Baghdad, Five Years On: Desperate Life And Failed Surge

This is the only time I am going to say this.

I went to Iraq as part of the surge. We fought for 6 months and then the mission changed. The people started to work with us. We built a government center where local Iraqis could go to voice their concerns. One school was re-opened and another is nearing completion at this moment. A health clinic was build and a water treatment facility. A soccer field was also built and I remember soldiers spending their own money to get the kids a ball or two.

Is Iraq hell? Yes it is. For an American soldier it's hard to come to any other conclusion when comparing Iraq to the US. But the fact is that our AO improved by leaps and mounds. During the second half of the deployment Iraqis would invite out team over for lunch parties. I know what your thinking about over time your belly can get used to it over time (we lived with the Iraqi Army at a patrol base).

If you take one thing from this with you take this. We went to some of those meetings in the town hall (government center) and these Iraqis aren't talking about the reasons for the invasion. People are focused on everyday life. I talked with the Iraqi Army soldiers whom I worked with and they were vary worried about this next election. We (the US soldiers) know the Iraqi army is not strong enough yet and they know it too. Before I left I told them that I would pray for them. I don't know how they are doing today but I hope for the best.

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
reply to post by Ownification

 

Your post is so ignorant and full of hyperbole and errors that it's not worth responding to directly. If you want to discuss this, do it objectively and focus on a single coherent VERIFIABLE issue. Otherwise you are ideologically motivated and nothing I say will change you even though I have the benefit of seeing with my own eyes. If there was anything to suggest we were losing or unjustified in being here I would be the first to scream it at the top of my lungs.

-DA

OK honey let us discuss this in a proper fashion and proper manner. You say my post is ignorant and full of hyperbole and errors yet you didn't mention which part, I would have been happy to provide sources.

Let us start with one or maybe two issues. "If there was anything to suggest we were losing or unjustified in being here I would be the first to scream it at the top of my lungs."

Let's start with the justification of the war, is that kool with you??

Was it the WMD?? Did you sir sign up for war because of WMD?? Or did it by any chance have anything to do with Saddam's mysteriouse connection with Osama Bin Laden??

In the build-up to the U.S. invasion in 2003, Bush and other administration leaders argued that Saddam should be removed from power because he had stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and was actively seeking to build a nuclear weapon.

Subsequent investigations concluded that he did not have such weapons, and in an appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Cheney acknowledged that, “clearly, the intelligence that said he did was wrong.”

SO if both of those justifications were proven false over and over again what other justification left?? Umm I got one, Saddam is an evil man who did evil things against his own people. Great, is that the justification of going in to this war?? Didn't the US support this evil man before the Kuwait invasion?? Didn't Saddam Hussein get his weapons from America to go to war against Iran which America deeply supported?? Iraq used Chemical weapons against Iranian civilians and it's own civilians as we know, so he wasn't an evil man back then but now he is?? What made you change your mind??
i94.photobucket.com...

Was he not as murderouse as before?? OK now let us talk about justification. Do you have the right to invade a country because you suddenly decided that their leader is an evil man?? How can you justify that?? Many countries out there believes that the American leaders are evil people, no matter who the people vote for, still the same policies apply. They believe it will never change, does that give them the right to invade America? Does that give them the justification?? American leaders have cause many disasters around the world, I can only begine to count. Those countries who have been negatively affected by the America forein policy, have much more of a right to bomb America than America boming a nation which posed empty threat. Explain please the justification in your little worm hole. Explain which angle are you viewing the world from please.

Should we be permitted to attack a nation which poses empty threat?? Or should we be permited to attack a country which poses live threat, eg. USA. America is a threat to any country which opposes it's ideology or goes against its interests. Now let us go back to history of Iraq before Saddam came to power. Remember when a socialist leader was chosen democratically by the people of Iraq 'Qassim'. He wanted to nationalise oil industries, wrong move dude, he forgot about the American interests


You guess the after math..

The CIA had a hand in it. They had funded the Ba'ath Party - of which Saddam Hussein was a young member - when it was in opposition.

US diplomat James Akins served in the Baghdad Embassy at the time.

"I knew all the Ba'ath Party leaders and I liked them," he told me.

"The CIA were definitely involved in that coup. We saw the rise of the Ba'athists as a way of replacing a pro-Soviet government with a pro-American one and you don't get that chance very often.

"Sure, some people were rounded up and shot but these were mostly communists so that didn't bother us".

news.bbc.co.uk...

Justifiy please I'll eagerly wait.

Your puppet in Iraq made it clear ."get out of Iraq".
they don't want you there ,are tired of you murdering ,raping ,and torturing their people.

the war is lost !
just as was the case in Vietnam, if you do not get out ,you will leave with your tail between your legs.

this isn't a war it is a war crime
One that American males stand like peacocks beating their chest we have won.

what have you won a broken economy ?
while the bone heads in the military fight so that congress senate and president all line their pockets off the feast of tax dollars being stolen from the American people
bone head military people are breathing Depleted Uranium.
killing innocent people who defend against a preemptive force you use ww3 tactics and munitions against men in rags and call home to mommy for more armor.

all the while your freedoms are being stripped away at home
when you return you they will through away like a dirty rage.
while the Americans are losing their freedoms at home you want to bring your freedom to those that do not want it.
You not only have lost the war you have lost America in the process.

reply to post by Styki


Kudos and thanks for your service.
So many will conveniently deny what is obviously working because it goes against whatever they they feel or have been told, can't handle the truth I guess.
Most of these people will also say drilling will not work.

Thanks again

Oh yes, things are so brilliant in Iraq now. One million dead, and four million refugees. And this so-called "surge" is really just coincident with the decline in violence because they have mostly killed each other. Oh, and unemployment is at 40%, way higher than it's ever been under Hussein. I think I'll take the word of an Iraqi civilian over that of a U.S. soldier in regards to the state of things there. The whole thing has been a HUGE humanitarian disaster. How can the loss of 1,000,000 lives be justified? What does victory in Iraq look like anyway?

reply to post by Alxandro


Alxandro, first I would like to say think you for understanding.

Ghofer, victory in Iraq today is an Iraq where the population has a voice in who will lead their country. Victory in Iraq is when "freedom fighters" lay down their weapons and put away their IED's, not because they have nobody to fight against but because they realize that Iraq will be a better country if they do so.

Go ahead, take the Iraqi civilians word over a US soldiers. I just spent a good portion or my life over there. Do you really think I care about what your opinion on who to believe is? Want to know what I care about right now. There were Iraqi children who would give us bread when we were hungry because on the patrol base you get food two times a day, if conditions where good enough for the shipments get there. I stood on guard with, went on missions with, and ate with the Iraqi Army. I relied on interpreters from different parts of the country and all of them had different perspectives on the war. But all of them knew that the US needed to stay in Iraq. I care about these people infinitely more than I care about you opinion on US soldiers. And if this US leaves Iraq, I will worry for these peoples wellbeing.

Solo1, are you ok? You seem troubled. First of all, nobody is beating their chest. It's seems like a pointless act and nobody gets anything out of it but if that's your thing go ahead and do it because that's a pretty big post you made there and you did a lot of trash talking in it.

This war is not lost. It was actually won as far as military standards go but we are still working out the whole getting the country to rise up part. Little by little they are starting to understand if they work with us instead of fighting us then we can be helpful.

Men in rags, I don't think the Iraqis prefer to be called that but you live in America so feel free to do as you like. People in the military died for you to be able to say that.

A broken economy... I would have to say that is the only reason the US should leave Iraq. This war is costing us a lot of money. The US has it's own problems that it needs to be concerned about. However, the US did start this war. For whatever reason the war was started at this point is irrelevant. Now, at this time the US is now responsible for the wellbeing of Iraq. I believe that the US must take responsibility for it's own actions. We have to stay in Iraq until the Iraqi government is able to defend itself. If we leave at any time before that point many more people will die.

As far as the US throwing soldiers away like a dirty rag. Congress just two months ago approved the new GI Bill and Bush signed it. I am going to ETS (get out of the Army) and my college is going to be payed for. Yep, I'm going back to school. It's a huge help to so many soldiers, and if you could only see what the army has to offer. On the government side it's a lot and then within the army with all the programs and opportunity's it's amazing. If this is what the dirty rag looks like then I would like to see the clean one.

And many Iraqis, love their freedom. They just can't wait till their country is a little more stable and their economy gets better.



[edit on 5-8-2008 by Styki]

Originally posted by noangels
Yeahh lets ignore the vids above and take your word for it

Things were a lot better there before your lot arrived there sunshine.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by MemoryShock]

Well I could easily turn around and make a video on youtube myself. Will you believe it then?

Im sorry, but the guys ive listened to are guys on the ground. Yes its hell, heck its the middle east! But the you can't say things haven't gotten better.

These guys do have pride in doing what they do, they probably think to themselves "this is #ty" but go back with little to no complaint because they are there to serve and protect. A lot of the guys over there signed up after the war was already labeled a cluster "screw".

A lot of these guys have been treated just like the men from vietnam. Many who were happy to serve, but instead the media and other people said they weren't proud to do so, in result it paints a bad picture to the average citizen

That's all i'm really qualified to say. When making history, its unfortunate blood will be spilled.

Hopefully, a hundred years into the future, the history books will outline how many protested the war, but the country will have grown into a country of freedom for those that inhabit it.

reply to post by Styki

If you take one thing from this with you take this. We went to some of those meetings in the town hall (government center) and these Iraqis aren't talking about the reasons for the invasion. People are focused on everyday life. I talked with the Iraqi Army soldiers whom I worked with and they were vary worried about this next election. We (the US soldiers) know the Iraqi army is not strong enough yet and they know it too. Before I left I told them that I would pray for them. I don't know how they are doing today but I hope for the best.

Iraq only
KIA totals as of August 4, 2008 US 4,132; UK 176; Others 138; Coalition Total 4,446. icasualties.org... No acknowledgment of Iraqi dead. Between 78,000 and 300,000 from various sources and for various causes. But in any case these dead folks are dismissed as "collateral damage" over here.

I am not much for prayer Mr S. I don’t see GOD as being present there or here. Voltaire said it right: “GOD is on the side of the largest battalion.” An astute observation. I just do not know how GOD can help our side KILL their side. I think GOD must be asleep. See "With God on Our Side," a song by Bob Dylan, released on his 1964 album The Times They Are A-Changin'. en.wikipedia.org...
Hear it at www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

All soldiers of every army are subjected to very well thought out mental gymnastics to make white look black and black look white. The US DoD has dozens of highly paid psychologists on staff to make up a scenario that can be sold to American GIs based on the historical American culture. Sometimes labeled as propaganda especially when done by our opponents. More likely called “information dissemination” when we do it. Or BS in soldier’s lingo.

Despite the risks we as a nation run in producing a half million automatons, they are useful. Rule No. 1 in the military of all nations is: OBEY all lawful orders. I assure you, obey comes first, and deciding what was lawful comes as an afterthought if at all. A lawful order is any order given by a higher ranking person to a lower ranking person. Face it, it cannot be any other way. A military that does not follow orders from its superior officers is not an army; it is a mob wearing the same color clothes. There is NO Rule No. 2. See Note 1.

Support the troops. Our political leaders wrap themselves in the flag! Who said, “Patriotism is the last refuge of fools and knaves?” I attribute it to Howard Zinn. Whoever it was, he or she was a keen observer. See Note 2. It is quite difficult to oppose a war and yet, to also support the selfsame people who are waging the war at the same time.

To urge the mindless "support" of any war is in reality a deftly calculated distraction, a diversionary tactic used by the leaders of a country who have taken their people into an unpopular war or a failed or failing military adventure. I have labeled America’s March 18, 2003 preemptive strike against Iraq the Second Punitive Expedition to Iraq. That war must surely have violated the United Nations Charter forbidding wars of aggression. 420,000 US servicemen gave their lives in World War 2 to establish the UN. Launching this War rendered their service and sacrifice to have been done in vain. The British famously used punitive expeditions during the halcyon days of empire. Iraq reminds me of one such as was portrayed in the famous movie Gunga Din. See Note 3.

Young men are chosen to wage war. Not old men. Why? Because young men have few of life experiences on which to form judgments. Young men do not have the same perception of personal danger older men develop. Young men tend not to be so much risk averse as older men. Young men will bond more easily with other young men similarity situated. Emotionally and intellectually immature, they can be more easily formed than older men.

Lest you think I’m anti-military, I am not. But I almost always oppose the way our Government employs our military. I opposed our excursion to Granada. I opposed our invasion of Panama and our illegal detention of Manuel Antonio Noriega in the basement of a Federal building in Miami since 1990. The US has claimed extra-territorial jurisdiction. It appears more likely he angered his CIA handlers and he serves as a living example to other Heads of State not to make that blunder. We can reach out anywhere!

Personal. I have more than 6 years service in the Army National Guard and the active duty Air Force, plus 4 years in the AF Reserve (inactive). I was a volunteer at the time of a draft. I had a choice. 2 years as an Army infantryman or 2 years in the MC 99% sure to be in an infantry battalion. I could have enlisted for 3 years in the Army or MC and picked my branch from those available. Exigency of the service always dictates your assignment. But I chose the 4 years of AF service (over the Navy) where I could still wage war on behalf of my country, but sleep on clean sheets at night. And ride in a truck instead of carrying a 60 pound pack on my back for 20 miles. A ground pounder!

I have no experience with women at war. Personally, I would not want to serve with women at or near the front line. Or in close support as we in the AF call it. But I was after all raised by people who were themselves raised by people who were alive and well along with Queen Victoria. I am no doubt influenced by their concepts. I do have 3 grand-nieces who keep me in some not always understandable contact with the younger generations. I am well past the “keep them barefoot and pregnant” exploitive attitude but there is a quantum leap for me from equal pay for equal work to carrying ammo for a woman on point! A leap I have not yet made. As I admitted elsewhere, but for SpellCheck I could not write Millennium Generation.


Note 1. General Orders for Sentries. Order No. 6. To receive, obey, and pass on the sentry who relieves me, all orders from the commanding officer, officer of the day, and officers and noncommissioned officers of the guard only. www.usmcpress.com...

Note 2. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. [Samuel Johnson] www.eden-study.org...

Note 3. Gunga Din (1892) is one of Rudyard Kipling's most famous poems, perhaps best known for its often-quoted last line, "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!" The poem is a rhyming narrative from the point of view of a British soldier, about a native water-bearer who saves the soldier's life but dies himself. Like several Kipling poems, it celebrates the virtues of a non-European while revealing the racism of a colonial infantryman who views such people as being of a "lower order." The poem inspired a 1939 adventure film from RKO Radio Pictures starring Cary Grant, Douglas Fairbanks Jr., and Sam Jaffe in the title role. en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 8/5/2008 by donwhite]

Soldiers - Iraqi workers here is the reality for you - YOU DO NOT WORK ALL OVER IRAQ. Pure and simple. The battle grounds shift and move. The directive at the moment is to "clear and hold" - why ? Because as an area is cleared in the past it would simply shift - the military would follow and the area previously cleared would be again over run.

The British have recently admitted to being completely humiliated through the Accommodation - they (200 soldiers) were trapped in the airport and had to negotiate to retreat. How is this a step forward ? Further they had negotiated to no longer engage the enemy - the "Accommodation" - forcing the Iraqi Army to engage on there own without any U.S. or U.K support.

The REAL reason things have calmed down is because Iran has negotiated with the insurgents - this has been acknowledged by the U.S. and the U.K. and is the great humiliation in Iraq. The Shiite led government is working hand in hand with Iran -

You can work all you like in one small obscure part of the country - but you know nothing of the rest, and even if you see some improvement in one area this does not mean it is translated to the rest and it SURE AS SH!* does not mean it is because of the surge.

You are simply equating one with the other without any clear understanding of the politics or behind the scenes machinations.

If you think for a SECOND that Iraq is a situation on its own without considering the recent developments with Syria and Sarkosky, the PARS oil field, etc,etc then you dont think.

Why on earth would some medium to low level military - civil servant know the picture in Iraq, yet alone the middle east. The wouldn't. Simple. Those who spend their time collating information, reading, researching and investigating all possible sources from around the world are going to know more than some individual who is a low level cog in military machine.

Iraq is the greatest is one of the great tragedies in human history - that is a fact - and America is entirely responsible for it. The idea that this troop surge is in any way responsible for the quelling of Iraqi insurgency (sunni or shiite) is just ridiculous in the extreme. This war is ALL ABOUT POLITICS and has almost nothing to do with your efforts.

Sorry to disappoint, I know its not your fault and that you are not responsible, but do not for one second think you know more than someone sitting in their office behind a terminal., Do you think you know more than Cheney or Bush - they haven't been beyond the Green zone, but they have all the information they need.

Best of luck in realising the reality of life.

"Problem. Bush43 had to stop a nosy Congress from January, 2007, until October, 2007. "


Umm expect it was the Democratic leadership that closed down Congress for the month of August. Why? Because she did not want a vote on opening up oil production in the US.

Seems that about 70% of the US population want us to start getting our oil from here instead of there.

reply to post by dismanrc

Umm expect it was the Democratic leadership that closed down Congress for the month of August. Why? Because she did not want a vote on opening up oil production in the US. Seems that about 70% of the US population want us to start getting our oil from here instead of there.

That is why the Founding Fathers gave us a REPUBLIC and not a democracy. You can't trust the dum-dums with weighty decisions.

How ironic, the war mongers call "propaganda!" when the entire premise of the war was sold on propaganda. It may be propaganda but those hailing the success of the surge seem to have short term memory loss and forget the pretext completely.
Winning the battle? Who cares, the only winners are the profiteers.
War is business plain and simple, always has been and soldiers are pawns for corporate profiteers.

reply to post by squiz

Who cares, the only winners are the profiteers. War is business plain and simple, always has been and soldiers are pawns for corporate profiteers.

It is ironic that the general who more than any other won our Revolutionary War, and the general who led the largest invasion force ever assembled into Normandy and saw it through to the end of the War in Europe, would BOTH warn us in their parting thoughts, to be wary of the military-industrial complex. And here we sit, dumbfounded but accepting that the US must spend MORE than 50% of all the world’s expenditures on the means of killing other humans, which we in an Orwellian twist, call DEFENSE.

Pentagon Prayer: "GOD, give us an enemy worthy of our weapons!"

Originally posted by audas
Soldiers - Iraqi workers here is the reality for you - YOU DO NOT WORK ALL OVER IRAQ. Pure and simple.

I do.

The British have recently admitted to being completely humiliated through the Accommodation - they (200 soldiers) were trapped in the airport and had to negotiate to retreat. How is this a step forward ? Further they had negotiated to no longer engage the enemy - the "Accommodation" - forcing the Iraqi Army to engage on there own without any U.S. or U.K support.

Work with the Brits. Total BS.

The REAL reason things have calmed down is because Iran has negotiated with the insurgents - this has been acknowledged by the U.S. and the U.K. and is the great humiliation in Iraq. The Shiite led government is working hand in hand with Iran -

And this is a bad thing to you? I prefer trading words rather than EFP's but I guess you have to get IED'd to understand.

You can work all you like in one small obscure part of the country - but you know nothing of the rest, and even if you see some improvement in one area this does not mean it is translated to the rest and it SURE AS SH!* does not mean it is because of the surge.

You really just don't know how ignorant that statement is. You write as if our battlefield is like WWII or 2nd Gen warfare.

Why on earth would some medium to low level military - civil servant know the picture in Iraq, yet alone the middle east. The wouldn't. Simple. Those who spend their time collating information, reading, researching and investigating all possible sources from around the world are going to know more than some individual who is a low level cog in military machine.

Low level cog in the machine? Wow. You are greatly underestimating the average U.S. Soldier.

Iraq is the greatest is one of the great tragedies in human history - that is a fact - and America is entirely responsible for it. The idea that this troop surge is in any way responsible for the quelling of Iraqi insurgency (sunni or shiite) is just ridiculous in the extreme. This war is ALL ABOUT POLITICS and has almost nothing to do with your efforts.

LOL, more people died in Mexico this year fighting the "War on Drugs" than all the soldiers killed in OIF. Also, if you didn't come here and fight like the rest of us, hold your tongue about what effects the surge had because you obviously don't know. That "surge" was one of the greatest strategic surprises of modern warfare and it's effects are still being felt regionally.


I always knew most people were ignorant about what is happening here but this is simply unbelievable!

After reading this entire thread I must say that if I really want to find out what's going on in Iraq, I will listen to people like Darthamerica and Styki who are actually there or have been there during this war.

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by squiz

 

Who cares, the only winners are the profiteers. War is business plain and simple, always has been and soldiers are pawns for corporate profiteers.

It is ironic that the general who more than any other won our Revolutionary War, and the general who led the largest invasion force ever assembled into Normandy and saw it through to the end of the War in Europe, would BOTH warn us in their parting thoughts, to be wary of the military-industrial complex. And here we sit, dumbfounded but accepting that the US must spend MORE than 50% of all the world’s expenditures on the means of killing other humans, which we in an Orwellian twist, call DEFENSE.

Pentagon Prayer: "GOD, give us an enemy worthy of our weapons!"

You idealist are so amazing in how naive you are. The USA benefits more than any other nation globally. It's only natural because our interest are so vast that our military spending is going to greatly exceed nations who live under the blanket of security we provide and only need to worry about protecting their own borders.

The only real problem our military has is that we focus too much on the Cold War scenario and don't know how to deal with the fact that our threat environment has changed from one of war with other great powers to war with individuals, NGOs and failed states. The DoD tries to much to focus on nations like Russia and China who will never be able to challenge us militarily and who we would be very unlikely to go to war with BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE GOT USED TO DURING THE COLD WAR, rather than on the failed states out there...

www.foreignpolicy.com...
www.opec.org...

...none of which can challenge us technologically. These wars may not require hundreds of F-22's and Abrams tanks to win but they do require lots of manpower and time. So the amount we spend is very necessary and only going to increase. Killing other humans is a part of our nature and very necessary at times. It's common throughout most species to kill each other when interest are threatened. This is just the way life is.

Iraq will be a much better place because of what we have done. I'm proud to have been a part of that. So should every American because Iraqi children will grow up in a better place because of what our nation has done. No one said it would be easy, people would not die or that with would be cheap. Only that it was necessary.

My only regret is that our President wasn't very good at communicating the reasoning behind the war to the American public and this is what has turned a lot of people off to it. The man is not perfect but he sure is a very capable wartime leader and that is not debatable if you have seen the progression of this war. I just hope whomever replaces him whether its Sen McCain or Sen Obama can take the progress in Iraq and further develop it into something even better. I think both can and I look forward to serving under their leadership as well.







[edit on 5-8-2008 by DarthAmerica]

Originally posted by solo1
Your puppet in Iraq made it clear ."get out of Iraq".
they don't want you there ,are tired of you murdering ,raping ,and torturing their people.

And where in Iraq did you serve and witness murder, rape or torture by US soldiers? Also what Iraqi told you they wanted U.S. troops out of Iraq?

the war is lost !
just as was the case in Vietnam, if you do not get out ,you will leave with your tail between your legs.

Really? We just got a request for M1A1 tanks and C-130's. Seems like the Iraqis plan on a long relationship with the U.S. Military. Also, violence is way down. I can travel freely through Iraq and probably not even get a rock thrown at me in 99% of places. So tell me, who exactly is about to chase me out with me tail between my legs?

this isn't a war it is a war crime
One that American males stand like peacocks beating their chest we have won.

What exactly do you mean? Can you articulate that?

what have you won a broken economy ?
while the bone heads in the military fight so that congress senate and president all line their pockets off the feast of tax dollars being stolen from the American people
bone head military people are breathing Depleted Uranium.

Wow you are full of all the usual anti-war rants. Also, I just had my medical survey. It seems I'm not a victim of DU poisoning? Sure you are talking about the right war?

killing innocent people who defend against a preemptive force you use ww3 tactics and munitions against men in rags and call home to mommy for more armor.

Innocent? That's an odd way to describe an opposing force. And I assure you there weren't men in rags. You betray your supreme ignorance when you say such things.

all the while your freedoms are being stripped away at home
when you return you they will through away like a dirty rage.
while the Americans are losing their freedoms at home you want to bring your freedom to those that do not want it.
You not only have lost the war you have lost America in the process.

You know, the only satisfaction I would take in losing is knowing that I would already be dead and you would be in perpetual dhimmitude with the rest of the cowards.

Originally posted by Styki
reply to post by Alxandro

 

Ghofer, victory in Iraq today is an Iraq where the population has a voice in who will lead their country. Victory in Iraq is when "freedom fighters" lay down their weapons and put away their IED's, not because they have nobody to fight against but because they realize that Iraq will be a better country if they do so.

Go ahead, take the Iraqi civilians word over a US soldiers. I just spent a good portion or my life over there. Do you really think I care about what your opinion on who to believe is? Want to know what I care about right now. There were Iraqi children who would give us bread when we were hungry because on the patrol base you get food two times a day, if conditions where good enough for the shipments get there. I stood on guard with, went on missions with, and ate with the Iraqi Army. I relied on interpreters from different parts of the country and all of them had different perspectives on the war. But all of them knew that the US needed to stay in Iraq. I care about these people infinitely more than I care about you opinion on US soldiers. And if this US leaves Iraq, I will worry for these peoples wellbeing.
[edit on 5-8-2008 by Styki]

Why wouldn't I take an Iraqi civilians word over yours about the situation there? It's their country. Sure you are doing some good and may help some people but how can you possibly justify the 1,000,000 dead and 4,000,000 refugees? And good luck with your version of victory. It won't happen. I'm sure your motives are good but those of your government certainly aren't.

For my information on Iraq, I listen to my best friend who is a Major in the U.S. army serving as a medic who has had 2 deployments in Iraq. He tells me of the battle of Falujah where the Americans bascially leveled the city as retalitation for the Blackwater killings there. They let women and children out first, as well as boys not of combat age (over 14). Then they attacked and levelled the city. BBC reports have confirmed that. He was furious at the situation. He'd get in trouble from his superiors for administering medical aid to the "insurgents". He'd have to make nighttime raids into town with a couple of his army buddies to rescue civilians and bring them back to camp to give them care.

It has been one big humanitarian disaster. There can be no disputing that and nothing can be done that will ever fix that wrong.

First of all, wars in general are humanitarian disasters. America didn't make war that way. In fact America more than any other country has reduced the amount of bloodshed on all sides in war. Thats not disputable. However, there are times when precision attacks don't work. When that happens you get wider destruction. It is not wrong, it is just war.

You are probably misinterpreting your friend or your friend, "The Major" served under a bad command which exist in all armies BTW and America is not immune to having immoral soldiers. However, if your friend was not allowed to treat insurgents, it was probably due to safety reasons. I've seen that happen. Our policy is to treat any person who is no longer a threat provided it's safe to do so. The first persons I shot over here, I personally called for the MEDEVAC helicopter and provided the security to facilitate that evacuation on American Helicopters.

No one said war was pretty. It's not. But it is necessary and very often extremely brutal and violent as both sides struggle to win. I mean, they do cut off heads of captured and wounded and degrade bodies. So, if they experience a certain level of brutality in return, it's not really all that surprising is it. If you think so, google, Nick Berg and watch his video and let me know what you think...

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
You idealist are so amazing in how naive you are.

The funny thing is that you are both an idealist and naive yourself. Globalization is an ideal. Democracy is an ideal. Puppet governments are ideals.
All together, those crazy ideals represent a psychopathic view of worldwide human society where our government's opinions and corporations' interests are elevated to the level of international law and everyone else has to comply or die.

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
Killing other humans is a part of our nature and very necessary at times. It's common throughout most species to kill each other when interest are threatened. This is just the way life is.

Wow. I guess you just have to find a way justify the murder of people who presented no threat to us in order to get some sleep at night.

Let me give you an analogy. Would a man who believes that abortion is wrong, storming into a clinic and shooting to death 20% of the patients and doctors be justified because "species kill each other when interest are threatened"?

Why are the corporate interests of the America Government a more valid reason to murder someone who did not provoke any attack than religious interests of a group of people far larger in number than the US population?

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
I'm proud to have been a part of that.

I am proud of people like you who choose to make sacrifices to serve their country by trusting that the American people will not abuse such an unquestioning commitment to service.

I am not proud of my government nor my military commanders when they in engage in actions that destroy that crucial link between the military and the citizenry.

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
The man is not perfect but he sure is a very capable wartime leader and that is not debatable if you have seen the progression of this war.

Of course that is debatable! What other wartime leaders have you witnessed in action to make your statement at all valid and meaningful? Why does being a soldier give you more insight into the machinations of the command structure? A soldier is little more than a nail that is always claiming to understand the motivations of the person swinging the hammer.

The only thing that is not debatable is that soldiers have a hugely inflated view of their own positive contributions to the republic. I do sympathize - you have convince yourself of this lie or you run the risk of destroying your mind. At the same time, do not try to convince me of your self-protecting sophisms by claiming some sort of moral or ideological high-ground.

Soldiers, simply by virtue of their job, do not have any superior understanding of:
National Politics
Foreign Relations
Morality
Corporations
National Interests
ect.
In fact, I would wager that the average soldier is well below average in their ability to understand the complexities of the warfare and welfare state.

Jon