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Baghdad, Five Years On: Desperate Life And Failed Surge

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posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by Voxel

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
You idealist are so amazing in how naive you are.

The funny thing is that you are both an idealist and naive yourself. Globalization is an ideal. Democracy is an ideal. Puppet governments are ideals.


What do you mean by that?



Originally posted by DarthAmerica
Killing other humans is a part of our nature and very necessary at times. It's common throughout most species to kill each other when interest are threatened. This is just the way life is.

Wow. I guess you just have to find a way justify the murder of people who presented no threat to us in order to get some sleep at night.


No threat? I beg to differ. The people I fought were very much a threat. Also, wars don't require a person to be a threat. Assuming that is naive. I can order a war simply to take by force something I don't have, kill for racial motivations or whatever. I sleep very well at night BTW. Actually a little too much lately with the heat and all. Not a shred of guilt. Although I regret the loss of life and condolences go to any noncombatants that were hurt. But it was unavoidable in this war as it is in all wars.



Why are the corporate interests of the America Government a more valid reason to murder someone who did not provoke any attack than religious interests of a group of people far larger in number than the US population?



What corporate interest? Name a specific instance otherwise this is just you repeating what you hear others say.



I am not proud of my government nor my military commanders when they in engage in actions that destroy that crucial link between the military and the citizenry.


What broken link? My unit received tens of thousands of support letters from all over America and care packages by the ton from Americans all over. What broken link?



Soldiers, simply by virtue of their job, do not have any superior understanding of:
National Politics
Foreign Relations
Morality
Corporations
National Interests
ect.
In fact, I would wager that the average soldier is well below average in their ability to understand the complexities of the warfare and welfare state.

Jon


Wrong. Notice how I am communicating with you FROM A WARZONE. Soldiers have access to the same information you do and more. We also have TV, DvD, Magazines and any other type of Media. I am getting ATS PODCAST and others too. I have an engineering degree and many of my fellow soldiers have degrees too. Why are we too stupid to learn? This isn't the 1920's my friend. Soldiers today are incredibly intelligent and well aware of what is going on. A fair number might even actually agree with some of your points of view so by what measure are you saying we are "below average?"

If anybody is below average in their understanding it is the American Public who are too busy in their daily lives to learn about what we are doing on their behalf. This is further exaggerated by the fact that main stream media is motivated by profit and provides very little useful information about what happens here. How many of you knew that Iraq just requested ASV and Abrams tanks for its Army? How many understand the implications of that?



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 11:31 AM
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What are you fighting for, DarthAmerica? What is your mission, what is the benefit of this war to America and the Constitution? How is this war "defending our freedoms."

I would like you to know that those Iraqi's your killing (the majority at least), would be Americans in the scenario of a Chinese or Russian invasion of the States. A large group of civilians defending their homeland from an invading force that wishes to occupy their soverign state.

Iraq posed no threat to America pre-invasion, they pose no threat post-invasion. They had no WMDs, no al-qaeda link, and we certainly did not liberate them. This war is absolutely unwarraned, and yet you have the audacity to come in here and expect us to praise you as a hero. How can we praise you as a hero when you've done nothing but destroy an foreign nation for the sole greed of the elite of our country?

"Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy" - Henry Kissinger.
---------------------

I'd also like to note that your "we have all the latest technology over here. TV, DVDs, etc.." comment is questionable. My brother is in Basrah, and while he does have the internet, it cost him and his 14 other buddies $15,000 out of their own pocket to purchase it.



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by Double Eights
What are you fighting for, DarthAmerica? What is your mission, what is the benefit of this war to America and the Constitution? How is this war "defending our freedoms."


Why would I waste my time to answer you when your mind is already made up below...


I would like you to know that those Iraqi's your killing (the majority at least), would be Americans in the scenario of a Chinese or Russian invasion of the States. A large group of civilians defending their homeland from an invading force that wishes to occupy their soverign state.

Iraq posed no threat to America pre-invasion, they pose no threat post-invasion. They had no WMDs, no al-qaeda link, and we certainly did not liberate them. This war is absolutely unwarraned, and yet you have the audacity to come in here and expect us to praise you as a hero. How can we praise you as a hero when you've done nothing but destroy an foreign nation for the sole greed of the elite of our country?


I didn't ask for nor do I want your praise. Just a bit of respect that perhaps people have different opinions and also that if you are going to ask a question, be open minded enough to interpret the answer. Otherwise you just came in here to rant typical anti-war slogans for the sake of it since surely you know that is hardly likely to facilitate any sort of debate with a warrior.

Again, open your mind and perhaps you might learn something even if all it is isthat people have different points of view and that doesn't make them "greedy" "evil" "elite" "occupier" or whatever other derogatory term you have in mind. I'm just sad that you feel the way you do. Sad for you that is. But I'm happy because I know that regardless of how you feel now, no matter what country you are from, you will directly benefit from what we have done. It's not often that you get to affect 6 billion lives one way or the other so for that I am pleased. How do we affect 6 billion? How did you power your computer?

www.worldoil.com...

Go ahead and enjoy your modern standard of living. I'll say this in closing. If I'm guilty for fighting, you are equally as guilty as a consumer of the very natural resources that motivates and drives modern conflict.

Every keystroke is evidence against you as a beneficiary of and consumer of the fossil fuels. When you ask me why and then answer your own question with insults to me, how is a discussion even possible?





[edit on 5-8-2008 by DarthAmerica]

[edit on 5-8-2008 by DarthAmerica]



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by DarthAmerica
What do you mean by that?

I mean exactly what I said. Does your engineering degree preclude you from understanding straightforward English? What exactly needs clarification?


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
The people I fought were very much a threat.

Bzzt, wrong. You were the invader; you were the evil person; and you were the threat that that they were responding to. Do you see how simple it is? We fired first - it is as simple as that.

If someone fired at your house and you fired back would you be the the one who is the threat or is the perpetrator the real threat?


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
Also, wars don't require a person to be a threat. Assuming that is naive. I can order a war simply to take by force something I don't have, kill for racial motivations or whatever.

Wow. Just wow. Please, do the republic a favor and keep fighting this war for 50+ years so that such boneheaded and traitorous thinking does not ever have to come home and infect the mainland. You do the liberties and ideals you adamantly claim to be protecting a grave disservice with thinking such as this.

I think Constitution makes it very clear that it is one of the worst crimes the government can commit is ordering a war for the reasons you cited above.

According to you I am naive because, unlike yourself, I fully understand our form of government and the strict limitations that freedom and liberty must necessarily place on government.

Have you ever even read the US Constitution? Judging solely from your statements above you have never even been in the same room as a copy of the Constitution!


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
What corporate interest? Name a specific instance otherwise this is just you repeating what you hear others say.

GM, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Monsanto, Colt, Raytheon, the Federal Reserve shareholders, Halliburton, Tyco..and on and on.. The whole list could build a very large book.

A close friend of mine used to work in the MIC running a factory that made Maverick missile launcher rails. You would be thoroughly disgusted by how happy management is to hear of war. They quite literally held a party to celebrate the opportunity to convert soldiers lives into corporate profits. Is that what you support?

A soldier accusing me of repeating that I hear from others? That's a laugh! All the jingoistic crap that I hear coming from the average soldier and yet I am the one just repeating what I hear? Har-har!


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
What broken link? My unit received tens of thousands of support letters from all over America and care packages by the ton from Americans all over. What broken link?


So a country of 300 million people can send tens of thousands of support letters over the course of 5+ years. What is that on a percapita basis? 0.001%?

My elderly neighbor (bless her heart) sends care packages and has like 5 support the troop stickers on her car. She is opposed to the war and everything it stands for. She even marches (well wheelchairs) to stop the war. Is she naive? Which part of her doesn't understand the complexities of what you are doing over there on her behalf? That is the disconnect between the soldier and his public that I spoke about.


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
Wrong. Notice how I am communicating with you FROM A WARZONE. Soldiers have access to the same information you do and more. (...) I have an engineering degree and many of my fellow soldiers have degrees too. (...) A fair number might even actually agree with some of your points of view so by what measure are you saying we are "below average?"

First, how does being in a warzone grant you more information and a greater understanding regarding any of the topics I put in that list? Not a single one of them is war-related topic unless you see the whole world through only the eyes of war.

When I said "below average" I was not referring to intelligence or general ability. I was referring to the generally accepted principle that one can not objectively judge something while you are actively engaged in it. How can you ask a soldier to objectively judge commands and policies he MUST obey. You can't and you shouldn't. You can have an opinion on, for example, Foreign Relations but it is about as useless and subjective as a prisoner's opinion of prison cells.

While you are in the military, you are inside a box. You shouldn't fault the American public for being outside that box. You should look to us for guidance because we have an outside view of things. When 70% of the American public are against the war it isn't our fault for not understanding you; it is the government's and military's fault for not understanding us.


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
If anybody is below average in their understanding it is the American Public who are too busy in their daily lives to learn about what we are doing on their behalf.

The fact that so many free-people (a soldier is a slave) post in these threads in opposition to the war and yet still post good things about our troops in general shows me that the American Public isn't too busy to learn about nor empathize with what you are doing.

But the American Public isn't too brainwashed to see that what you are doing as, at best, unconstitutional and, at worst, immoral, evil, and cruel.


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
How many of you knew that Iraq just requested ASV and Abrams tanks for its Army? How many understand the implications of that?

What does this matter to the discussion. More importantly, what does this little fact matter in any discussion? Did you know I just bought a bicycle partly because of the price of gas? If not, I guess you are too busy in your daily survival to understand what is going on in your homeland.

Jon



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 12:31 PM
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Whether you feel the war was right or wrong is not the issue, because the war is not what this specific thread is questioning.
Sure mistakes were made going into Iraq, everyone admits this, but even if the war had been carried out flawlessly the same pessimists, crtitics, terrorist sympathyzers and appeasers would be saying "the US has now got the art of war down to a science".

You just can't win with these people and their off topic comments because all they know how to do is gripe.

"Baghdad, Five Years On: Desperate Life And Failed Surge" is the title of this thread which means the issue is the surge itself, and YES it has been a success.



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by Alxandro
Sure mistakes were made going into Iraq, everyone admits this, but even if the war had been carried out flawlessly the same pessimists, crtitics, terrorist sympathyzers and appeasers would be saying "the US has now got the art of war down to a science".

You just can't win with these people and their off topic comments because all they know how to do is gripe.


Sure Iraq isn't the biggest military debacle in American history, no one can deny that but even if the war were going horribly you would always have the same fascists, socialists, and genocide enablers supporting the horrible policies of the government.

You can't win with these people and their off topic comments because all they know is how to be unquestioning servants to power and authority.

Jon

EDIT:

"Baghdad, Five Years On: Desperate Life And Failed Surge" is the title of this thread which means the issue is the surge itself, and YES it has been a success.

Only if you measure success from a purely militaristic point of view by measuring casualty numbers. The videos in the OP were not about how well the grunt is doing in Iraq but how well the Iraqi's are. From every point of view, other than the number of flag-draped boxes coming home in airplanes, the surge can be said to be a failure.

Has the greenzone expanded? Has the Iraqi government been more self sufficient? Are utilities back up and running 100%? Has unemployment dropped significantly? Is infant mortality down?

Jon

[edit on 8.5.2008 by Voxel]



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by Alxandro"Baghdad, Five Years On: Desperate Life And Failed Surge" is the title of this thread which means the issue is the surge itself, and YES it has been a success.


To quote Voxel, "bzzt wrong!"

www.theglobeandmail.com...



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by Voxel
 


You will never win at anything with such a pessimistic attitude.

BTW, do you spell it Kumbaya or Cumbaya?



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by Alxandro
You will never win at anything with such a pessimistic attitude.

BTW, do you spell it Kumbaya or Cumbaya?


You guys are all over the map when you can't think of any content. First, I am labeled a pessimist and then you mention a folk song that expresses irrational optimism. Care to explain yourself or should I just chalk it up to being "challenged"?

Jon



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by DarthAmerica
 



Notice how I am communicating with you FROM A WARZONE. I have an engineering degree and many of my fellow soldiers have degrees too. Soldiers today are well aware of what is going on. A fair number might agree with some of your points of view . . How many of you knew that Iraq just requested ASV and Abrams tanks for its Army? How many understand the implications of that? Wrong.


Last month I read “Come Back To Afghanistan: A California Teenagers Story” by Said Hyder Akbar as told to Susan Burton. 320 pp. Bloomsbury USA, 2005. $27.95 ISBN-10 1582345201

The author was born in Afghanistan. At age 2 his parents fled to Pakistan to avoid the Taliban regime. By his age 6 the family was settled in California. Akbar finished 2 years in Junior College before returning to Afghan with his father who had been asked back by Hamid Karzai. In 2005 - when the book was written - Akbar’s father was made a Provincial governor by Karzai. He walked from the capital at Kabul to the province of his father, taking 14 days to cover the rugged terrain.

From his day by day account of two such trips, I learned how complex the tribal relationships are in Afghan and how little those people outside Kabul need or depend on Kabul. It’s really like TWO countries sharing a common name. The author doubted Osama bin Laden was still in Afghan. Osama is said to be over 6 feet tall. Most men of Afghan are less than 5 ft 9 in. It would be impossible for a physically distinct outsider to remain in Afghan for so long and his whereabouts not become “common” knowledge. I recommend it as a book on background.

In June I read “Confronting Iran: The Failure of American Foreign Policy and the Next Great Crisis in the Middle East” by Ali Ansari. 304 pp. Basic Books, paperback,$20.50 ISBN-10: 0465003516. This author chronicles the endless series of blunders committed by uninformed American officials since 1953. After the Embassy crisis ended in 1981, the US State Department treated Iran as if it no longer existed.

Worse, all of State’s Farsi speaking employees - many tended to be sympathetic with the Persian traditions - were shunted aside and put into other career paths. The author asserts we still are shamefully understaffed with few knowledgeable people which is compounding our problems with Iran. He mentioned an incident in W-DC that caused him to write that our current president did not know the difference between a Sunni and a Shia Muslim. A story which I believe. We know Bush43 read only part of the 5 page summary of the latest 93 page NSE - National Security Estimate.

I have just started “In the Line of Fire: A Memoir” by Pervez Musharraf. 368 pp. Free Press, 2006. Hardcover $30.50 ISBN-10: 0743283449. I’m up to page 102 where he - Musharraf - was just made Chief of Staff. Musharraf is much like Colin Powell. He came up through the ranks without family connections.

Whatever he has he got it the hard way. Of course, he lost the last election and is on the way out. Benazir Bhutto was assassinated December 27, 2007. Musharraf is in the awkward position of having to prove he did not order her death. Even if some of the ISI are implicated, it is not proof it was committed on Musharraf’s orders.

Pakistan, like Afghanistan, are what could be called bifurcated countries. Ten percent of the people in each country are European educated, usually wealthy and are comfortable mixing with US and UK elites. They are personally secular and want to bring Islam into the 21st century. Which in both countries leaves 90% of the population OUTSIDE this very tightly guarded inner circle.

We have backed the 10% in Vietnam, in Pakistan and now we have that much support in Iraq. Ten percent. The Iraq R&Fs. Rich and famous. Not a group for which I have any admiration here or there.

I think it must be true that 1) Osama bin Laden is hiding in Pakistan, and 2) Bush43 no longer has any interest whether he is found, captured or even killed. After Bush43 failed to capture bin Laden in the run-up to the 2004 election, the White House strategy changed. He - ObL - does not matter now. After the publicity debacle Saddam’s trial proved to be, I feel sure bin Laden would get the same treatment Che Guevara got from the CIA in Bolivia or that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was no doubt killed after capture on White House orders on June 5, 2006. One Saddam trial was enough!

I am personally pleased to see Iraq PM Nuri Al-Maliki got a big shot of testosterone after Bush43 was rebuked in the 2006 election. There is hope for Iraq. He (and Obama) are now asking for a time certain when the US Armed Forces will be out of Iraq. The hang-up right now is the Status of Forces agreement which no self- respecting sovereign county would sign-on to. Bush43 (and Blair) wanted sweetheart oil concessions for ExxonMobil and BP but the Iraqi are not going to do it. It seems pretty clear from over here that Baghdad has more friends in Tehran than it has in W-DC and they no longer give a dam what W-DC think! Years after we are long gone, they will still be neighbors. Iraq and Iran.

As an unreconstructed ANTI colonialist I am pleased. I do hope all Americans are able to get out of Iraq safely. Unfortunately for the Armed Forces, that is more up to politicians in W-DC than to anyone on the ground in Iraq. It may be we can finally repeal the Monroe Doctrine?

[edit on 8/5/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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People never cease to amaze me. funny how we used to be best friends with saddam.helped him plenty of times now we hang him like an old west vigilanty.funny can yall awnser what did iraq do to us?how can we so called when this war? Tell me whats a victory with iraq. AND yes it is another NAM execpt far worse. we americans tend to forget there people to and not dirty savages just as we all have heard time and time again



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by Alxandro
reply to post by Voxel
 


You will never win at anything with such a pessimistic attitude.

BTW, do you spell it Kumbaya or Cumbaya?



It's almost pointless to debate with people like this. They are so convinced of themselves that any disagreement means "you are locked" in a box. Yet, most of these people rarely travel more than 50 miles from home except to commute and then only to work for 8 hours a day in a cubicle. Ignorance truly is bliss. But to be honest I would HATE to live in their world. A world where everything the government does is evil and for KBR or "Bush". I would thing they should want to take up arms and liberate the government. Oh, but wait, people like this usually dont support the 2nd Amendment either...lol

All I want on the net is for one rational person to explain without any rhetoric and with some facts why they feel the way they do. Just focus on one issue and logically connect the dots. They almost never can. NOT EVER. Pitty, so much emotion and so little logic they have.



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by DarthAmerica



Worse, State’s Farsi speaking employees sympathetic with the Persian traditions were shunted aside and put into other career paths. The author asserts we still are shamefully understaffed with few knowledgeable people which is compounding our problems with Iran. He mentioned a incident in W-DC that caused him to write that our current president did not know the difference between a Sunni and a Shia Muslim. A story which I believe.


Wrong. We have plenty of people who understand Persia. Particularly the President of The United States who ordered the surge when the "conventional wisdom" in 2006 was withdrawal was imminent. COMPLETELY disrupted the regional calculus and set the stage for the current US/Iranian progress.


We have backed the 10% in Vietnam, in Pakistan and now we have that much support in Iraq. Ten percent. The Iraq R&Fs. Rich and famous. Not a group for which I have any admiration here or there.


Wrong again. We back, fight and die for all Iraqis and they know it. I can't even count how many poor Iraqis my unit has helped ON PURPOSE and also individual soldiers who on their own did things for Iraqis. One time I'll never forget is when we were going on patrol. We had a bunch of toys we ordered and gave out the to local kids who usually come to get water or food from us when we pass by. The smiles and joy was priceless. Also, there is a particular stretch of road we opened up for the locals that was filled with IED's and insurgents the local population badly needed to live their lives and we gave it back to them completely safe to use. Following that the locals worked with us to keep it that way and even removed IED's at great risk to themselves so that we could pass safely. I can't get into too much detail about it other than that but I know our benefit to Iraq is by no means limited to the rich nd famous. The mere suggestion of it by someone who has never been here is so arrogant to defy belief!



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 



I am personally pleased to see Iraq PM Nuri Al-Maliki got a big shot of testosterone after Bush43 was rebuked in the 2006 election. There is hope for Iraq. He (and Obama) are now asking for a time certain when the US Armed Forces will be out of Iraq. The hang-up right now is the Status of Forces agreement which no self- respecting sovereign county would sign-on to. Bush43 (and Blair) wanted sweetheart oil concessions for ExxonMobil and BP but the Iraqi are not going to do it. It seems pretty clear from over here that Baghdad has more friends in Tehran than it has in W-DC and they no longer give a dam what W-DC think! Years after we are long gone, they will still be neighbors. Iraq and Iran.


Wow then you really don't understand whats going on do you? Al-Maliki made those statements in support of our negotiations with Iraq. It was made public and not rebuked by the USA in order to demonstrate to Iran that the USA isn't going to pose a threat to it's western border should they chose to cooperate in Iraq and on the nuclear issue.




As an unreconstructed ANTI colonialist I am pleased. I do hope all Americans are able to get out of Iraq safely. Unfortunately for the Armed Forces, that is more up to politicians in W-DC than to anyone on the ground in Iraq. It may be we can finally repeal the Monroe Doctrine?


What utter foolery. Anti-Colonialist? dude you have to be under 25 years old. If not then you are seriously and sadly mistaken about our intentions. We aren't colonizing Iraq. We are building an alliance with them and making sure we don't have to come here a 3rd time just as we did in Europe. I hate to burst your anti-war bubble but we aren't leaving Iraq anytime soon and in fact we will be here for a decade or more helping them to build their military and secure their nation. Even if we were to physically move out of Iraq, which we wont, we would still be in the region. We just had 200 million dollar facility built to support our operations here. We are hardly leaving and if you think Obama is going to change that, well I can tell you this. That isn't what he said when he was here. But go on and get your naive hopes up and vote for either him or McCain and see for yourself how we are not leaving.

Whats being set up is a 20,000 to 40,000 strong "trip wire" garrison to ensure regional security and to facilitate rapid expansion in the event of emergency just like South Korea.



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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I highly respect the work you do for the military, in the end you are the ones protecting us even if I don't agree with most military ventures
Anyways, no disrespect but I don't take the soldiers statements too seriously. They have signed to follow blindly the commander in chief (Bush) and I believe they are not allowed to criticize him and his policies publicly.

I rather listen to everyday iraqis in blogs or such videos. They know life in Iraq more than any of us, and if the say that iraq got worse then it has. It is not because you built some schools or hospitals than things have improved. Whats the point if every time you leave your house you risk being kidnapped or blown up? Or if you cant find a job, if public services are constantly disrupted?

The US will never succeed because iraqs are not welcoming the US. They have realized that the US wants to place a puppet government and privatize their oil.



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:53 PM
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This is nothing more than a video design to counter the success of the surge which the objective is to maintain stability and reduce violence against American led troops and the Iraqi civilians. Facts have been pointed out that the number of American and civilian deaths have dropped considerably. Something which some have try to sputter about uh uh that don't mean anything. Those same people tend to use the information to measure progress like 127 American deaths a month to point out that we are losing. When last month was like less than a dozen were killed they say it don't mean anything. Hypocrites.

High unemployment is something the Iraqi govt. is responsible for, not the U.S. led coalition. Stability and peace is a means to allow the Iraqis to rebuild unless the insurgents keep targeting Iraqi workers and sabotaging infrastructures, just like any guerrilla fighters do in past wars to make peoples lives miserable.

[edit on 5-8-2008 by deltaboy]



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by DarthAmerica
It's almost pointless to debate with people like this.

I accept your admission of defeat.


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
They are so convinced of themselves that any disagreement means "you are locked" in a box. Yet, most of these people rarely travel more than 50 miles from home except to commute and then only to work for 8 hours a day in a cubicle.

I have been in nearly every continent in the world, peacefully. Have you ever traveled to places outside of your home, the base where you are stationed, or the country you are fighting in at the time?

What you said above is even more of that "disconnect" between the soldier and the citizen. You are conditioned to see civilian life as pointless, silly, selfish, and excessive. Yet, I don't think of soldiers as mindless murderers.

When we disagree about the war, you tend to see the civilian as arrogant, lazy, or scared. Yet, I see the system as faulty and the soldier as nobly following orders. That is the very core of the disconnect.


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
I would thing they should want to take up arms and liberate the government. Oh, but wait, people like this usually dont support the 2nd Amendment either...lol

I guess you don't associate with real Americans much. I, as well as most of the people I know, are closet Constitutionalists and while they are against the war and the surge, they are also very much in support of the 2nd Amendment.


Originally posted by DarthAmerica
All I want on the net is for one rational person to explain without any rhetoric and with some facts why they feel the way they do.

It is all to be found in simple plain English within the Constitution. You don't interfere in the actions of foreign governments, let alone destroy them, without an act of war.

The onus is on you to explain why waging a war with a country that did us no harm is right and not on us to explain why it is wrong.

I will give you one example of a rational fact so that we can help build a bridge between our (mis)understandings.

The half of the CIA that partakes in covert actions against governments around world without a declaration of war, is a threat to our very way of life and an affront to the sacrifice that the soldiers and patriots who died in the Revolutionary war made. That is a fact. There can be no debate if you choose to rationally look at what the CIA does around the world and the very strict limitations imposed on government power by the Constitution. The CIA and the governments actions in this regard are mostly unlawful.

Jon



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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Hmm, to say I don't know everthing is certainly a true statement. When I describe the video as being from a different perspective than yours I'm not mistaken. Perspective is everything. Perception is fact. What he sees is not the Baghdad that he remembers; so he must be lying. C'mon.

When you get back to the states you might not recognize some things but you'll still be able to safely walk down the street (for the most part). He went back to his old college hangouts and had to bargain for safe passage every where he went. Do I think he has an agenda? Yeah, I'm sure he does.

To say I don't understand the culture just because you don't like what I've said is ridiculous. I've been to the desert, does that make me an expert no, but it does remove much of my ignorance on the subject. And, I've studied the religious side of things from the perspective of those that are experts.

Lastly, I never attacked any of the troops. If there are no troops in the green zone, my bad. But my point that he couldn't go into the green zone was pretty accurate and from his perspective nothing is safer.

I never said Saddam wasn't the Butcher of Baghdad. I don't believe I've painted him in a bright light, I think what I was trying to do is see the city from the perspective of someone that lived there before the war.

Iran was free but that is apparently changing rapidly under Ahmadinejad.

Defending yourself is admirable but getting angry just makes you look angry. Do you think I don't support you? You're mistaken. Do you think I don't care that thousands of my countrymen have died in this war? You're mistaken. But, what right do you have to get angry when others have a differing opinion than you do? Isn't that part of what we are supposed to be fighting for? The continued ability of our countrymen to have their own perspectives?
True, we aren't there so we rely on the news (which lies continually), the troops (who have just as varied of opions as those of us at home do) or the occasional local who happens to let you know what's going on (from their perspective). So, please explain why we cannot listen to Mr. Arab guy who is trying to paint a picture of change for the worse and listen to you try and paint a picture of change for the better?

If you want to show us change for the better take a video camera into the city and show us the better. All I've been privy to from the troops on the ground is how many of them are acting like children, fighting each other, killing dogs etc. The good news is always tempered for us by "so and so died defending his friends". And then of course we get the good news from the troops set up in exactly the right spot to show us how "good" things are happening.

Show us from your perspective so we don't have to rely on somebody elses.



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by Voxel

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
It's almost pointless to debate with people like this.

I accept your admission of defeat.


You are hardly capable of defeating me in a debate.


When we disagree about the war, you tend to see the civilian as arrogant, lazy, or scared. Yet, I see the system as faulty and the soldier as nobly following orders. That is the very core of the disconnect.


No, when you disagree, I look for rational coherent logic. Not the emotional adolescent crap that people post. "Bushies", "Blood for Oil" and "Halliburton" ect. I don't always agree with the government. But then my disagreements are supportable by fact.



The onus is on you to explain why waging a war with a country that did us no harm is right and not on us to explain why it is wrong.


LOL no actually it's not. I voted for President Bush. He is advocating war policy I agree with. So by my vote, decision to back my vote with my life and service in the war, I've done all the explaining I need to do. If you disagree, then the onus is on you and the anti-war crowd to get into the majority where you can change policy by electing people with your views. Something you consistently failed to do. The Onus my friend, is very much on you.


I will give you one example of a rational fact so that we can help build a bridge between our (mis)understandings.

The half of the CIA that partakes in covert actions against governments around world without a declaration of war, is a threat to our very way of life and an affront to the sacrifice that the soldiers and patriots who died in the Revolutionary war made. That is a fact. There can be no debate if you choose to rationally look at what the CIA does around the world and the very strict limitations imposed on government power by the Constitution. The CIA and the governments actions in this regard are mostly unlawful.

Jon


The CIA's covert operations are under oversight by the Senate and President. They are very much lawful. Just secret for obvious reasons. All other governments have similar covert intelligence operations. If we didn't, we would not survive very long as a nation and we would have to fight wars far more bloody and at much greater cost than would otherwise be necessary. Again, I offered you an opportunity to elaborate on your disagreement. You failed. About all you have to say is you don't like the CIA for some reason without ever mentioning specific instances. You just don't like it because you don't. Probably because you think it's cool or "anarchist" or whatever. But you have done little more than bellow a lot of hot air about nothing using $5 dollar words. When you have something specific and supportable by data and logic and not how you "feel", we can discuss this like professionals do or at least adults. Until then, as I said before, I'll leave you to your conspiracies and the like. For me, I just can't find it in myself to hate my country or government or president just because. I'm a bit more reasonable and objective for that.

-DA



posted on Aug, 5 2008 @ 03:26 PM
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I don't think any of us is able to understand the suffering of the iraqi we caused, certainly not the Bush apologists.
I pity anybody's soul who thinks that 1 million dead, 4 millions displaced, and the chaos we brought to their lives is a OK price to pay. The war is one of the biggest mistake of all of mankind's history. Unprovoked wars are wrong, no matter how you look at it. People do not want foreigners to meddle in their affairs.
Our children will look back at us not understanding how cruel and greedy we have been.




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