American Jobs Lost , Thanks , McCain !!!

The tanker deal would have been secured with Boeing some time ago. John McCain and his lobbyists scuttled the deal, costing more than 40,000 plus American jobs....www.youtube.com...

I have to tell you, while people see McCain as a Saviour (those that support him) he careless about the problems that are hurting American workers in this nation, I don’t think that American work force can take 12 more years of the same with another butt kissing corporate president, helping out source whatever is left in this nation.

Yes, and the Air Force's deal with Boeing was just such a shining example of fairness and transparency. Look at what the New York Times had to say about it earlier this year:

In the ensuring firestorm, embarrassing e-mail messages were made public in which the Air Force secretary, Mr. Roche, said “Go Boeing!” and called opponents of the deal “animals.” Soon afterward, it was reported that the Air Force’s No. 2 weapons buyer, Darleen A. Druyun, had been promised jobs for herself, her daughter and son-in-law in return for steering the tanker contract and billions of dollars of other Air Force business to Boeing. Soon after joining Boeing at a $250,000-a-year post, Ms. Druyun and Michael Sears, Boeing’s former chief financial officer, pleaded guilty in the scandal and received prison terms.

Source

Now McCain may well have some agenda in all of this, but I really don't think this is the best example you could've picked in order to bash him. The whole thing has turned into a convoluted mess even since the original decision to revoke the contract, but one theme is certain: the Air Force has made a mess of the situation from the start.

Boeing gets 2nd chance at Tanker contract



[edit on 22-8-2008 by vor78]

Actually it is and the subject of the thousand of job lost is real regardless of the agenda of some of the higher up in Boeing.

Everybody is to make money and what is best, somebody's daughter + two more getting a job or the lost of thousand.

I don't think that the comparison makes any sense, I have been following this story for a while.

If all the McCain apologist can come is with this information then we really are in trouble if the justification of outsourcing American jobs is justified by gossip.

reply to post by marg6043


Again, McCain may have some agenda in this. I'm not saying he doesn't, but simply that there's enough evidence of impropriety here that people went to prison over it (after admitting guilt, no less). An investigation was clearly warranted.

And yes, it would have created jobs. So would a great number of no-bid contracts that people rail against on this site all the time. Granted, this was not a no-bid contract, but the point is simply this: the ends do not necessarily justify the means. If the process of procuring the contract was corrupt, and it appears to have been, there's every reason for an investigation to occur.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by vor78]

reply to post by marg6043


Who are these people you're talking about?

Honestly, I don't know anyone who thinks McCain is a savior. McCain is the most flawed candidate of anyone we had in the primary. He has way too many liberal tendencies and cares too much about what people think.

He's no savior...not by a long shot; but he's sure better than Obama.

I've been following this story for a while. In my book it's a plus for McCain. You have a large American defense contractor who initially had the contrac, but it turns out they cheated. Bad enough to put a former Air Force officer and Boeing uppper executive in jail I believe it was thier CFO. Mc Cain leads a Congressional effort to force a competitive bid on the contract. Boeing loses the bid but runs crying to the GAO. The GAO finds that the "process" of the award was flawed and it is currently up for bid again. The tanker as awarded to the Northrop/EADS partnership was to be produced in that far away country of Mobile, Alabama.

After the GAO laid the smack down on the award, the Air Force re-opened the bid for the tanker. Just this morning this news hit the wire.

Boeing Co. is considering bailing out of the politically-charged bidding for a $35 billion contract to build aerial refueling tankers for the Air Force, if it does not receive an additional four months by the Pentagon to put together a competitive offer.

I do have a bias in this let me be clear. I live in Alabama and would rather see the jobs come here than Washington. I would expect someone on the left coast to have the opposite opinion. It's a convoluted story no doubt and shows just how corrupt the Millitary Industrial Complex is.

What this story is not, is an indictment of McCain. It's not even a partisan issue. You have CONgress people from both parties in Washington spewing Boeing propaganda about foreign awards (though I'm sure Alabama may seem like a foreign country to them).

The sad part about this is that the Airforce still doesn't have a clear replacement for an aging tanker. Boeing has shown that if it cannot win in a bid (without corruption from inside the Air Force) it will do its best to stall delay and obstruct whoever does through courts and legal action to the detriment of the country.

If you want to use this whole convoluted mess as an attack on Mc Cain be my guest, I think this is one that could easily be turned to show a strength of character opposing a proven corrupt defense contractor.

So the mentality here is that Boeing should not get a contract and 14,000 American jobs should go to France.

Is that correct or I am missing something here?

You know the pros and cons are flawed and still doesn't justify the lost of jobs in it and to tell the truth people are forgetting that McCain got more from this deal than the American people will ever get.

Jobs VS political campaign money

Can somebody tells me how this is justifed?

This incredible that bipartisan bickering is taking away the real issue here.

People are to lose jobs in American in favor of a very nice deal that favor one of our presidential candidates pocket.

Deny ignorance please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

UM marg I haven't been able to finish watching the hit piece on youtube due to slow loading and the annoying voice of the narrator, but 3 min into it I've noticed not a single mention of Northrop Grumand or where the planes were set to be assembled in the mix. The Boeing apologists would have you believe the planes would be entirely produced in France this is not the case. The planes were to be assembled in Mobile Alabama, and unless the Northrop/EADS partnership is planning on flying French workers to Mobile to work doesn't that mean American jobs too?


[edit on 22-8-2008 by jefwane]

reply to post by marg6043


Its unfortunate that American workers may have to pay the price here, but as has been stated, there is significant evidence of wrongdoing in the procurement of this contract both on the part of Boeing and the Air Force. They're the ones ultimately at fault here.

Truth be told, I'd much rather that Boeing wins the contract (and they have another chance). But at the same time, I'm not going to support or condone the apparently corrupt process that got them the original contract. I definitely don't believe it to be something that should be rewarded with a $35 billion contract with no questions asked.

Allright was finally able to listen through the youtube piece. Sounds like mostly Boeing sour grapes to me. If they hadn't been corrupt in the original deal they'd have the contract. I still didn't hear a single mention of Northrop Grumand or Mobile, Alabama. Blowing of the entirety of this youtube video is not a failure to deny ignorance is simply denying a one sided opinion.

The real scandal here is the one that McCain deal was going to rub American workers from jobs in our nation.

Yes I am aware of the so call McCain best achievement exposing the corruption of Boing and the Military officials.

I was one of those that applauded McCain for this but that was before the real deal was exposed.

But is that an excuse to the real deal of corruption that McCain already was planning the take over of the tanker deal by the DEAS?

two tough letters McCain wrote to Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England in 2006 and another to Robert Gates, just prior to his confirmation as Defense secretary. In the first letter, dated Sept. 8, 2006, McCain wrote of hearing from "third parties" that the Air Force was about to redo the tanker competition by factoring in European government subsidies to EADS—a condition that could have seriously hurt the EADS bid. McCain urged that the Pentagon drop the subsidy factor and posed a series of technical questions about the Air Force's process

So is ok to get the glory for exposing corruption while already planning for the outsourcing of American jobs in favor of money?

"He was trying to jam us and bully us to make sure there was competition by giving EADS an advantage," said one senior Pentagon official, who asked for anonymity when discussing a politically sensitive matter. The assumption within the Pentagon, the official added, was that McCain's letters were drafted by EADS lobbyists. "There was no one else that would have had that level of detail," the official said. (A Loeffler associate noted that he and Nelson were retained by EADS after the letters were drafted.)

www.newsweek.com...

While McCain said that this was for the best interest of the air force he forgot to add that he got money out of deal for campaign.

Now how can this help Americas workers?

Since when McCain is of French nationality that is putting the French interest over Americas one.

Why should I vote for somebody that is going to look after foreign interest over American interest because it has a money sign for personal agendas attach to it.


[edit on 22-8-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


Marg not once have I saw you acknowledge that it was a EADS-Northrop-Grumand partnership that would also have put many Americans to work assembling the plane in Mobile, Alabama. Last I heard Mobile was not a part of France and Northrop-Grumand is an American company.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by jefwane]

Yes they are American but the deals were to be for their European government subsidies meaning that the deals would go oversea anyway.

This opened the door to the Airbus deal. When it refereed to Senator McCain's longstanding interest in … full and open competition." I guess he mean Airbus getting the best deal.




[edit on 22-8-2008 by marg6043]

I do aknowledge a Boeing win to the contract would put more americans to work, but IMHO Boeing doesn't deserve the deal due to past proven criminal conduct in the same program.

And if Airbus is getting subsidies for this doesn't that mean that the European taxpayers for once are subsidizing an American millitary project as opposed to American taxpayers footing the bill for 50yrs of European defense?

I am biased in this, I've already admitted. I'd rather see 6,000 jobs come to Alabama close to me than 14,000 go to Washington a continent away.

How the Airbus deal got concoted?

Well if you have links to powerful people in congress including a possible cadidate for president hurting for campaign money there goes the best bid.

While Sen. John McCain and Sen. Barack Obama spar over each other's ties to special interests, McCain was getting deep into the lure of lobbyist wanting he Air Force deal to go to Airbus.

A campaign add was launched In the way of avertisments to make the American public aware of what it was going on with McCain and Airbus.

"Seven of McCain’s staff and fundraisers lobbied for Airbus," 1. the ad says. "And guess what? John McCain intervened, which helped Airbus get that Pentagon contract.

That doesn’t look good for a presidential possible candidate even, McCain was warned about this but did nothing about it. Money was needed. for campaign.

The group is also asking the Federal Election Commission to investigate two other public reports that touch on McCain's connections to lobbyists: That a lobbying company, the Loeffler Group LLP, made payments this year to McCain's national finance director, Susan Nelson; and that a company controlled in part by campaign manager Rick Davis 1. sliced more than $100,000 off of McCain campaign's tab, when the campaign was starved for cash last year.

blogs.abcnews.com...

A Well-Connected Campaign Firm Resurfaces
The trail of campaign money corruption doesn’t end it gets bigger and bigger.

When Republican Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign hit the financial skids last summer, he reported that he owed one of his largest vendors $1,079,000.

The debt was owed to a computer company, called 3eDC. The firm has close ties to McCain campaign manager Rick Davis and his lobbying partner Paul Manafort.

blog.washingtonpost.com...

I guess the more money you own to your supporters the more favors you have to give away.

All this is conected to Airbus.

reply to post by jefwane


You know what you are right Boeing got caught with their pants down along with the military officials.

But the guilty got to jail and served time. I guess we most thank McCain for that.

But what I don't see is why we the American citizens have to pay for the mistakes of the people that have power over us.

Still it doesn't justify the lost of American jobs with a deal to a foreign country when our nation is suffering right now one of the worst time in economical history.

We need every single job we can hold unto.

And that is just my personal view of the situation.

Marg, You've made a convincing case for at least the appearance of impropriety by McCain in the award to the EADS/Northrop partnership. However, lobbying is what politicians respond to and no one with a chance of winning the election is going to do anything about that. I'll take an appearance of impropriety over a conviction for corruption any day.

My main gripe with this whole issue is that the Boeing apologists would have you believe that every single job that could have gone to Americans in this program is going to France. That is simply not true, and puts an emotional element to the award when it should be based on the merits of the aircraft.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by jefwane]

I agree with you, in America big corporate had it set up in a way that they can bring foreigners to work at the expenses of American skilled ones for less money and is all approved by congress.

Every year visas are awarded to bring people into this country while Americans goes jobless.

Sometimes I don't understand the mentality of all this.

It's a little off topic, but the visa issue is a big gripe of mine myself. I don't so much mind Americans having to compete against Western Europe though. Competing against countries with a high standard of living and comparable wages is not a problem to me. Having to compete against countries whose wages are minuscule however is a recipe for the lowering of the standard of living of all but the poorest and the richest. Global wage arbitrage is one of the issues that is breaking the back of what is left of the American middle class.

Back on topic, Boeing and the Eads/Northrop partnership to my understanding are really the only two entities that could concieveably produce the tanker in question. Were Eads/Northrop excluded because of EADS (multi)nationality then Boeing would be able to name its price in a non-competitive bid. I don't think that would be good for the taxpayer and if EADS/Northrop wins the contract due to a product that meets specifications and price then Boeing should suck it up and move on. Boeing is still one of the biggest pigs at the trough and I'm sure will be plenty busy with other projects.