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Sarkozy warns Russia: withdraw from South Ossetia or face the consequences
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The fact is Ossetia had SEPARATED from Georgia in the early 90s. Just because it was not "internationally recognized as sovereign" does not make it
the case. If international recognition was the basis for sovereignty then you may as well say that everyone is the property of those international
bodies and nobody the right to self determination. Ossetia is not and has no desire to be part of Georgia. Russian response was expected and
justified. Georgia is a US puppet.
The US UN and its media whores would like us to believe that Georgia and Ossetia is one country. This is a lie. Ossetia was an independent republic in the early 90's. If you look at the history of Georgia, Russia and Ossetia, Ossetia became a part of the Georgia in the early 20's. Georgia was a long time part of USSR. Georgia became independent around early 90's after which it began ethnic cleansing of Russian population of Ossetia. This eventually led to a treaty a ceasefire and Russian peacekeepers going in.
I guess GWB the UN and their gang of crooks really want us all to believe that their benevolent wisdom should not be questioned and that Georgia has the right to be masters of the Ossetian people. After all just because you can break away from the evil communist rule does not give you or any part of your country the right to separate from this newly formed Utopian US puppet state.
The US UN and its media whores would like us to believe that Georgia and Ossetia is one country. This is a lie. Ossetia was an independent republic in the early 90's. If you look at the history of Georgia, Russia and Ossetia, Ossetia became a part of the Georgia in the early 20's. Georgia was a long time part of USSR. Georgia became independent around early 90's after which it began ethnic cleansing of Russian population of Ossetia. This eventually led to a treaty a ceasefire and Russian peacekeepers going in.
I guess GWB the UN and their gang of crooks really want us all to believe that their benevolent wisdom should not be questioned and that Georgia has the right to be masters of the Ossetian people. After all just because you can break away from the evil communist rule does not give you or any part of your country the right to separate from this newly formed Utopian US puppet state.
I don't suppose that anyone has considered the possability that the whole thing is an orchestrated and pre defined dance by both sides for power
consolidation purposes. You know that both sides win in this if you consider both sides to be the power grabbing leaders.
Only the people loose. The leaders on both sides get to look tough, talk tough and consolidate their personal power.
[edit on 18-8-2008 by Cyberbian]
Only the people loose. The leaders on both sides get to look tough, talk tough and consolidate their personal power.
[edit on 18-8-2008 by Cyberbian]
If I recall correctly Europe or most of it gets their gas and oil from Russia. All Russia has to do it just turn off the pipeline and then see what
Europe will do. I am sure that Europe will suffer far worse this coming winter. But I hope that some sort of solution will be found for all parties
concerned and this too shall pass. Just watch what the commodities market is doing and you will see in what direction Russia is going. They seem to
know more and faster than any governments somehow.
Originally posted by Cyberbian
I don't suppose that anyone has considered the possability that the whole thing is an orchestrated and pre defined dance by both sides for power consolidation purposes. You know that both sides win in this if you consider both sides to be the power grabbing leaders.
Only the people loose. The leaders on both sides get to look tough, talk tough and consolidate their personal power.
[edit on 18-8-2008 by Cyberbian]
I'm pretty sure that the conflict between Pakistan and India over Cashmere is just that.
This incident has too many NeoCons involved for it not to have BushCo's fingerprints. But just as well, it might serve Russia's purposes, to force a hard line in the sand between east and west -- and it works better for them that Bush is probably scaring their people as much or more than Putin is scaring ours.
I don't really know. I suggest, for purposes of national security, that people like Karl Rove be detained and questioned on the matter.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Why does everyone languish in the assumption that Russia's military tech is so obsolete? I've heard the phrase 'Rusty old nukes' twice at least.
It's a stupid assumption, and if you bothered to research the claims you were making, you would know that. From what I've read, the Russians still have thousands of missiles/warheads that defeat countermeasures such as lasers and EMP, and deliver between 500kt and 20mt of nuclear beatdown.
They've got mobile launch capability in the form of submarines and truck launchers, and of course they've got the bears. That's not even taking into account their land-based platforms.
The Russians also have some of the best tactical ABM tech in the world - certainly they have A LOT more of it deployed than we do.
As of 2005 they had more nukes than any other country, and better nukes, if your criteria include survivability/evasion and payload.
Russia has, almost without a doubt, the most lethal cruise missile tech in the world.
I don't want to come across as some sort of cheerleader, but I'm so sick of reading all these asinine assumptions that Russia is just some dinosaur with obsolete tech just waiting to die.
We spend more, and get less. They spend less, and get more.
It's a flaw in the American mindset that we see spending more than everybody else as the measure of success. I got news for you - my Oldsmobile cost eight hundred bucks and I can beat any stock Porsche off the line. It's not what you pay that matters - it's what you get for your money. Unless you consider the severance packages of defense industry execs as a meaningful measure of military might...
If we ever went to war, don't you think Russia might stop selling every ounce of weaponry they produce and start fielding it? I challenge you to compare our manufacturing base to that of Russia. We exported the bulk of our factories - if we ever go to war our opening salvo is going to have to be lawyers loaded into catapults, because that's the only thing we have a surplus of right now.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by The_Alarmist2012
Russia is well aware of the consequences and has made plans
accordingly, and has been for many years.
My only question is how long has most of the world leaders
known that it was coming to what the Russians are planning for
at Mount Yamantau.
www.globalsecurity.org...
I summed up all the things that I have found that seem to
point to it, but most won't even consider it as viable and
dismiss it out of hand.
Here is a link to the post and you can decide for yourself.
The planned End of the World as we know it
Russia is well aware of the consequences and has made plans
accordingly, and has been for many years.
My only question is how long has most of the world leaders
known that it was coming to what the Russians are planning for
at Mount Yamantau.
www.globalsecurity.org...
I summed up all the things that I have found that seem to
point to it, but most won't even consider it as viable and
dismiss it out of hand.
Here is a link to the post and you can decide for yourself.
The planned End of the World as we know it
Pardon me for not reading all of the posts, but the title of this thread grabbed me,if Sarkozy actually said this, then he/NATO should prepare there
army's for fighting in Georgia,Russia will NEVER leave SO.This keeps going from bad to worse, now you'll have to excuse me, I have to find me an
island some where.
[edit on 19-8-2008 by all2human]
[edit on 19-8-2008 by all2human]
[edit on 19-8-2008 by all2human]
[edit on 19-8-2008 by all2human]
Originally posted by bigvig316
I feel that this whole fiasco over in Georgia could have been avoided if our military wasn't stretched so thin. We consider Georgia an Ally and we are sponsoring them in to NATO. The reason we were doing that is to have a close launching pad to fight Iran and keep an eye on Russia. I feel that Bush, being a war monger himself, dropped the ball and let this situation happen in the big global game of Risk they all play with our lives. There should have been an end to the Afghanistan situation by now freeing up troop to protect us and our Allies.
WW3 is in full effect and Newt said it would happen.
Yes, the plan for WW3 is well under way.
The Russians have been preparing for years, and our
government officials knew and as far as I can tell 99%
of the public doesn't even know what is coming.
From Nuclear Stealth Cruise Missiles on those old bombers,
to the massive underground facility prepared in Mount Yamantau.
www.globalsecurity.org...
paragraph # 5 for stealth capabilities.
www.globalsecurity.org...
I outlined it all in another post, and how asleep the sheeple are,
but most ppl will not even consider it and dismiss it out of hand.
I still feel I need to let ppl know what is coming.
The planned End of the World as we know it
Good Luck to you all !
Georgia should surrender, we already have our hands tied with Iraq & Afghanistan....the last thing we need to do is go against Russia- especially if
crazy George W wants war with Iran. Being an Ally to someone doesn't require self-sacrifice. Sorry Georgians but you got yourself into this, we
can't be brought in. Russia is a key ally, not Georgia. Too many threats going back and forth. I only hope we stand on the sidelines. We simply are
stretched beyond capacity.
I dont necessarily think that Russia is taking over but they dont want to leave, thats for sure. Why is it just the U.S. and France saying something...Where's China, Germany, and the rest of Europe???
America is too battered down to keep trying to be a world police force. We've all had enough.
I dont necessarily think that Russia is taking over but they dont want to leave, thats for sure. Why is it just the U.S. and France saying something...Where's China, Germany, and the rest of Europe???
America is too battered down to keep trying to be a world police force. We've all had enough.
The bigger France talks, and the U.S. as well, the longer Russia will stay in Georgia. I know that is what I would do if I was Putin. Georgia messed
up big time, and that is all there is to it.
The thing is, this was not done without a hidden agenda. I say conquest for the Artic is what this is more about. Ye old distraction technique.
The thing is, this was not done without a hidden agenda. I say conquest for the Artic is what this is more about. Ye old distraction technique.
Sarkozy was prob holding holding on to nursemaid Merkels testicles for a surge of testosterone. Then hid behind her dress then yelled at the
Russians. Frogs are pussies by genetic fault.
God, so much blame on the U.S., bunch of whiny babies, take some responcibility. So, Georgia is innocent? Poland? France? The EU? AHHH the big bad
west made us all do it! Seems to me like a coalition against Russia from all sides. Unless the whole of the EU are just Bush's puppets, yeah right.
Such simple minded people.
Before the Gunfire, Cyberattacks
www.nytimes.com...
This is the first I have heard of this.
[edit on 103131p://bTuesday2008 by Stormdancer777]
www.nytimes.com...
Weeks before bombs started falling on Georgia, a security researcher in suburban Massachusetts was watching an attack against the country in cyberspace.Jose Nazario of Arbor Networks in Lexington noticed a stream of data directed at Georgian government sites containing the message: “win+love+in+Rusia.”
Other Internet experts in the United States said the attacks against Georgia’s Internet infrastructure began as early as July 20, with coordinated barrages of millions of requests — known as distributed denial of service, or D.D.O.S., attacks — that overloaded and effectively shut down Georgian servers.
Researchers at Shadowserver, a volunteer group that tracks malicious network activity, reported that the Web site of the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili, had been rendered inoperable for 24 hours by multiple D.D.O.S. attacks. They said the command and control server that directed the attack was based in the United States and had come online several weeks before it began the assault.
This is the first I have heard of this.
[edit on 103131p://bTuesday2008 by Stormdancer777]
Don't even get me started on Sarkozy. Even before he was elected French president he was already saying how much he loved good ol' USA. Now he's
trying to push a new type of presidency in the EU, similar to that of USA, where the president takes real control. Not to mention he is going trought
with the Lisbon threaty even though the Irish voted "NO". In case you don't know, that is illegal, every country must vote "YES"
The day Europe has that kind of presidency is the day the world is doomed.
The day Europe has that kind of presidency is the day the world is doomed.
Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
reply to post by welivefortheson
i see this all as a method of political manouvering,at home and abroad.at home the seek to rally the people behind them via a common enemy within the context of a war.
I did a double take to see if you were talking about Russia or the US. 'War on Terror' (common enemy), taking on the SuperPower Iraq, etc,etc.....
such tactics my friend have been going on since the dawn of civilisation in ancient mesopotamia, several thousand years ago and before.we are in a cycle,and endless cycle dictated by the principles underlying human nature.
as the lion stalks its territory,its nation,as the lion seeks to expand its boundries,as the lion seeks to gain power so does man for its in our genome,from whence it was written,deepest darkest africa.
we are just getting more organised at projecting our nature and its having hugely drastic consequences.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Why does everyone languish in the assumption that Russia's military tech is so obsolete? I've heard the phrase 'Rusty old nukes' twice at least.
Because people have been made to believe that all things communist are inferior. I would not assume that Russia is not a match for the USA, because that is a dangerous assumption, and provoking them on issues like Georgia and pushing the missile defense shield in Poland will only increase the danger. I have yet to see anyone present evidence that Russia is indeed incapable of defending itself against the USA... wonder why?
It is possible that many people believe the Russian bear died with the "end of the cold war" Is it an illusion?
It could be possible that the Bush administration wants to make sure that the obvious next president will have to deal with global crises that will leave little time to deal with the legacy of the previous 8 years. Start more conflicts and then escape to Crawford?
You only have to read a few posts on these forums to know that this site is a festering pit of anti-Americanism. I especially love the ones who think
Russian equipment is superior to the West's. Funny stuff.
You guys keep patting each other on the back, it makes for some good comedy.
You guys keep patting each other on the back, it makes for some good comedy.
reply to post by Vanguard223
Glad you enjoyed the show.
First of all I am not anti American, I am however highly skeptical of the Bush administration, especially when you look at the history. We have been lied to time and again by these people, with them everything has a military solution. They have and are showing their incredible hypocrisy over the Georgian situation, and even going as far as provoking the Russians. Why place a missile defense system so close to Russia to protect Europe from attacks from nations like "Iran"? Why constantly use the press to force the Russians to pull out of Georgia, rather than letting them leave on their own terms?
Many millions around the world have also called on the Americans to leave Iraq, we are still there!
It all comes down to trust... I don't, maybe you do.
If we are going to provoke the Russians, there had damned well be a good reason for it.. Lies will not suffice. We aren't talking Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, or North Korea here.
[edit on 20-8-2008 by The_Alarmist2012]
Glad you enjoyed the show.
First of all I am not anti American, I am however highly skeptical of the Bush administration, especially when you look at the history. We have been lied to time and again by these people, with them everything has a military solution. They have and are showing their incredible hypocrisy over the Georgian situation, and even going as far as provoking the Russians. Why place a missile defense system so close to Russia to protect Europe from attacks from nations like "Iran"? Why constantly use the press to force the Russians to pull out of Georgia, rather than letting them leave on their own terms?
Many millions around the world have also called on the Americans to leave Iraq, we are still there!
It all comes down to trust... I don't, maybe you do.
If we are going to provoke the Russians, there had damned well be a good reason for it.. Lies will not suffice. We aren't talking Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, or North Korea here.
[edit on 20-8-2008 by The_Alarmist2012]
reply to post by The_Alarmist2012
It's easier to hit a missile on it's downward trajectory than to catch one on the way up, that's why they want to put the ABM's in Poland. What does it matter anyway? How is posting a strictly defensive weapon system in a N.A.T.O. country provoking the Russians? Do the Russians have a right to say that we can't defend ourselves or allies from nuclear attack? They're just angry that the missiles could be used to knock down Russian nukes if Russia decides to nuke someone. Simply put, the Russians are getting upset that might not be able to obliterate a Western nation if they choose to. Explain to me again who is in the wrong here?
The Russians are jerks...they always have been.
Let me ask you a question...how far do you think Russia would go if the United States didn't exist? I'm sure you think they'd just be nice guys and leave everyone alone since they have such a long history of minding their own business.
It's easier to hit a missile on it's downward trajectory than to catch one on the way up, that's why they want to put the ABM's in Poland. What does it matter anyway? How is posting a strictly defensive weapon system in a N.A.T.O. country provoking the Russians? Do the Russians have a right to say that we can't defend ourselves or allies from nuclear attack? They're just angry that the missiles could be used to knock down Russian nukes if Russia decides to nuke someone. Simply put, the Russians are getting upset that might not be able to obliterate a Western nation if they choose to. Explain to me again who is in the wrong here?
The Russians are jerks...they always have been.
Let me ask you a question...how far do you think Russia would go if the United States didn't exist? I'm sure you think they'd just be nice guys and leave everyone alone since they have such a long history of minding their own business.
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