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Why do people laugh at creationists?

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posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 


No, I understood what you were asking. My point was that it is not a contradiction but instead a why.




posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
No, I understood what you were asking. My point was that it is not a contradiction but instead a why.


Not all are contradictions. But that was a contradiction because God claims to be good and loving. If he was good, then he would not have made us the way we are whereby many will spend an eternity in Hell. If he were good then he would never have created Satan, as he would have known once he created him that he would later turn evil. Pure good can not spawn pure evil. If God is omnipotent then he would have known before he created Satan that he would become evil. He could have chosen not to create Satan, or create him different all together. The fact that he created Satan knowing the outcome means that God is not pure good. Also, if God was infinite, he would by definition be good AND evil.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
LOL Oy Vey again.

"LOL Oy Vey" does not constitute an argument.

The "great flood" is nothing more than an ancient fable that was common in ancient cultures, around the time Genesis was written.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by SamuraiDrifter
"LOL Oy Vey" does not constitute an argument.

The "great flood" is nothing more than an ancient fable that was common in ancient cultures, around the time Genesis was written.


LOL You don't say. That was my polite way of saying, 'Oh no not again.' I've had the 'flood debate' so many times and nothing ever changes. So, it's better to just sigh and move on before having another 20 page flood debate where nothing is resolved. Sometimes is easier to bury the dead horse instead of beating it with people who don't even believe the horse ever even lived.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I've before that I believe in determinism which doesn't make room for freewill, I can't see how it is possible for it to be any other way. Neuton's Laws of motion demonstrate how everything physical is predetermined, like billiard balls. The mind is built on more complex laws like electrics and chemistry reacting to external factors. Freewill and choice is an illusion. (on the assumption that God exists) When God made the universe, he made it with a fated path that it could not stray from, and sealed the fates of billions of people.

That's one reason I can't believe the christian idea of God.

P.S. Point acknowledged about the assumptions bit.

P.S.S. If you interpret these not as contradictions then lets us some better ones. Things like:


God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)


P.S.S.S. I had to go and look up the meaning of Oi Vey.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


Oh, I DEFINITELY agree with you about the universe, it's laws, order, mathematical precision, rational intelligibility, etc. I believe that was all set up at the beginning of time... by God. I cannot possibly believe it was by chance. However, we will have to agree to disagree that God works the same way with people. I believe He knows what will happen but does not cause it to happen, like us being helpless puppets on a string. However, there ARE Christians who will agree with you. Free will vs. predestination is a heated debate. I 100% believe in free will, personally.

 


Can God be seen or not? What's the deal. This was an explanation found in the link from the other thread:


CAN GOD BE SEEN?
(NIV) Contradiction 1: The Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Exodus 33:11
(NIV) Contradiction 2: No one has ever seen God... John 1:18

In the first verse, the Hebrew idiom for face to face translates into English as without a mediator. This verse does not imply Moses physically seeing the face of God but that he was able to communicate with God as a man speaks to his friend (as a true friend would not require a go-between for communication). This explanation is given once we read the context:

Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory." And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you... "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Then the Lord said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back. But my face must not be seen." Exodus 33:18-23

God can appear to us as a physical manifestation but He does not appear to us in full glory. The original Hebrew texts mostly differentiate between the type of presence God takes with either the use of the word Elohim (God's glory) or Jehovah (God's literal name). Elohim is usually used in spiritual encounters while Jehovah is usually used in physical encounters, thus eliminating any contradiction.

However, we seem to find ourselves in a bit of a predicament with the verse in Genesis 32:30: So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'It is because I saw God [Elohim] face to face, and yet my life was spared.' Again we see the Hebrew idiom face to face referring to without a mediator. I also see the words "yet my life was spared" as a possible reference to his struggle with God in Genesis 32:22-30 (and not necessarily a reference to him seeing "God's glory"). Lastly, the context shows Jacob struggling with a manifestation of God and not God's glory (Then Jacob was left alone, and a man (iysh) wrestled with him until daybreak).

www.thedevineevidence.com...


That's the way I see it. I believe the manifestation of God makes all the difference. For instance, I believe Jesus was God incarnate- yet people didn't melt at the sight of Him. I believe there is a huge difference between seeing God's full glory from our Human bodies and a manifestation. Just my two cents.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Talk about pick and choose.
I'll point out that the example can be a contradiction 9 different ways (3 squared)


God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)


www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 9/25/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


I replied to your other thread that way we can return this thread to it's regularly scheduled programming of, 'Why do people laugh at creationists.'



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 01:57 PM
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It makes me laugh.... because you guys are never going to agree?

Even if Ashley could prove in theory god exists , you wouldn't believe her proof....


As there is NO proof for god, and nothing anyone can do can change that, and she still believes....



Then my question is.... What is the point??

Just going round and round and round...

Can he be omniscient and omnipotent...no


But then absolutes only apply in an absolute context...


For every argument, there is a counter argument.


You either believe or you don't..... nobody is going to convince anybody of anything.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 01:58 PM
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That discussion finished pages ago. Now where talking about the problematic nature of Christianity.

[edit on 9/25/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


All well and good, but the thread is about why people laugh at creationists... so either get back to providing reasons to mock or take it to another thread?



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Which is just a fabulous idea! This thread was derailed a long time ago. I don't know if I've said this already, but here it goes. I don't laugh at anyone due to their beliefs. That is their right. I do, however, laugh at idiots like the ones in the videos in the OP because they use obvious lies and misconceptions to support their argument. Instead of saying, I believe it because I just feel it to be true, which I could respect, they laughingly try to use 'fairy tale' science to prove that they are right, and that the truly well educated are wrong. If your beliefs are rooted in faith and your Holy Book, just say so! Now I do not include those who do not take Genesis literally, word for word. There is room for debate on issues other than strict, literal, 'the world is only 6,000 years old' Creationism. There, I think we got back on topic! To the OP, the videos were hilarious, btw!!!



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 02:09 PM
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They also attack other people's beliefs not to mention science itself!

And they use arguments against evolution (abiogenesis, gravity, big bang etc) that make it sound as if they have intellects rivalling that of garden tools.

[edit on 9/25/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


Now what did garden tools ever do to you for you to insult them like that!




posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


... I don't wanna talk about it [sob]




posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


LOL. You're a better person that me, then. I DO actually laugh at people on here from time to time- I just try very hard to not let it be known I'm snickering at my keyboard when I read their posts. lol

You're a good soul.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Just because I don't laugh at them does not mean I don't laugh at what they believe! I am human after all!



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 04:30 PM
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I may not convince anyone, but at the very least I'll get some finger muscles dog-gonit!


Originally posted by AshleyD

2) Why God created Satan when he would have known what Satan would have become, and indeed being omnipotent, would of had to CREATE him for the PURPOSE of being evil. Pure evil can not come from pure good.


See, I do not believe God created Satan for the sole purpose of being evil. Satan was one of the highest angels but rebelled out of his own free will. As for your Pure evil and Pure good comment- this is as simple as cold and heat. There is no such things as cold by itself- it is simply the absence of heat. Likewise, 'pure evil' is the absence of 'good.'


Have you ever played chess? The thing about chess is, like any other board game, you can see all your pieces and your oponents pieces as well. This is how an omnipotent being would view the universe. Knowing all at one moment in time. All that was, all that is, and all that will be. Now, you say that God did not create Satan to be evil. If I was playing chess against an opponent, and I was omnipotent and knew all the right moves to make, and yet I let my opponent (the Devil) win, then what does that say about me? It says that I chose that end. Likewise, saying that God is omnipotent is saying that he chose exactly how the Devil would be when he made him. IE, he made the Devil to rebel and become evil and send us all into turmoil.


Originally posted by AshleyD

3) The contradiction of a perfect omnipotent God creating a flawed world.


We are told the world was created 'good' and then became flawed. We are also told nature will be restored. We are told all natural fell out of whack due to the fall but it was never created that way and it will not stay that way.


But it will stay that way. That's my point. 6 billion years from now, you may be eating a bean buritto with your good buddy Jesus, but there will still be billions of people in Hell. A perfect omnipotent God would never have allowed it to come to that. Even a politician such as George Bush (if he were omnipotent) would not have made such foul choices.


Originally posted by AshleyD

Why does he not offer the same luxaries to other creatures? If he is infinite, then we look the same in comparison to him as animals do. Infinity is to 5 as infinity is to 5000.


This question I don't understand. Are you saying why aren't animals offered salvation? What do you mean by 'luxuries?' And 'creatures?' Or are you asking why don't animals have a relationship with God? Let me know what you mean by luxuries and creatures.


I'm basically saying why are we the only ones to recieve God's grace? Why don't animals get the same attention from God? From a human perspective, it makes sense. We are supperior to animals. But my point was that to an infinite being, we are on the same level as animals because he is infinite. Therefor we are infinitely lower than him and animals are also infinitely lower than him. This is a weaker argument, but I present it because it shows to me that the Bible was written by man & for man and not from the perspective of God.


Originally posted by AshleyD

5) The contradiction of an infinite being creating something.


LOL How is this a contradiction? Are you referring to the age old question of, 'If God made us then who made God?' Or do you think since He is infinite everything else should be too? I would be much more concerned about a FINITE being's ability to create something.


Look up infinite in the dictionary. Infinite is everything. Therefor if we didn't exist (ie God created us), then he would not have been infinite. He contradicts himself being infinite in creating something.


Originally posted by AshleyD

6) The contradiction of a creator judging his creation. If I paint a painting and am not satisfied with it, do I torture the painting (assuming this were possible), or do I create a better painting the next time?


Well, you seem to think we are like an inanimate objects incapable of any kind of rational thought process or decision making if you truly agree with your comparison of cognitive humans to something that cannot think or feel. That painting cannot make any type of decisions, accept grace, engage in sin, ask for forgiveness, etc.


That's not the argument. If God
1) Is omnipotent
2) created us

Then he created us to be the way we are. HE created me knowing that I would make the 'wrong' choice. He knew my end before I did, and he punishes us for how he made us. You have to change your perspective of time. Free will is an illusion IF God created us, because our end is already written to him, and that end is determined by him because he is omnipotent.


Originally posted by AshleyD
And those are things all of us humans do and can do. We're not sent to Hell just because we exist and ended up being an ugly painting that God doesn't like. The painting cannot choose to be ugly but humans can choose to be ugly by their actions and rejection of God.


But God 'painted' me not to make the 'right' choice because he is omnipotent. You can't have it both ways. Either he is omnipotent and is responsible for our actions, or he is not omnipotent.

To be continued in 2 seconds.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD

7) Why would an infinite God want our love? Infinite would imply that he does not want or need anything as he would already be 'complete' in every way.


This is really silly in my opinion. God very clearly Has emotions so why would He NOT want our love? I agree that He doesn't NEED it but I see nothing wrong with Him wanting it. And I see no contradictions whatsoever in a creator wanting His creation's love.


You misunderstand my point. If he wants our love, then he doesn't have our love, correct? If he doesn't have our love then he is not infinite. Infinite is all encompassing. The fact that he wants something means that he doesn't have it therefor contradicting himself being infinite.



Originally posted by AshleyD
So the Jews were blessed as the 'chosen people' but this does NOT mean they were the ONLY ones who would be given this blessing.


But there were places that never recieved news of Jesus until much later than the Jews. There were places that were never taught about the Jewish God either. Only in recent history can we say that the majority of the world has heard. I'm sure even today there are villages in remote areas who have no idea who Jesus is.



Originally posted by AshleyD

9) Why create us to make logical decissions and then ask us to take him on faith?


We CAN research, analyze, investigate, reason, and come to a conclusion of God. OR we can do it the easy way and take it on faith. They will both lead us to God but the latter is the easy way.


But I have researched, analyzed, investigated, and reasoned, and it did not lead me to God. It actually led me away from God.


Originally posted by AshleyD

That's what I thought. I was 18 when I left Christianity.
It seems like 90% of the people that make these decisions make them between the ages of ~ 17- 21. I know there has to be a reason for this. Probably the whole comming of age and looking at your beliefs with greater scrutiny.


Well, we should lol. We should always analyze it. If not, we hear the indoctrination accusations.


I agree we should. I never said we shouldn't
. I just think it's interesting that most people seem to change their views at this age.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 05:40 PM
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Ok I have a response typed out all the way up to the love vs. infinite issue but then I had to stop because I actually have a question for you. Do you believe teleological arguments are valid evidence for the existence of God? Why or why not.



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