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What would justify the overthrow of the American Government?

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posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by Wolf321
After all the events that have occurred in the last 7 years (domestic spying, executive orders that ignore the constitution, abuse by those in authority, and the government bail outs, etc.) What do you feel would justify a violent overthrow? At what point do you feel the government has stopped acting for and in the interest of the people?


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

There is your answer, directly from the people who started the American Revolution. Emphasis is my own.




posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by sir_chancealot
 


Thank you for offering here what T. Jefferson said was "... to place before mankind the common sense of the subject, in terms so plain and firm as to command their assent, and to justify ourselves in the independent stand... "

To echo his statement, the issues that have justified a new revolution have been plastered in the headlines over the last several years.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by elysiumfire
Hi There,

Being a Brit, I would hope you welcome some observations and comments I'd like to make concerning the 'OP's' question on 'what would justify the overthrow of the (currently incumbent) American administration'?

You are not out to overthrow the administration, but to seek a return to Constitutional values. There is no need to offer violence on the streets of America, but by all means peacefully protest: in fact, it is essential that you do...in your millions, time and time again. Doing so may run the risk of running the gauntlet of violence meted out to the protester by the authorities, but alas, that is what you are going to have to face.

Let the world see that the American people are doing whatever is necessary (short of being violent) to repatriate themselves to the values of their Constitution. You will see a wave of empathy engulf the planet that has never been witnessed. The problem (from the foreign perspective) is that Americans are perceived not to understand that what transpires in America ripples out to affect other countries. Your apathy sends out the wrong signal, rather than being in the same boat as some other countries, you are perceived to sanction whatever your administration deems fit for its own benefit...hence you are criticised.

The time of election is almost upon you, and is the time (the all-pervading moment) to be most vociferous in the loudest voice, shouting out as one nation for the principles upon which it was foundered. Let your feet thunder down the roads to the Whitehouse, let the rumble underfoot shake and tremble the theives in that hallowed building...what have you got to lose now, but the proud name America? If you do nothing, you will surely lose it. The dream is over, awaken now to the nightmare and shake it from your hearts, but above all be not timid...be not a 'fair-weather patriot', rejoice in the cause that is now your greatest purpose...save your bloody country!

Remember, you don't get mad...you get even...oh so even! What are you up against, an overwhelming adversary? Never! Not even in your wildest imaginings. They are just crooks who must now face the people and the world for what they have done. Do not allow them a profit, or a gate by which to escape. If this is your bleakest hour, then it is also the time when the tide turns...all you have to do is reach out and grasp the hour. Do it as a nation or die as one.

Best wishes


WoW....that was very well put. It gave me chills. We need more people that think as you do in this country.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by hILB3rT
WoW....that was very well put. It gave me chills. We need more people that think as you do in this country.


And what good did "protesting" at the Republican National Convention do? Anything other than get people arrested?

Now imagine if those thousands had rifles, shotguns, and pistols, AND WERE WILLING TO USE THEM. What do you think the result would have been?

When the pot finally "boils over" as it were, there isn't going to be a little spilled on the stove top. It is going to be an explosion that wrecks the whole kitchen. (I hope my metaphor made sense.
)



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 08:28 PM
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What would justify an overthrow?

Giving away a Trillion dollars to buddies as a going away party for Bush.

I think that says it all, plus a second line.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by Cyberbian]



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 08:47 PM
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SirChancealot:

Now imagine if those thousands had rifles, shotguns, and pistols, AND WERE WILLING TO USE THEM. What do you think the result would have been?


Their total annihilation! Ok, so you get arrested, it's a lot better than getting maimed or dead. At least you live to protest another day...at least you get to be a nuisance again...and that is the point of peaceful protest. Peaceful civil disobedience is the way to go. It may not carry with it the macho image of a Rambo, but it does win the social principle.

Going onto the street with guns will immediately terminate the cause, make false the rights of the people, and be the incubator of further violence. If that's the way you want to go, by all means go for it...you'll not have my support, nor that of much of the world. What is that humorous statement - they can take my gun when they prise it from my cold dead fingers...they will, everytime. Your greatest weapon is your Constitution (as foundered) and your resolve. It will awaken the conscience in those whom are used as tools to oppress and suppress you...it will take time, it will take social atrocity...but it will awaken.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 03:21 AM
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reply to post by elysiumfire
 

Ely you are on the right track on all your post on this thread. I wish that the citizens of the U.S. were as knowledgeable about their rights, and that I was as eloquent. I am sure that there are high ranking officers in our military that know that the Constitution is under siege from threats of domestic origin. All branches of the military swear and sign an oath to protect the Constitution from all threats. The only way that they can do that is by getting home and overseeing the restructuring of the government. It becomes even more obvious why we are involved in a war on Terror, and not one or another country. Our guys that are to protect us from being destroyed from within, are based all over the planet because we are being told the threat of terrorism is everywhere. I can't imagine why there are still so many people that can't see what needs to be done. We The People need to wake up the ones of us that insist on supporting the corrupt legislation, judicial and executive branches of our government and demand that they assist in kickiing the crooks and their cronies off of this continent without any money or benefits.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 03:38 AM
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the time is in November for all of the americans to take power in their own hands and vote against the continuation of the presidency as we have seen it for the last years ...
enough people, both US and others, have been killed as a consequence of the lecacy he was making, in honor of their blood the blood shattering should stop and the US should become a country bringing peace to the world again - as you brought to Europe in WW2 for which we remain gratefull - and not as the creator of armed conflicts



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 07:36 AM
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reply to post by elysiumfire
 


After reading your posts, I sit here with a lump in my throat and tears streaming down my face. They are magnificent and remind me of the writings of our Founding Fathers. Full of wisdom and even though, you are not American, I sense that your heart, as so many of ours, is breaking at the terrible mess this once wonderful country has become.

Hope and desperation - that's where I am.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to inthesticks and elysiumfire
 


I am pleased that you both feel that people should be more vocal and protest. However, it may be a little off the topic question, that is unless your answer is 'never.'

I agree protesting and voting are the intended way of dealing with a government that isn't representing the people or the interest of the nation. If neither of those are effective any longer, what do you do? If the rules and rights of the constitution started getting ignored, or removed, and election results are predetermined, do you continue to stand outside yelling at ears that will not hear? What happens when that right is suspended?

The founders did put in place procedures and rights to ensure the people had the ability to change the government when it went awry. However, they warned that the people could screw the whole thing up as well. Based on their actions, they feel that there comes a point when armed conflict was the only way to obtain freedom, despite the size of the enemy.


[edit on 24-9-2008 by Wolf321]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 11:25 AM
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The things that have happened in the last 20 years in our federal government would have IMHO caused our fore-fathers to re-take their country. The best part of this whole deal is that our government officials are so drunk on money and power that they are over-throwing themselves right now... Soon our government and everything else here will be owned by the Chinese... They like corrupt politicians, they used them for entertainment purposes and for organ donations...



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 11:44 AM
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reading ATS i'm sometimes left scratching my head as to what planet some people are on.
armed revolt!!!!
are you crazy, who do you think is going to join this insurrection to snatch back the constitution? you think these wonderful american patriots are likely to miss an episode of their favorite show in order to shoot at cops? yeah right.

what will actually happen is that you'll end up another timmy mcveigh, or worse, a school shooter. catch yourselves on.

if most of the people won't even bother to get up off the couch to go vote, if they won't go protest, if they can't even be bothered to write a bloody e-mail and send it to their congressman, then how in the name of the good lord almighty do you expect to inspire them to go out and put their lives at risk for an ideal they don't know about and probably don't have the education to understand?

people will revolt when their children start dying of starvation, and probably not before that. if you want a new government you'll just have to do it the normal way and protest/vote/run for office.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by pieman
 


I must have made the question too confusing. You and many other people have not answered the question as to what would justify the people to physically overthrow the government. While the points you bring up are interesting ideas that I have thought about, I do not want to debate tactics, likelihood of participation, or alternative means for government change.

Also, I didn't quite get your point when you said,

what will actually happen is that you'll end up another timmy mcveigh, or worse, a school shooter. catch yourselves on.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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my post is a post born of frustration, your OP did suggest to me that you were encouraging violent overthrow, the edit was a good idea. nothing, IMHO would justify it, you live in a functioning democracy so it is not necessary. if it is not necessary then it s unjustifiable and frankly, it's evil and abhorrent.


Originally posted by Wolf321
Also, I didn't quite get your point when you said,

what will actually happen is that you'll end up another timmy mcveigh, or worse, a school shooter. catch yourselves on.


what i mean is, even if you were justified, which at the end of the day is just a matter of opinion, if you attempted to start or participate in a violent insurrection you would be labeled as a lone wolf domestic terrorist or worse still, a complete lunatic monster that spent too much time on ATS and watching the matrix.

i'm not saying the label wouldn't be accurate, soit also means that if you go around looking or waiting for the insurrection, attempting to find justification for one, some day you'll convince yourself or others that it is actually justifiable and end up doing something stupid and/or insane.

catch yourself on just means pull your head out of your back side.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by pieman]

[edit on 24-9-2008 by pieman]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by pieman
nothing, IMHO would justify it, you live in a functioning democracy so it is not necessary.


This is where we start to get at the heart of the matter. Myself and others feel that things have come to a point that we are no longer a functioning democracy. Not to say that there are no elections etc. Simply that it's all a show. The last straw IMHO is if the government continues to bail out these poorly run businesses, especially when it includes foreign businesses operating within the USA. Does that mean I am going to get my guns or start manufacturing IED? Certainly not. But I do believe that the government has broken the contract that binds it to the people. Now, when they do try to come to take my guns or my home, let's rock'n'roll.


what i mean is, even if you were justified, which at the end of the day is just a matter of opinion, if you attempted to start or participate in a violent insurrection you would be labeled as a lone wolf domestic terrorist or worse still, a complete lunatic monster that spent too much time on ATS and watching the matrix.


I don't think any person mentally sound would consider a solo revolution. There would be many working together. The government would deem them terrorist, but the people, based upon the targets attacked by the revolutionaries, might have a different opinion.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by Wolf321]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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People are willfully ignorant because they are comfortable.

Take all those comforts away and that is when people start to care.

The economy is going down the tubes and people have their loved ones in Iraq because of political reasons, this has caused many to pay attention- more than usual.

If things continue this way I get the inkling that perhaps not all hope is lost for us who want drastic changes. All we can do is our part by informing people if they find you laughable or not and keep our hopes high.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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depends on what you see as a violent way in overthrowing the government.
Will you go to the white house and congress and start shooting randomly at people?
Or will you gain control over strategic points in the entire US , (blocking in-and export, power plants etc) and push the government on its knee's?

And what about the day after the government has been overthrown, how will you re-unite all the American citizens again or should every state become a seperate entity?

How will you ensure a better - democratic - live?



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by elysiumfire
 


Excellent post. I could not agree more. We do not need an "overthrow." Our system of government is structurally sound. We need to clean house of those who have been undermining and disregarding it. In effect, we do not need a new government, we need to get the parasites and traitors out of the one we already have.

People have been lackadaisical. They have been busy watching rubbish shows on the rubbish TV, buying rubbish products they dont need, and they have been electing "leaders" who are not much more than professional wrestlers yelling in the ring about the latest "grudge match" all the while being in collusion with each other and the corporate raiders who are not only pillaging OUR coffers, but are setting themselves up to pillage the worlds coffers.

I do not think a violent overthrow is necessary, or desirable. What we would end up with is something created in fear that would likely be worse than what our founding fathers set up for us. We need to manage more closely what we have. We need to stop playing right wing/left wing games and pay attention to the bottom line. We need to elect leaders that will monitor and govern corporate greed and mismanagement AND we need to manage our selves. You cant walk around with a blindfold on and not expect to hit a wall at some point.

This is ultimately OUR fault, for electing people we all know are greedy liars. We expect so little of our leaders that we knowingly support people we virtually all agree do not have our best interests at heart. We still have the power to change this with the mechanisms of the democracy we currently have and you do not cure treason with treason.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
This is ultimately OUR fault, for electing people we all know are greedy liars. We expect so little of our leaders that we knowingly support people we virtually all agree do not have our best interests at heart. We still have the power to change this with the mechanisms of the democracy we currently have and you do not cure treason with treason.


It is the fault of the people for getting in this mess. I do disagree that the system still works though. If it did, we would have seen some change within the last 10 years, IMO. It isn't treason when you are supporting and defending the Constitution as well as the principles of liberty.

When those in charge disregard the Constitution and the will of the people, it is they who are guilty of treason.




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