Why can't we require drug tests in order to draw welfare? , page 9
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 20 times


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 05:32 PM by mopusvindictus
reply to post by Brothers


Untrue... Americans are the fattest people on earth and Australia is gaining on us... it's a rare person period who can resist what tastes good over what's good for them on the shelf

We are a giant nation of fat asses no matter how we get our food.


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 05:37 PM by mopusvindictus
reply to post by groingrinder



Well, your talking about Castrating people...what does that make you?

I'm sorry i'm a survivalist and, having children is a good thing be it rich or not, your idea of civility is your idea of civility it doesn't make it civility

The guy on welfare having 4 kids to your one ...one of them will screw your one daughter and make you extinct and the other 3 will survive and go on to live in your homes and own your country

Babies make up the population the population is the Country

China and India are the big winners and, they figured it out lol

Not having babies is a good idea?

Sorry I don't do extinct even if I was not "economically viable"

I'd have kid after kid after kid Until my kids made the rules.


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 05:46 PM by Bluess
Originally posted by Scorched Earth
reply to post by TruthTellist


Which goes to show the absurdity of calling it a disability. Sure sometimes medication can be addicitive (painkillers for instance), but the addict willing chooses to take them.

Much like addiction to other forms of irresponsibility, gambling for instance. Addiction itself isnt a disability, it is a lack of willpower and responsibility.


I would like to define the word addiction for you, since you seem to not know what it is.

Addiction =Psychological and bodily dependence on a substance or practice which is beyond voluntary control

beyond voluntary control is the keyword here...yes some people choose to take the first rush and the next couple, sure...but when you get hooked its a totally different matter and you need help.

I am disappointed to see people wanting to take away welfare from the people in most need of help.

The most of your tax money doesnt go to welfare, but to warbudgets!

What happened to responsibility for our fellow humans? What happened to valueing people higher than money?

Where is the love?



reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 05:52 PM by GhostR1der
reply to post by asmeone2


As long as they test for alcohol.

Why test for methanphetamines when they leave the bloodstream in around 2 days typically (3-5 listed in source), where as hemp takes up to a few months depending on the person. Hemp has killed 0 people in recorded history.. go take a peek at yearly alcohol deaths.
Cocaine, same thing again - 4-5 days in urine. Hair tests are not very accurate and can be disputed, causing the testers problems.

www.erowid.org...

Bottom of the page lists testing times for various substances.

If people know the test is coming they simply stop their hard drugs. If they smoke some harmless bud then they're stuffed. I don't see this working at all.


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 05:54 PM by mopusvindictus
reply to post by justamomma


It's stealing how? The Governement perhaps is stealing the recipients are taking what is being given

and LOL, what does this actually cost you personally?

As IF it wasn't going to welfare we wouldn't just have a new Carrier Battle group?

Welfare is a sad place to start a Tax revolt from...

Now if you want to contest the argument of Taxes Period!

Then you have a valid point to make, that... is straight politics, I believe in taxation because, there is no other way for the governemnt to make money to pay for things...

But I couldn't argue with fury... that if you don't want to pay taxes that you should have to, or even couldn't much argue that we were founded as non taxing system for the most part.

But picking on the poorest people... when they spend 500.00 on a hammer and 700.00 on a toilet seat in government contracts the war is costing Billions and Billions a week, we police the whole frackin world, there are sex programs in school and your paying for your kids thoughts to be altered...

Welfare is by Far... b y Far the least waste of your tax dollars

So argue a proper debate... argue against taxation

But don't turn on your neighbor who in the end is just using the system as it ISto get by or get ahead... and smash them, if you believe you shouldn't be paying in the first place

It's just a terrible, non compassionate, miserable place to start that argument

you know, start with... lol, anything else! I'd like to know myself why it costs a Grand for a Tire

Or why anyone under 20,000 a year has to pay any taxes because... just like the amount you pay to welfare is nothing, the poors overall tax contribution amounts to garbage on a federal level too!

i mean this thread is people who make less than they need to live arguing about people who make less than they do

and your all f'n poor anyway... both sides of this debate are not the "I set the world on fire club"


Do you know what this debate reminds me of:

My dad, running around the house shutting lights off to try and save electricity and yelling at everyone...

My dad was retarded like that, because it costs more money to turn the light off and on than to leave it on

He was missing the big picture in that regard

He was missing the big picture in that: The only real answer he had was not to haras his kids and wife but to figure out how to make more money, but I was the blame lol, for leaving the bathroom light on

That's about the reality of how welfare actually factors in our finances

Every person in this debate is a freak... myself Included, because I could be making money on my computer right now now and I give up pay for a habit, every time I post in here, a social habit, but a habit

If you want money make more, it's useless to focus on what other people earn or do

and unless you tax revolt period it won't change what you pay, thank g-d some poor people get something because 90% of it is wasted probably anyway, on death, on all sorts of nonsense, wars on dope...good g-d, they butcher the taxes...

so make the cause TAXES not Welfare because welfare is a benevolent end of things and people who make under 12,000 need it because, they get taxed too LOL and don't have much other choice


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 05:55 PM by mopusvindictus
Originally posted by GhostR1der
reply to post by asmeone2


As long as they test for alcohol.

Why test for methanphetamines when they leave the bloodstream in around 2 days typically (3-5 listed in source), where as hemp takes up to a few months depending on the person. Hemp has killed 0 people in recorded history.. go take a peek at yearly alcohol deaths.
Cocaine, same thing again - 4-5 days in urine. Hair tests are not very accurate and can be disputed, causing the testers problems.

www.erowid.org...

Bottom of the page lists testing times for various substances.

If people know the test is coming they simply stop their hard drugs. If they smoke some harmless bud then they're stuffed. I don't see this working at all.


can't just write a one line post so i will preface this with a line here that leads up to the word

AMEN


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 06:03 PM by mopusvindictus
Originally posted by redled
Just try to ban those who work on the morning after with a breathaliser. It's insane, if you're on the dole, a good smoke helps. If you try to turn up for a job interview stoned, then your benefits should be cut for disrespect at least. Just a question of keeping it irrelevant.


Amen yet again

Drug tests will only find pot heads lol and I am sorry everyone i knew who smoked pot as oppossed to drinkers or speed users or even the purely staright ended up very successful, it's a compleye misconception, I have 3 friends who are doctors all smoked weed...

Coke and speed leave the system sometimes in under a day, you never catch these people and it is ruinous substance, the Meth epidemic is in part a response to weed still being illegal and it can be made at home not shipped


Look we all know the people who crave a buzz,

1st Grade teachers handed out the rexoed test papers or magiuc makers, some kids without any prompting picked them up and sniffed them for the buzz

I have no idea why? LOL I was one of them!

and I turned out just fine, top 5% income wise 2/3 of my life

It's not a determining factor

and absolutely only pot will be a factor in drug tests

Now if you want to get sane with the drug policies and make drugs that Kill people like Meth a factor, maybe that would be okay!

Because that kids Momma is going to die anyway and fail to care for that kid anyway

But if your making pot the something that denies welfare... your saying J K rowlings should never have gotten welfare, That Bill Clinton and hillary shouldn't have gotten student loans That Carl Sagan didn't deserve to go to school, that Michiu Kaku and Colin Powell should have gotten Jawbs lol

Blanket policies do not work


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 06:43 PM by damurph
I simply can't see the problem with Drug Testing for Welfare Recipients and persons living in Government Provided Housing.

Our Government has been doing such testing for at least 25 years.

The difference is they've been testing U.S. Soldiers. The same men and women putting their lives on the line to defend the rights and freedoms of the rest of us.

If they can test these young men and women, what's the problem with testing those living off of our tax dollars.

There are those that will argue against the accuracy of the test. That people will lose their benefits or housing based on a false positive.

It's simply a matter of using double or triple redundant blind testing over the course of at least a month, with testing once every week or two, once the person had tested positive. These sorts of safeguards would reduce the chances of the innocent being persecuted.

There are those that will argue that such testing is an invasion of privacy.

How can those that expect the general public to support them, expect that there will be no repurcussions for abuse of the system.

It simply isn't right for those of us working everyday, to be expected to support the vices of those that choose to live off our Governments attempts to redistribute our earnings.

Don't get me wrong. I too have received Government assistance. My father died when I was a teenager. Our family received Food Stamps until my mom was able to get a job. We children still received Social Security Death Benefits until we got out of High School.

I most definately support the temporary assistance of our citizens that need some help to get on their feet.

I adamently oppose the long term dependence and/or abuse of the same systems.

Why should I be expected to give up a percentage of the money that I work to earn, just so someone can sit on their ass and get high?

For such support systems to continue to survive, and provide much needed assistance, we'll need strong legislatures to step up and do the right things.


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 06:56 PM by mopusvindictus
reply to post by justamomma


You know, I'm basically not arguing the point in here that taxation is fair, only that starting in on welfare recipients is the lowest possible place to begin.

I keep asking the same questions and no one will answer from their point of view.

and this is not to offend:

1: If you don't believe in taxation and if your a conservative and you know something about money, Why do you have a Job? Not a business where you can make unlimited money?

2: How do you distinguish that greatly between Wage Slavery and Welfare when you are still a dependent on someone else to pay your way?

3: why focus on Welfare recipients not the Government and taxation in general?

4: How is it a better financial situation for you to put the lowest 10% back into the job market when they will then compete for your job?

5: If these people are breeding in numers in this manner how do you expect to win over them in life, is not their strategy long term more successful than maintaining the moral high ground is?

6: If you eliminate the lowest 10% at what point do you become the new lowest 10%


Look, alot of people just need to abandon "Industrial era values and financial morals and methods"

The " I have a job" philosophy came about from people who were as 11 year olds forced to work in factories on a set schedule for someone else for a set Slave Wage

What actually happened was Slavery was replaced by wage Slavery and only race as the consequence of being that slave changed, some slaves actually were well taken care of wage slavery left you to your own devices with vey limited money and no hope of getting more.

This is now the Communication era and anyone can start a business, work form home work their own hours and be with their family if they choose to.

In a way it is a return to the farm system a system of genuine independance which existed for most of written human history

The whole "get a job philosophy" leads to communism and socialism and wlefare isn't nearly as socialist as overall defined wages handed out by the fuedal corporations that employ most people

welfare frees people from slavery to a degree, if they remain slaves and don't take advantage of the TIME they are bough to learn and do something that';s their own fault

But the work life, the Get up at 6:30 bet at work by 8:00 leave at 5:00 get home by 6:30 eat watch a couple hrs of tv barely talk to your family sleep, wash rinse and repeat

this is actually a worse life than welfare is and I think that is what most of you resent

Mostly because after taxation, it's almost impossible to escape from.

and this is Slavery rewritten for the Industrial era

You say the governement should protect you from theft, but lol, they are slave masters, this is in fact rewritten slavery, this is your own non acceptance of the reality that your a field worker on fuedal estatee

It's like Gym.. I hated Gym, I didnt't resent the kid who got out of Gym because he got a doctors note... I got myself a doctors note and that is smart. Being a tatletale and telling the teacher Jimmy has nothing wrong with him doesn't fix your problem of being forced into Gym class if you hated it, it just f's over Jimmy too

I fyou were really smart you'd use the system which DOES allow you to buy your way out of slavery and do just that.

Because Grandpas ethic of work was for a day an age when factories ruled the land and they don't anymore...

Far above resnet some lady on welfare, quit your job, collect unemployment, go on welfare, get food stamps and start making money under the table instantly and build an Internet business and be free of the whole thing

Maybe some people leech the system and do nothing but that doesn't have to be you

or at the least come home at night get off ats and start growing that income!

Because that is the only real answer there is in America, become an entrepreneur.



reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 06:57 PM by mopusvindictus
reply to post by damurph


Those people agree to testing in return for a Job they requested

I have never applied to a job that tested in my life even if entirely sober.


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 07:01 PM by mopusvindictus
reply to post by damurph


and for the record, long term assistance i.e. lifetime. Should never be needed it shouldn't take more than a few years to find a job, start a business or get into school where student loans would replace welfare

Long term i.e. people who suck the system for decades is a whole other aspect of this and I could actually see a valid point in that

most people in actuality are not in the system beyond a few years, but those that are should face some sort of restrictions over time.



But again, the reality is the drugs that incapacitate people are virtually impossible to test for unless you test every other day which would be more expensive than the welfare itself...






[edit on 20-8-2008 by mopusvindictus]


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 07:18 PM by mopusvindictus
Just to make the point short which I obviously have trouble doing

Work for a corporation is reformed wage slavery, it is not a high goal in life, it is a communist system by default far more han welfare is because on welfare you have the TIME to pursue higher goals even if most people are too lethargic to do so.

Working, excpecting a living wage, excpecting to get ahead when you are no more in control of your destiny than a welfare recipient is , is simply not a good position to be in and beating on the people who slip..beyond the system is jealousy and to think that it is or should be fair is Naive, and it's having been brainwashed

Our founding Fathers knew the true enemy was your own government always, I can not, ever disrespect someone who manages to get out of the sytstem.

Many of these people are Captialists in the truest sense of the word, they might be taking advantage but not of you, of the real enemy.

Work and a Job is NOT being a republican it is NOT Capitalist... it is socialist and borderline communist

There is one reason every immigrant comes to America and it is NOT to work for walmart or Microsoft. It is to won their own property and to own their own Business and growing up in NY every single foreigner that comes over, end up with a fruit store or some crap busines and then a house in the burbs and a nice car...

and yeah they draw on aid to get there in the first place.

It's only American bitching and whining about jobs, a Job to e is desperation and failure..it's a failure to purse the American dream, it's a failure to prosper, it's a failure to be a Capitalist and it's just as lazy as welfare in the end, because your moving your body but you are Not Thinking


Some people OWN ATS, other people do this for free... I own many websites. Just kind of on a bit of a hiatus

But I won't be here this often for long, I have my own sites to talk Sh17 on


Your day is your choice, waste time arguing with me about welfare on a website that is making someone else money, or go Blog it and make that extra G a month...

But a Job will never get you into a satisfactory place nor free you from work

get rid of welfare they will take it for something else unless You, take control of your finance.

The govt is not your friend, it never will be nor is the corporation you work for, these people employ a system of wage slavery in a capitalist society to render you immobile and bashing those under you is the same as beating your dog after a hard days work...ludicrus and useless


reply posted on 20-8-2008 @ 07:35 PM by GhostR1der
reply to post by mopusvindictus


AMEN right back at ya

Another point I wish to raise...

The cost of testing (especially in triple confirmations etc) would probably be more than the cost saved getting people off welfare who were abusing substances. If they truly cared about welfare they'd stop spending (sorry: printing) lots of money to fund their excessive and wasteful military budget.
2nd point is that it goes from testing of welfare people to.. gradually 'lets test everyone'. It's a trickle on effect, no thanks!

2c
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