being an accomplice to rape for performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin.

However, it isnt logical to attribute the crimes and thinking of radical members of any group to all the members of a group. All people for the environment are not crazed eco-nazis. All Muslims are not crazed terrorists. All Christians are not crazed people contriving Armageddon. All Americans are not warmongers because some Americans are warmongers.

"Some members of x are y" does not equal "ALL members of x are y."

Even the issue that is truly at hand here, of radical Jews committing crimes to enforce morality, is just a tiny fraction of the Jewish population even in the Orthodox areas where they are behaving this way.


It is just another reminder of why radicalism is dangerous to the larger group. Like it or not, it is the radicals and extremists who are not only going to set the tone for your own culture, but they are the ones who are going to be what other people see when they look at your culture. Very few countries for instance are attacked because of the average behavior of all the citizens, they are attacked because of the behavior of the most radical members of the country.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


We should stop going of topic. I think I did acknowledge the small group who wrongly use the name. When I went about buying books however, that was one of many lies attributed to the Mormon Church. I've stood toe to toe with people who have never entered a Mormon Church as they told these lies and they won't back down, even when exposed. It's like part of their brain shuts down when they find out they have been taught lies.

To bring this back on topic, no group or church, including Jews, should be criticized for the action of a few nut cases that ALL churches attract. This article is interesting but Israels only responsibility would be to arrest and try those who commit crimes. I'd imagine Assault and Battery is a crime there.

Warren Jeffs is not a Mormon nor has he ever been a member in the past by the way. He led a tiny cult group that had an unfortunate similarity in their name.

[edit on 10/4/2008 by Blaine91555]

In some really Ultra-Orthodox communities, yeah, stuff like this happens. Even in parts of America (to a lesser extent). I think as long as this type of control doesn't reach to those with differing beliefs, it's fine. For example, pornography is allowed in most of Israel. So is, say, ham. You can legally have ham. But these people would go to great extents to protect the beliefs and sanctity of their community, so they would do things that may seem extreme.

Like, okay, for a metaphor: My dad lets me and my mom keep ham or bacon or shrimp in the house but he won't eat it or touch it. He won't buy it, though, and if he's with us in the supermarket he doesn't let us buy it. We have to be sneaky or just not eat it. Of course, I am sneaky, because pigs and shellfish taste good. And because I'm not Jewish.

In essence, if you go to Israel and wear a red shirt or let your hair down as a woman, you won't be beaten. If you are part of an ultra-Orthodox community there and purposely disobey their stated set of religious laws, you might be.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Blaine, I am sorry to have included the good people in the Mormon Church (and for spelling Mormon wrong) in my post that stated the errors of those extreme practictioners of their faith. I could have stated it clearer.

Here is an article I found on Warren Jeffs that clearly states there is a difference in the main Mormon church versus the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints.

www.npr.org/templates/story.php?storyID=4629320

Warren Jeffs and the FLDS
by Wade Goodwyn, Howard Berkes and Amy Walters
May 3, 2005
Polygamists on Utah-Arizona Border Under Scrutiny May 4, 2005
Texas Town Wary of Polygamist Sect's Arrival
NPR.org, May 3, 2005 •

Upon the death of his father, 49-year-old Warren Jeffs took over as prophet of the FLDS, or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in September of 2002. Jeff's father, Rulon T. Jeffs, had been the group's prophet for the previous 15 years. He died at the age of 92, leaving an estimated 75 widows and 65 children to mourn him.

The nearly two-decade tenure of father and son has split the polygamist community on the Utah-Arizona border. After taking power in 1986, Rulon Jeffs slowly abolished the seven-member Priesthood Council that had previously governed the sect. Rulon Jeffs eventually claimed a "One Man Rule" and as a result, part of the group split away and founded their own polygamist settlement nearby.

According to former followers, the prophet is considered to be God's mouthpiece on earth. It is believed that God speaks directly to Warren Jeffs to reveal His will. And through the prophet, God directs which male members are worthy of entry into heaven (females are invited into heaven by satisfied husbands). Jeffs is also the only person who can perform marriages, and it is through him that wives are assigned to their husbands. Pleasing the prophet can result in loyal members being rewarded with one or more wives. Wives are considered to "belong" to their husbands for eternity.

In order to reach the highest degree of glory in heaven, members of the FLDS believe that each man must have at least three wives. A significant means of prophet power is derived from his ability to punish followers by reassigning their wives, children and homes to another man. Obedience is highly valued, and it is rare for wives to resist reassignment.

The group takes its theology regarding "plural marriages" from the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, better known as the Mormon Church. But under pressure from the U.S. government, church leaders abandoned polygamy in 1890 so that Utah could gain statehood. Polygamists believe that's when the Mormon Church strayed from the path of righteousness. Likewise, members of the FLDS are not welcome in Mormon congregations, and Mormons who are found practicing polygamy are excommunicated.

Nearly all property in Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, including residential property, is owned by a church trust and controlled by Warren Jeffs. According to former vice-mayor and Colorado City Councilman Richard Holm, the trust is estimated to be worth in excess of $100 million. Holm also estimates that Warren Jeffs has more than 50 wives. But exactly how many wives, or where Jeffs is currently, nobody outside his inner circle seems to know.

There are widely varying estimates of how many people practice polygamy in North America -- 20,000 to 50,000 and more -- but the secrecy of such groups makes a definitive number elusive.


I had no intent to lie about anything, that is not in my nature.

I also have read the book by Elissa Wall called, "Stolen Innocence". She was a member of the FLDS as was her family.

It is true that all religions have their radicals. I'm afraid it is in human nature.

Or more precisely, the potential for radicalism is in human nature. Or we wouldn't be threatened by the radicalism of the extreme Muslims. All it takes is a few apples to spoil the whole bushel. Look how wide spread radicals are throughout the world (the Sudan genocide, Hamas, Taliban, Ku Klux Klan, Hindu extremists, animal rights and environmental extremists, etc.). Just google extremists and you will find an almost unending list that circles the globe.

The real issue here is a lack of an age of Exploration and a world that will only become denser and more crowded before it does.

This is the kind of thread where everyone and thier mother is going to get bashed

and the truth is none of these people are doing anything wrong.

A struggle for unique identity will never go away, culture, religion or anything else...

also

niether will uniculture ever work

It's not possible for us all to be the same

What really if in an inclusive place, is wrong with warren jeffries, If the rest of the nation wasn't around, and the comon practice was to marry young and tv and the world wasn't there to SAY it's wrong... it would be an Honor to be chosen by a leader to be one of several wives

Likewise for Islam or Judaism or American Culture or Communism...


People often say why spend money on Space?

My response is...

It's our only hope...

varied diverse cultures packed together and forced to deal with eachother have NO solution for peace

The alternative is a generic culture and lack of beliefs and faith, it will be just as bloody when people rebel from that.

A world without a frontier is a dangerous place, impossible to have your own beliefs ad impossible to live in conformity either.

Globalism needs to change if we are to survive this period, social law needs to be local and left alone and not judged until such a point as we leave the planet.

There just is no solution, we all are never going to "just get along"

It should be a prime goal of human civilization to expand into colonization


Many reactions will say it's not possible

My response would be:

This Bailout 700 BILLION

Equal to 72 YEARS of Nasa's current budget.

Our Military Expenditure in total since The war began

Equal to aprox, 800 years of Nasa's Budget



So we fight eachother over the kinds of lives we wish to live WHY?

Those numbers are just america

7 Trillion in debt on what?

7 Trillion into colonization would have comfortably done the job... for Mars, maybe Venus too...

How difficult would it be to create a greenhouse effect on Mars or reverse it on Venus?

It could be done, we have and are without intention... doing it to Earth right now..altering the climate...

So we fight, over what?

a strip of land? If a girl should marry at what age?

Do we fight because... it's Wrong? Or because we have to live next door to it and it's not OUR particular way of life?

I think we all know it's not right and wrong so much as...how it reflects on affects us out of proximity...

Religion is one of the biggest plagues of mankind. It's all phoney nonsense. Everyone needs to go out and see Bill Maher's "Religulous" now!!

Money and the corruption that goes hand in hand with it is the other biggest plague.

When will mankind drop his stupid illusions of salvation and start doing something to better himself, like explore the universe?

[edit on 10/5/2008 by pjslug]