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Why can't we require drug tests in order to draw welfare?

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posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by GhostR1der
reply to post by mopusvindictus
 


AMEN right back at ya


Another point I wish to raise...

The cost of testing (especially in triple confirmations etc) would probably be more than the cost saved getting people off welfare who were abusing substances. If they truly cared about welfare they'd stop spending (sorry: printing) lots of money to fund their excessive and wasteful military budget.
2c


Let me ask you though, how do you know who is on drugs without testing for it?




posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 07:44 PM
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I would like to define the word addiction for you, since you seem to not know what it is.

Addiction =Psychological and bodily dependence on a substance or practice which is beyond voluntary control

beyond voluntary control is the keyword here...yes some people choose to take the first rush and the next couple, sure...but when you get hooked its a totally different matter and you need help.

I am disappointed to see people wanting to take away welfare from the people in most need of help.

The most of your tax money doesnt go to welfare, but to warbudgets!

What happened to responsibility for our fellow humans? What happened to valueing people higher than money?

Where is the love?



There is still responsibility on the addict, for their addiction.

THere is a downward slide before reaching that point of no return. They could have chosen to go for help before it got out of their co ntrol. Besides that it's understood that some drugs like meth and heroin almost gurantee addiction--why even start?

My position isn't that we stop loving these people. It is that we stop catering to the addiction. No addict will decide to quit as long as there is a motivation not to.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


But people with money do that too!!!

I understand your grievence, but giving the health of Americans today, it is not just people on welfare.

Many have no idea what a healthy meal is. Some thing eggs are bad, others think they are great.

Most likely someone on welfare doesn't have an idea what a healthy meal is and just gets what they know.

ANd lets face it, junk is cheap. They can get more bang for their buck.

How many people know that a Mcdonalds happy meal is actually an adult sized portion? Not many.

I would chalk that up more to mis-understanding. They just see "cheese" in cheeze its. Hear cheese is good for you, and buys it.

Look at how many commericals tought mac n cheese as good for you just because it has *cough* dairy in it.

Again, I know so many people who benefitted from welfare to turn out just fine.

Like everything else, you only hear the bad stories, not the good.

So I am just giving you some good stories.




posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by styxxz

Originally posted by Amaterasu
How would you feel about denying someone benefits merely because they ate a poppy seed bagel?

The unemployed shouldn't be eating bagels. Their benefits should only cover the necessaries like bread and water not treats


I see the smiley and don't know if you're kidding or not... In case you are not... A bagel is BREAD.



So you tell me why ANYONE should be drug tested.

Drugs are bad mm'kay


Heh. Again, I don't know if you're serious, but in case you are... One certain drug was cut from study by Reagan because all they could find was benefits, and THAT just wasn't what the government, who is using the War on (some people who use some) Drugs to bring the police state into our lives. (This drug in question can be homegrown and is considered a weed.)

They have justified the rape of the Fourth Amendment by seizing property (and it rarely is returned) on SUSPICION of drug involvement only. 80% of people who have lost property this way are never even charged with a crime.

Police raid are becoming a norm. Wire tapping is rampant. And on and on.
_________________

To all of you supporters of the police state (and I would guess the NWO) that want to drug test, chip and otherwise promote the goals of the NWO - IN ANY WAY - you are fools. They have clearly mastered the art of usurpation of freedom in baby steps. And first it will be the "welfare" people (a very small percentage of whom are on the dole longer than 4 years) and then it will be some other group - until all groups so overlap that you, too, will be chipped and watched.

So much for freedom.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:15 PM
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Thank you so much for making this thread!

I had to take a drug test to get the day time job I have now, and am randomly "eligible" for my continuing employment and paycheck, why should that not apply to those on the government teat? I haven't read the responses to this thread, I am going back right now to see if there's even an argument AGAINST this...if there is, I can't wait to read it, and shoot it down!



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 


That's why it's all the more important to overhaul the food stamp system and limit it to basic ingrediants. People will learn to eat healthfully if they are limited to healthy ingrediants.

And BTW junk food is NOT cheaper, if you do the math.

Let's take a can of spaghetti. It might cost $1.50 and one person would probably eat one a can. So for a family of five to eat, would cost $7.50.

If you cook that from scratch, a 2 pound box of noodles might cost $2, a can of sauce another $2, (even less if you just buy tomato sauce and flavor it yourself!) and a pound of ground meat--I'll say $2? I haven't bought any ground meet in about 9 months, and it was about 1.50 then.

So, that's $6 dollars, and those proportions would probably make 10 servings. The leftovers could be frozeen and eaten later. One serving of self-cooked spaghetti costs about .60, and takes about 30 minutes to cook.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by LateApexer313
Thank you so much for making this thread!

I had to take a drug test to get the day time job I have now, and am randomly "eligible" for my continuing employment and paycheck, why should that not apply to those on the government teat? I haven't read the responses to this thread, I am going back right now to see if there's even an argument AGAINST this...if there is, I can't wait to read it, and shoot it down!


Thank you for your support.

Actually quite a few people have objected, mostly on grounds that it is too much intrusion.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by mopusvindictus
 


Welfare "doesn't cost much of anything?" What planet does your world hail from? It certainly isn't mine!

Wakey Wakey Mopus and take a big drink from the reality coffee cup here...


Johnson's vision of a "temporary" investment to help the poor become self-sufficient and climb into the economic mainstream has turned into abureaucratic and fiscal nightmare whose total cost has been calculated at $5.4 trillion.


www.heritage.org... 1995


School-based Early Education Reduces Child Abuse and Neglect. Each year, approximately three million cases of suspected child abuse and neglect are reported to U.S. child welfare agencies. Estimated federal and state expenditures on child welfare services exceed $11 billion. Approximately 30 percent of confirmed cases of child abuse result in placement of children outside the home, at a yearly cost of $22,000 or more.[1]


www.nichd.nih.gov...


NEW YORK -- Divorce and out-of-wedlock childbearing cost U.S. taxpayers more than $112 billion a year, according to a study commissioned by four groups advocating more government action to bolster marriages.


www.pantagraph.com...

I copied those directly from my first google search for "yearly dollars spent on welfare."

Now I am going to copy and paste the search results from "yearly dollars spent on the Iraq war."


, around $501 billion has been spent based on estimates of current expenditure rates[1], which range from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimate of $2 billion per week[2] to $12 billion a month, an estimate by economist Joseph Stiglitz.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Keep in mind this is the first search on google that calculates the complete war money up until March 2008.... 501 Billion dollars up until March....

Welfare, we're up to 5.4 TRILLION


Traffic accidents cost the Washington area more than $5 billion a year in property damage, medical costs, travel delays and lost productivity, according to a report released today by AAA.


This came up when I typed in the cost of the war yearly...5 BILLION a year in DC car wrecks...still a mere drop in the bucket compared to the war in Iraq OR welfare....

www.washingtontimes.com...



Hugh Kaufman, senior policy analyst for emergency response at the Environmental Protection Agency, said New Orleans may need one of the largest public building programmes ever seen in the US at a cost of $80-100bn - approximately the same as the yearly cost of the war in Iraq. /ex]

www.guardian.co.uk...


Yeah welfare "doesn't cost much of anything'"


[edit on 20-8-2008 by LateApexer313]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:41 PM
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I agree and Disagree as one with a disability that actually benefits from Medicinal Mary Jane and that disability being Cronh's and the Mary Jane helps with being able to eat without puking all of it back up cant say it helps with pain thou; The Idea your talking about would screw me; well would have but I unlike alot of welfare people I know would very much like to work and have been going with the healthy muscles hold more energy to help distribute throughout the body for maintenance belief that i took myself off the Mary Jane which made me drop 30lbs in 2 weeks and the constant puking and nausea are ridiculous. Sorry I digress.... Your idea while being a great idea has the potential to actually screw people that are honestly trying to get on there feet.. Instead why not ask for a tally of everything purchased with said assistance like monthly statements so dhs can monitor who is actually using the money to help themselves and not get drunk and dope up? as for the drugs if a person wants them they will find them no matter who they have to screw. either way i like the idea and dislike it at the same time. Not everything is as cut and dry as it seems.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:44 PM
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I would be for a drug screen. Most definitely. When you walk into that social services office, and sign those papers you are already making the choice to forfeit your privacy.

But rather than turn away and deny every drug addict from benefits they are qualified for, I would prefer that they are required to seek counseling and help for their drug problem and agree to do so in order to receive welfare. Imagine the benefits to this since it could possibly help the drug addict turn their life into a more productive one so that they can get off drugs, and support themselves /families.

Those who don't choose to adhere to this, simply lose their benefits.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2

Originally posted by GhostR1der
reply to post by mopusvindictus
 


AMEN right back at ya


Another point I wish to raise...

The cost of testing (especially in triple confirmations etc) would probably be more than the cost saved getting people off welfare who were abusing substances. If they truly cared about welfare they'd stop spending (sorry: printing) lots of money to fund their excessive and wasteful military budget.
2c


Let me ask you though, how do you know who is on drugs without testing for it?


It dosn't matter who is on drugs if they are compulsive it is one aspect of a bigger issue, they can't get up and go to ework, they do drugs there is an underlying issue only time with as hrink will get to the bottom of it in many cases...

at least in the cases of people who abuse the system not people who need some short term help and empower themselves which can be anyone at anytime given bad luck...

so alot of people use the money poorly...

but everyone keeps losing rights on these issues...

In sandiego..some people drank and caused fights so no one can drink now on the beach

a small percentage of drinkers cause accidents, so millions of people get dui's

some people become uncontolable addicts so no one can do drugs

after katrina some people bought porn with their relief money so next disaster no one will get relief money

there are terrorists so we all get searched on planes even nice old ladies lol

now...

lets make welfare drug tested so the people who aren't addicts maybe if they want to smoke a dube loose the ability to help themselves...


Where do we draw the line on the freaks in our society not ruining a good time or upward mobility for everyone else?

Theres already a war on drugs, they risk arrest when they do these things already, it's enough... if g-d forbid I ever needed help for a few months I don't need a probe up my ass because others take advantage

Guns, some people shoot people in crimes so the rest of us are loosing that

insurance some people cause accidents so all our rates go up particularly in certain age groups.

it's frackin ridiculous already, there will always be cheats and freaks and there is no changing it, the good people shouldn;t go through more red tape and bs because "some peple" take advantage



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by LateApexer313
 


Thats the total cost of Health and Human Services not Welfare...

katrina doesn't count as welfare lol, You get hit by a Hurrican your house bows down and you have to be drug tested to get Aid?

How are these aspects HHS part of a debate on welfare recipients and drug testing????

WTF

Child services is an agency that has nothing to do with people recieving welfare that a police state thing anyone can just call Child Services and report anyone and lowlifes do this as way of attacking their neighbors, 90% of calls that send these people out and costs come up with Nothing at all in terms of abuse, sometimes when they do find abuse it's things as trivial as mom was smoking cigarettes

what again do these things have to do with welfare recipients?

HHS is a huge myriad of programs that have been put in place in all apsects of society alot of them interventionist and annoying and people didn;t ask for them


This is ONE aspect of HHS, welfare and we can group in emergency aid for FAMILIES and food stamps

That's it and it's not that huge

Car accidents your listing? wtf do peoples car accidents have to do with welfare recipients?

Natural disasters?

Give me a break... my numbers are right actual welfare is not huge

and your talking since Johnson lol 5.5 Trillion since Johnson

thats 28 years

28 years 5.5 Trillion for the entirety of HHS, the military far out paces that in a similar time frame... FAR outpaces it and I'm not complaining about paying taxes for that either!

The current us budget is
2.8 Trillion a year

That means we will spend in the USa the total cost of 5.5 Trillion on welfare over almost the last 30 years every 2 years right now!

The Total Military expenditure per year is 500 Billion +

in only 10 years our military expenditure will outpace the total to date spending on all of HHS..Including Natural disasters, emergencies, health care and everything else they do...in ADDITION to welfare (again the one thing we are talking about here) by 3x the amount

3x the amount on killing as oppossed to helping people of your tax dollars at work


Don't throw figures at me like i'm some dope... what hyper inflated nonsesne that all was... Natural disasters counting in as Welfare expenditure 100 Billion for Katrina WTF should you do if your hit by a hurican lay over and drown in the water because you can't get a new place to live?

Your figures are the same crap about HHS thrown at nme yesterday and it's BS, HHS is NOT Welfare it's HHS

and you'd damn well expect something to help if your life was ruined by a hurricane, or brdiges needed retro fitting for earthquakes, 90% of HHS is not welfare

and again if it was total military spending triples all of what is done by HHS

and what is 5.5 Trillion over 28 years for ALL of HHS?

It's under 200 Billion a year for all of HHS,

it's around the cost if you sold Google a single US company

There are companies that have that kind of money individually let alone the budget for All the Health and Human Services provided to the entire 300+ Million people in the USA

5.5 Trillion Sounds like alot in perspective it's nothing

Under 200 Billion of a 2.8 Trillion Dollar budget. something like in total 7.5% of the entire HHS is your tax dollars at work

So thats what you pay 7.5% of your no social security taxes which is probably 1/3 of your taxes for ALL of HHS not just welfare

and yeah when you break down welfare and foodstamps out of that 7.5% for all of HHS your left with no more than a maximimum of 1% or 2% of your tax dollars at work to feed a house the poor...

If you make 1,000 a week that's about 1.60 of your money or lets say 2% to be fair 3.20 cents a week for you as a middle class american to help the poor


What do you need a chia pet?

3.20 at tops from a 1,000.00 paycheck

and Animals thiunk they need to castrate people, dope test them take away their welfare

and the sad thing is those people don't make 1,000.00 a week in most cases...

so buck up the 160.00 or get the F off ats and do something that pays ore than minimum wage... and don't sweat the Buck and half or so it costs you








[edit on 20-8-2008 by mopusvindictus]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:55 PM
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That's why it's all the more important to overhaul the food stamp system and limit it to basic ingrediants. People will learn to eat healthfully if they are limited to healthy ingrediants.


Now see, this is where I disagree. If a person qualifies for and adheres to the laws of the program, they should be entitled to buy whatever food they choose. Personally, I want no say on what other's put into their mouths. That, is intrusive. I might not like the fact that the mother using food stamps loads up her house full of crap food for her family, but no one gets a say.

I'm all for nutritional education, such as some booklets and a possible class with a nutritionist as they have with WIC, but after that....they have the choice.

I was on food stamps when my husband was laid off for six months. I sure can't imagine someone telling me I can't buy hamburger because it's not good for me. Or a vegan telling me I can't use my benefits to buy meat. Or a health nut saying I can't buy that box of donuts I've been craving.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 09:36 PM
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g-d... I'm still realing at the utter inabiity to figure numbers over time...

less than 200 billion a year for all of health and human services

aproximately 600 bucks per US citzen avg and (trust me I bet my share is closer to 1,500 and most peoples 200)

and what does that amount to all year... a weeks pay

a weeks pay for all of HHS, maybe 2 weeks pay for Military and another week for, lol everything else...

Thats what it is we give away maybe a months pay per years o have the mightiest Military in the world, public transportantions, library, welfare unemployment, great highways our schools and every thing else we have...

and we Bitch about it...

welfare by itself is maybe 1 day of your year

and people would castrate people over it

stop and think about how grotesque and greedy and amazingly frightened sheeple everyone in this country is becoming... can't do a days work to feed every one that needs to be fed in America

can't give a couple weeks of your year to see that our boys have good equipment when fighting for you to play wii when you get home

or sit in here wasting yout time on ats as if...sitting hee you couldn;t be making up the 600.00 a year all of HHS costs per capita

so screw it don't pay when a disaster hits your home town I hope they jab needles in your moms arse to see if she gets high lol

LOl maybe you drop dead and your child is left with your wife alone and they prod her like a cattle so she can get some damn cheese and milk and she gets denied on a flase positive and has to suck your best friends privates to feed him that week


the 40.00 a week for all of HHS will prevent you from buying a new video game because that is any less crack than some weed is lol

and lord knows every single person reading this is of such use to society sitting here on ats talking sh for the last 24 hrs since this is posted that we can't possibly spare the time to make back the 40.00 and we are all such winners that we can judge someone who wants to eat and is to screwed up to get it done themselves.

Very big, very big indeed





[edit on 20-8-2008 by mopusvindictus]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by damurph
 


Those people agree to testing in return for a Job they requested

I have never applied to a job that tested in my life even if entirely sober.



I must assume that by "Those People" you are talking about the U.S. Soldiers I had referenced in my post.

I had joined the Military in 1981 entering into a 3 year contracted service. At the time I had entered the service there was no talk of drug testing. The testing started without a renegotiation of my contract. We were all obliged to undergo the testing or be dishonorably discharged.

This is no light thing to a young soldier, serving their country.

You can call me dense, if you wish, but I can't see how anyone can justify the expenditure of my tax dollars on illegal drugs by those accepting government assistance.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 09:46 PM
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What a great Idea (hopefully law in the future) who would of thought ! I've been piss tested (randomly) since 1978 .(Military ) I love this idea !.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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One of my friend's mothers is on welfare. She still has two kids at home. She has some disabling mental issues, and dealing with those with a job while having to raise her children would be near impossible.

She has tried many different prescriptions to deal with her issues, but they do nothing but harm her. At one point she was having seizures from her meds. The only thing that works to cure her ills is a plant that starts with M.

Can anyone tell me the justice in her losing the source of income which feeds her children because the poisonous prescriptions her doctors give her don't help? I can't. No drug testing---absolutely not (or just legalize the plant I mentioned above).

[edit on 8/20/2008 by iceofspades]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by Asherah
 


My proposal is to limit the food stamps to basic ingrediants like veggies, fruit, flour, ect. The building blocks, not the building.

Everybody would be able to eat what they want, they would jsut have to cook it themselves.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by iceofspades
One of my friend's mothers is on welfare. She still has two kids at home. She has some disabling mental issues, and dealing with those with a job while having to raise her children would be near impossible.

She has tried many different prescriptions to deal with her issues, but they do nothing but harm her. At one point she was having seizures from her meds. The only thing that works to cure her ills is a plant that starts with M.

Can anyone tell me the justice in her losing the source of income which feeds her children because the poisonous prescriptions her doctors give her don't help? I can't. No drug testing---absolutely not (or just legalize the plant I mentioned above).

[edit on 8/20/2008 by iceofspades]


Hi ice,

As someone posed already, we are not including people using "M" for medical purposes. These people would still be tested, but their use of "M" would be overlooked since it is prescribed.

I have also stated that I persoally beleive that "M" should be legal, and that the testing should be for the hard-core drugs.

It also sounds like your friend's mom has a legitimate reason for her claim--we are not pointing the finger at that kind of person, but at the ones who use welfare to perpetuate an addiction or to avoid work.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


You know this is intrusive

BUT

I have to say I see a huge problem has developed in America due to nutrition, it does make a person lazy and mentally deficient to eat all sugars and processed foods and trans fat

I can't say I see anything much wrong with limiting ...maybe 80% to be fair to genuinely healthy food groups.



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