War in Georgia

I feel like the 64 page thread on the war (in breaking news) and this 25 page thread should somehow be merged. Lots of duplicate info.

reply to post by Mainer


I started this thread about 12 hours before the other thread was started.

Reuters:

Russian Foreign Minister calls for the President of Georgia to be removed.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by infinite]

Should have heard the US guy at the UN go on about Russia wanting to achieve a 'regime change' in georgia. How do these EU officials keep a straight face ? It's like being accused by Hitler of being anti-semite.

reply to post by maloy


I have seen pictures of civilian casualties of war, however your claims that these were purposely gunned down by the Georgians are unfounded.

I am watching the BBC News Channel as we speak, they have reporters IN Tskhinvali who, at least as far as the last report was concerned, wern't being shelled at all. As I mentioned however reporters on the boarder WERE being attacked by Russian jets.


Georgia is on the brink of joining NATO. I find it hard to believe they would take part in such an open and evident 'genocide' it they are trying to gain the support of the NATO nations.

Your views present nothing more than a fanatical belief in the infallible nature of Russia. History has shown time and time again this is not the case.

reply to post by I3LiP


Georgia isn't on the brink. Many European nations opposed Georgian membership of NATO. Germany tried to put South Ossetia on the agenda at the last summit, but the United Kingdom opposed it.

Due to many separatists movements in Europe, Georgia will not be allowed to join NATO. The same applies to European Union membership - some members states are against Georgian membership.

reply to post by infinite


The point was not wether or not NATO wanted Georgia, but the fact that Georgia wanted to join NATO. You are arguing a completely different point to the one I am making.

Originally posted by I3LiP
I have seen pictures of civilian casualties of war, however your claims that these were purposely gunned down by the Georgians are unfounded.

Have you seen pictures of S. Ossetian civilians?

So you deny that Georgia conducted a massive artillery strike against Tskhinvali? I'll mark your response down, and remind you of it when the smoke clears.

And no - they were purposely gunned down not by Georgia but by freaking Santa Clause and his elfs.

Originally posted by I3LiP
I am watching the BBC News Channel as we speak, they have reporters IN Tskhinvali who, at least as far as the last report was concerned, wern't being shelled at all.

Shelling started about 3 hours ago and lasted for an hour. They were not shelling the entire city.

Why don't they film the hundreds of dead bodies littering the streets? Would that go against their agenda?

Originally posted by I3LiP
As I mentioned however reporters on the boarder WERE being attacked by Russian jets.

Georgia attacked Russian reporters by air strikes about 12 hours ago. How can they identify whose jets these are? And where exactly are they being attacked? S. Ossetia? Near Georgian units on the border of S. Ossetia?

Originally posted by I3LiP
Georgia is on the brink of joining NATO.

You still think it is? I got news for you.

Originally posted by I3LiP
I find it hard to believe they would take part in such an open and evident 'genocide' it they are trying to gain the support of the NATO nations.

You find it hard to overcome your predisposition towards the conflict. Facts are staring one in the face.

Originally posted by I3LiP
Your views present nothing more than a fanatical belief in the infallible nature of Russia.

Russia is not infallible. I severly criticised Russian conduct in Chechnya. I severly criticise Putin's failure to fight corruption. And I criticise Medvedev's renewed support of the business oligarchy. It's just that the later two are not being discussed on ATS.

Originally posted by I3LiP
History has shown time and time again this is not the case.

As if history has shown that U.S. allies have always conducted themselves infallibly.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy

could I see the source for the continuing shelling of Tshinvali?

reply to post by I3LiP


And my psychopathic neightbor Mikheil wants to join NATO too and make his house part of NATO enclave. I seriously hope NATO comes to his aid when the men in white come to take him away.

BBC News and Reuters has just said that the Russian navy has just sunk a Georgian ship carrying missile.

Russian Navy has sunk a boat carrying arms to Georgia.

Just broke on the BBC.

Al Jazeera claimed the United Kingdom effectively vetoed a US proposal to use "force" if Russia didn't leave South Ossetia.

reply to post by I3LiP


Ukraine wants to join NATO too, I don't see Russian tanks crossing the border. Georgia only used military force because it though the UN or NATO would provide military support to his state - they haven't.

EU and NATO both refused to get involved.

reply to post by infinite

Al Jazeera claimed the United Kingdom effectively vetoed a US proposal to use "force" if Russia didn't leave South Ossetia.

Do you think the U.S. will follow suit on the veto?

reply to post by jhill76


This happened last night when no statement was presented. Apparently, the US wasn't best pleased with Europe and was annoyed.

Europe was passionately against using force because a) we want the lights to be still on and b) do want to risk economic links. And, the UK didn't want to risk World War III either.

Plus, Russia wouldn't want to upset the EU neither. The Union is currently working on a single defence pact - which will effectively kill NATO. To be fair, the EU and Russia have very good economic and political relations.

reply to post by infinite


Thanks. In your opinion, do you think the U.S. will go on a solo mission on this one without support, or stand by the veto?

reply to post by Xylaphonic


I believe this happened over 12 hours ago, when I first reported it from an unconfirmed Russian source. It might have happened again though.

reply to post by jhill76


If the US goes alone - Bush will start World War III. Europe will end up getting involved because the Eastern Europeans will want to "stick it in".

Also, I do not think the Chinese will stand by and watch their ally fight a bloody conflict with America.

Here is one theory for why Saakashvilli attacked:


NATO does not accept nations which have pending territorial disputes and unfinished conflicts. Saakashvilli desperately wanted to join NATO however as he expressed many times, so that he could feel powerful sitting in his little boy's chair in Tbilisi.

Saakashvilli, knowning that his days in powered are numbered - untill the next elections, decided to speed up Georgia's entrance to NATO. He planned to first take S. Ossetia by Blitzkrieg, and storm through the republic in one day. These plans were discovered by Russian soldiers who have captured a Georgian staging base of operations near Tskhinvalli. Maps for this operation and Georgian plans were shown on Channel One news in Russia. The maps show that Georgian troops planned to take Tskhinvalli in 3 hours after artillery stopped shelling the city, take Zarskay road in 5 hours, and advance all the way to North Ossetian bordered with 15 hours.

That would give him one breakaway republic down, and one to go. But seeing as how he would be unlikely to repeat the act in Abkhazia, South Ossetia could satisfy him, and he could let Abkhazia go. Alternatively Saaka could turn his Blietzkrieg through the Kodori Gorge - although that seems inplausible.

With South Ossetia beat downa nd part of Georgia, and Abkhazia pushed out of the way, he could not make an appeal to enter NATO before the Russians woke up.

reply to post by maloy


Another theory is the Olympics.

Georgia really thought no one would notice and with Putin in China, the Russian President would be a push over. If Russian did respond, Georgia still thought the response would be limited.