Why do people laugh at creationists?

Is science the only avenue to truth? Watch as Aunt Matilda baffles a team of world renowned scientists with a simple chocolate cake.



The God of the bible is not incompatible with science since this God made a structured observable world. God is not only presented as the creator but the sustainer of life.

“In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.” - Job 12:10

Therefore, when we engage in scientific observation we are observing the ordered phenomena the creator God puts in place and continues to uphold. Readers of the bible would expect the created world to be rational and causal. It does not have to be that way. Albert Einstein once marveled, “The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible”. Science is founded on this faith in the rational intelligibility of the universe and the uniformity of nature.

The biblical God is not in conflict with science. It's just that few scientists are in conflict with God. The opinions of scientists are not statements of science but merely their beliefs or faith. We do not postulate a "God of the Gaps" one of the favorite straw men of sophists like Richard Dawkins. God is not the explanation for the yet-to-be-explained or unexplainable. On the contrary, God is the reason scientific observation is even possible.

This reminds me of a joke:

A little girl asks her Dad, "Where did people come from?"
Dad gives her the short version of the creation story.
A few days later she asks her Mom "Where did people come from?"
Mom gives her the short version of evolution.
So the little girl goes back to Dad and says, "Dad! How come when I asked you where people came from, you said God made us, and when I asked Mom she said we came from monkeys?"
Dad says: Well, sweetheart, I told you about my side of the family, and Mom told you about hers."

I imagine that little children have been asking "Where did we come from?" since there was enough language for them to ask it, and parents have been coming up with stories almost as long. There are as many different creation stories as there are races/tribes of humans.

There are short-lived, isolated species of animals that have demonstrated mutation and evolution during the period of time that we've had scientists to observe them. Proof.

Carbon-dating, while not accurate to the year, works. We can identify world timeline events in rock strata all over the world, and they are consistent. Proof.

Fossils are real, and they were animals and plants. While not all links are in place, some species can be traced back quite well with few or no "missing links." Proof.

We have 96% of our DNA in common with chimpanzees, and studying chimpanzees shows clearly where some of the social traits and instincts we still have came from. Proof?

On the other side, we have an ancient book written by various men years after the events described, and subsequently edited, modified, and translated multiple times by more men who knew even less about what really happened.

History books written about events that happened less than 100 years ago contain inaccuracies; but we are asked to believe that a book written almost 2000 years ago is perfectly accurate?

The Bible tells us quite plainly how to test those who claim to be "Christians" (although he didn't use that word). The true disciples (followers) of Christ will be able to duplicate his feats as described in the Bible.

"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."'

Did not one Christian who has lived since the Bible was written have even as much faith as "the size of a mustard seed?" Apparently not, since I haven't heard of anyone who could move mountains, or do any of the things that Jesus is said to have done.

If you are a Christian, the Bible says that you can prove it to me by performing miracles through faith. So let's see one. Where's the Proof?

Reply to Heike


Maybe consume any deadly thing and be not harmed? I'd like to see that one done.

Raise the dead Michael Jackson's Thriller style.

reply to post by Good Wolf


Thanks alot! Now I'm going to have that damn song stuck in my head all night!



[edit on 25-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Many apologies.

reply to post by Heike

"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."'

Did not one Christian who has lived since the Bible was written have even as much faith as "the size of a mustard seed?" Apparently not, since I haven't heard of anyone who could move mountains, or do any of the things that Jesus is said to have done.

Oh please. :shk:

This is more than a little absurd on your part. Like the Bible doesn't use figures of speech? Hello? There are other subjects in school like English and literature. Seriously, do you really believe that Jesus was teaching them to alter the landscape? ROFL Come on... This is obviously an example of hyperbole.

Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpɝːbəli/ hye-PER-buh-lee; "HYE-per-bowl" is a mispronunciation) comes from Greek "υπερβολή" (meaning exaggeration) and is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

en.wikipedia.org...

The phrase "moving mountains" was "a Jewish metaphor for accomplishing what was difficult or virtually impossible"(Hagner, 605) That phrase is still to this day a common metaphor for doing what is extremely difficult in ones life. In this case it simply points to the hyperbole of what Jesus was saying.

One more canard debunked

So this is a hyperbole too then:


Mark 16:18

"they will pick up snakes with their hands; even if they drink any deadly poison it will not hurt them; and they will place their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
This is more than a little absurd on your part. Like the Bible doesn't use figures of speech? Hello? There are other subjects in school like English and literature. Seriously, do you really believe that Jesus was teaching them to alter the landscape? ROFL Come on... This is obviously an example of hyperbole.

The way he says it does not sound like a hyperbole. Even if it is, it doesn't change the fact that Jesus tells his followers to heal the sick, raise the dead, perform miracles. Yet no one today can do these magical deeds. I wonder why.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
One more canard debunked

Hardly. Christians claim that through faith such things are possible. So either you have no faith or God does not exist.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
This is more than a little absurd on your part. ... This is obviously an example of hyperbole. ... The phrase "moving mountains" was "a Jewish metaphor for accomplishing what was difficult or virtually impossible"(Hagner, 605) That phrase is still to this day a common metaphor for doing what is extremely difficult in ones life. In this case it simply points to the hyperbole of what Jesus was saying.

Thanks for the unnecessary vocabulary lesson. I know perfectly well what a hyperbole is. I know what analogies and parables are too, and Jesus was usually fairly clear about it when he was using them. This is your interpretation and not necessarily the only possible interpretation. It's a good point, though, so I'll let it stand.

One more canard debunked

And I do have to say Good Job! picking out the one part of my post that you could easily refute and doing so with admirable style.

However, you didn't answer the real question, and I think you deliberately didn't answer the real question. I suspect you thought we'd get off into a discussion of whether or not that was really a hyperbole and sidestep the truly critical elements of my post. Nah, I'm not that easily distracted.

Jesus clearly told his disciples that they would be able to do the things that he did, such as turning water to wine, healing the sick, walking on water, casting out demons, etc., and those were not hyperbole, analogy, or parable. According to the Bible they were real things that Jesus did. So, why haven't any of his followers been able to do even one of them? Why can't even a priest do any of them? Doesn't anyone have enough faith or belief to able to do what their Christ said they would be able to do?

reply to post by Heike


Great post. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally posted by Heike
History books written about events that happened less than 100 years ago contain inaccuracies; but we are asked to believe that a book written almost 2000 years ago is perfectly accurate?

Not only that, but if you read the text, it's clear that it is not perfectly accurate. Christians claim that it's the perfect word of God even despite the obvious contradictions in the Bible. Then some say that there were errors in the text or in the translation which resulted in the contradictions. That's all fine and well, but if there are errors, then how do we know how much of the Bible is an error? Some of the most important scriptures in the Bible could also be translation errors. If you are consistent, then you can't put more stock in any scripture than you can the contradicting scriptures. Christians rarely look at the source of the very book which they entrust their eternal soul in. Most Christians have no idea who wrote the books they are reading, when they wrote them, how many times they were modified, edited, passed down, the books which were omitted from the Bible, etc.

The only thing that comes close to miraculous is the ever dubious stigmata.

[edit on 9/25/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Maybe consume any deadly thing and be not harmed? I'd like to see that one done.

"18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; "

I does not say to do these things intentionally to prove something to a skeptic. It is meant as reassurance of protection when working for Christ to spread the Gospel. It is a sin to test God by initiating unnecessary danger and trials. Also we know that this is actually a fulfilled prophecy that proves the supernatural foreknowledge of the Bible.

3Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, "This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, Justice has not allowed him to live." 5But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects

Acts 28

So in truth it works against your sad attempt to mock the word of God.

Raise the dead Michael Jackson's Thriller style.

Demanding aren't we? :shk:

I have not witnessed it either but I have heard of it. Miracles are not something that happen on cue or they would cease to be miraculous. Actually there is a lot of testimony from places where Christianity is growing rapidly that this actually occurring.

opentheword.org...
www.sethbarnes.com...
www.etpv.org...

Again God is not in the business of command performances for skeptics. In fact Jesus refused to do miracles in his hometown due to disbelief. You will be judged on the basis of your response to his creation and the Gospel of Christ.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20


[edit on 9/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Good Wolf


Don't even get me started on that one! Every 'stigmata' case has the miracle slinger bleeding from the hands, when it has been proven that the spikes were placed through the wrists in a crucifixtion. Spikes placed through the hands would not support the weight of the human body. Yet another historical inaccuracy!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Again God is not in the business of command performances for skeptics.

And 'God' is not in the business of mettling in human affairs. We really place too much value on our existance in reference to the universal and multi-dimensional affairs of the Divine.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Good Wolf

 

Don't even get me started on that one! Every 'stigmata' case has the miracle slinger bleeding from the hands, when it has been proven that the spikes were placed through the wrists in a crucifixtion. Spikes placed through the hands would not support the weight of the human body. Yet another historical inaccuracy!

That is not a biblical phenomenon. Just a Catholic legend. Doesn't reflect on Christianity but Catholicism which is filled with non Biblical beliefs and practices.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Well, that's not entirely accurate. If the feet are supported with nails through the ankles, then most of the weight goes back into the cross.

But you raise a good point because when everyone started saying the nails were in the wrists, the wounds that were commonly seen moved to the wrists. Miraculous!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Good Wolf

 

That is not a biblical phenomenon. Just a Catholic legend. Doesn't reflect on Christianity but Catholicism which is filled with non Biblical beliefs and practices.

And what do you christians have?

[edit on 9/25/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
The only thing that comes close to miraculous is the ever dubious stigmata.

I have witnessed many miracles in my own life and lives of others. It is an inside job. You are not going to be privy to things of the Holy Spirit as an outsider. You will be judged on your response to creation and the gospel - I do believe a reverent sincere and humble approach to God will result in him revealing himself to you in a way that is personal and undeniable. It requires a dying to self.

I dealt with stigmata already - Catholic not Christian.

I'd also like to point out that Bigwhammy's sig quote took Einstein out of context... Einstein is well documented as not believing in a personal god.

reply to post by Good Wolf


But they have examined the bones of crucification victims and the damage has been found in the feet and wrists. Also, Roman records confirm this.