Masonic Knights Templar vs. SMOTJ

Can someone please explain the differences between the two? That is the Masonic Knights Templar and SMOTJ (The Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem ). Both claim to be Knights Templar, however if I am correct, there is no proven coorelation between the Masonic degree and the aincient templars.

However, I have a feeling that the secrecy behind the masons helps to mask the inner workings of the Knights, and in truth, they may be more based off of the original Knights in beliefs and teachings than SMOTJ.

Can anyone shed some light? Is one more real (meaning mimicing the principals, teaching and beliefs of the original Knights Templar)?

The Knights Templar were destroyed when King Phillip the Fair of France and Pope Innocent II decided to suppress them. The reasons for this are subjects of considerable controversy. In so far as the Church of Rome was concerned, that ended the Knights Templar. If they survived in England and/or Scotland and had anything to do with the formation of Freemasonry, little if any trustworthy evidence remains of this.

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta, aka The Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, is a religious order of the Roman Catholic Church. Professed members are, under canon law, "religious" in the same sense as any other member of a religious order (Franciscan, Dominican, Jesuit, etc). Uniquely, however, they are also recognized as a quasi-sovereign state which is self-governing. They are mostly engaged in humanitarian work around the world.

Having been founded in the middle ages, they can easily claim to be the oldest order of its sort still extant. While the exclusively military orders (e.g. Templars) vanished when their military usefulness was expended (or the rulers of the day turned against them), the SMOM continued because of its function as a hospital sponsoring institution (originally for the care of pilgrims).

Does that help any?

The Masonic Knights Templar may or may not be continuing the Templar tradition, but they certainly are not subject to the will of the Holy See and their Grand Master isn't accorded the rank of a Cardinal by the Pope as the Grand Master of Malta is.

Ok, so theoretically, if someone now wanted to become a Knight Templar (as in the "old school" medievil Knight Tempar), which of the two organizations would he join (ie what would be more of what he's looking for based on the medievil code of the Knights Templar)?

Originally posted by driley
The Knights Templar were destroyed when King Phillip the Fair of France and Pope Innocent II

I could be wrong but wasn't it Pope Clement?

To answer the OP's question, i have no idea which one i would join in your circumstance, but i do know that if you want to joint he masonic knights Templar, you must be a Master Mason (3rd degree) and go through the different lodges to become a Templar in the York Rite. as far as the other organization, i have no idea and haven't looked into it much.

Originally posted by hotelguy26
Ok, so theoretically, if someone now wanted to become a Knight Templar (as in the "old school" medievil Knight Tempar), which of the two organizations would he join (ie what would be more of what he's looking for based on the medievil code of the Knights Templar)?

I don't believe there is any direct descendent. There's a 400 year gap between the dissolution of the original Templars and the earliest formations of the York Rite.

But I suppose I should ask, before going much further, what do you believe the "old school medieval code of the Knights Templar" would be? (I don't believe I've seen any written documentation of a specific doctrine attributed to the medieval knights.) So it makes it difficult to answer the question "What's closest to X?" when we don't know the value of X.

Ironically, this is the basis for my question. The mysteries surrounding the true intentions of the original Order of the Knights is what I want to find out. I am not quite sure what "X" is, but I want to know. This is the problem...

If there was indeed a spiritual or esoteric successor to the Templars, it would most likely have been the Order of Christ in Portugal, which received the Templars' holdings some years after they were abolished.

wikipedia

They survived until the 19th century, much diminished by then, and exist today as an honorary degree bestowed by the Portuguese state. But if you're looking for clues about the Templars, they'd be good to read up on. IIRC, some have tied the Order of Christ to the Rosicrucians as well.

The only other qualification to being a "Knights Templar" through the York Rite is that you must profess Christ. The last 3 degrees in York are specifically Christian in basis, if my memory serves me right. I did these degrees a couple of years ago. I had a discussion about this with a brother who was Jewish and because of this distintion he did not join the York Rite but decided to join Scottish Rite instead.

Originally posted by bushidomason

I could be wrong but wasn't it Pope Clement?

Dangnabbit, that's what I get for posting and letting my fingers do my thinking instead of my brain. Innocent II placed the Templars under exclusive Papal authority. Clement V, who was the tool of Philip IV (this is during the so-called Babylonian Captivity when the Popes were held more-or-less hostage in France), was the one who assisted in the dissolution and condemnation of the Order.

Although, I recently read that a secret proclamation was entered which declared the Templars innocent of all wrong and this proclamation was a part of what the Vatican recently released to scholars. Anyone else know anything about that?

Thanks.

reply to post by hotelguy26


You might find this thread interesting:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I actually emailed the SMOTJ to find out what all the hubbub was about; the Secretary's response to me is posted there.

You have to be well qualified to join, that's for sure. It's not an organization you just waltz into, by any stretch of the imagination.

It's been stated that the Masonic Knights Templar are not "related" to the original medieval Order; they simply use it as an allegory to teach the lessons of that degree, I'd imagine (I'm not a KT so I don't know first-hand; only what I have been told by those who are KT's).

It is, however, beyond contestation that the Masonic KT's do *not* claim any kind of connection or lineage to the medieval KT's.

The SMOTJ, on the other hand, (if I remember correctly) claims to have an unbroken line of Grand Masters all the way back to Jaques DeMolay.

HTH

[edit on 8/14/08 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by hotelguy26
Can someone please explain the differences between the two? That is the Masonic Knights Templar and SMOTJ (The Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem ). Both claim to be Knights Templar, however if I am correct, there is no proven coorelation between the Masonic degree and the aincient templars.

However, I have a feeling that the secrecy behind the masons helps to mask the inner workings of the Knights, and in truth, they may be more based off of the original Knights in beliefs and teachings than SMOTJ.

Can anyone shed some light? Is one more real (meaning mimicing the principals, teaching and beliefs of the original Knights Templar)?

They were always in opposition, that is, SMOM Vs. the original Templar Knights.

Today they are one-in-the-same organization controlled by the Vatican.

The SMOTJ today is comprised of numerous factions, some of whom claim to be direct decendants of the original Knights. They believe that there was a secreet docuement and a directly "hand's on" passing of the order. The larger groups and majority of intellectuals, however, believe that they are decendants of the traditions and values of the original Knights. The present Knights Templar all come from the 18th century reestablishment of the order in France, under Napoleon.

As for the Masonic Knigths Templar, you need first to become a Mason. Becoming a Mason should be your motivation. Also, you would need to be a 3rd degree Mason first.

reply to post by Daniel_ROT


You have to be careful in not confusing SMOM with SMOTJ [Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem]... they are different organizations. Whereas SMOM was at odds with the medieval KT, SMOTJ does document a chain back to deMolay.

The following may prove useful to those seeking...a lot of the stuff posted so far seemed pretty biased...soo...As published in The Evening Times (P15, 9/12/1996) Vatican direction from 1979 (via the Vatican’s Canon Johanes Becker) till today demands that any Templar Order be free of Masons.
The Vatican’s Cardinal Ratzinger (Now the Pope) also specifically mentions Masonic neo-orders such as OSMTHU and the USA Masonic led OSMTH as never to be recognized in a 2007 edict.
But this makes it very clear
On 26th of November 1983 the now Pope Benedict XV1 issued a Declaration on Masonic Associations (cf AAS LXXVI (1984),300.Page 3
"The Declaration of the Sacred Congregation; affirms that membership in Masonic Associations remain forbidden by the Church and the Faithful who enrol in them are in a state of grave sin, and may not receive Holy Communion or the Sacraments. it confirms to the faithful that membership in a Masonic Lodge is unlawful. It warns them such membership is incompatible with the Catholic Faith."
Statements such as outlined below from the founder of Freemason Templarism in the late 1800's based on the findings of the american Albert Pike www.freemasons-freemasonry.com... , in his investigations which led to the invention of the Scottish or York Rite, the other version of freemason Templars use John Valentin Andrea (1586-1654). According to his own admission, Andrea composed in the first years of 1600 their supposed ancient Rosicrucian book which has some very strange figure to worship in its higher levels. www.newadvent.org...
Below is an excerpt from Masonic Templarism mantra that may be of interest.
“The god of Freemasonry and the God of the Bible are not one and the same. There is a great difference between the two concepts of God. The Masonic god, "The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U), is believed to be above all other gods. According to Albert Pike, all people, regardless of their spiritual orientation, can unite under the "Grand Artificer of the Universe." The Masonic god is all-inclusive and all-embracing. All potential Masons must acknowledge a "God" in order to gain membership in the Lodge, but there is no definite criterion regarding which "God" is implied or what "God" is acceptable.”
Pike states that Masonry is the unifier of all religions and that "the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahmin, the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one God who is above all the Baalim."
Interpretation of ths information is up to you but I think the idea that freemasonry is 'old" or in any way linked to the ancient Templars is remote.
However they might be just the group some are seeking to join, but it is my thought that its best to be informed than misled.
Masonic groups that do great work include OSMTH and OSMTHU but these too are Templar styled groups.
Happy to be corected if I am wrong.


[edit on 8-3-2009 by seannachaidh]

[edit on 8-3-2009 by seannachaidh]

reply to post by driley


Hello , I will be very careful as my previous attempts to edit a post failed, the document was "found" by Dr B. Frale I think ...and is commonly called the Chinon document.

reply to post by Daniel_ROT


Hello again ,...
SMOTJ is a very old Austrian derived name later translated into french and finally into English...it is interesting in that the OCMTH masonic group misinterpreted it and actually registered themselves as the 'Supreme Military Order etc in their founders country of USA and then noticed their mistake when they went to register at the UN and then used the name of the Portugese Order that they split from ...ie...Soveriegn Military to gain cred!..... .... www.un.org... whereas the SMOM I have never heard of...the SMOTJ IFA is a an international federated alliance to try to seperate the Christian Orders from the Masonic groups using the title SMOTJ. Many of the USA OSMTH were members of the Scottish Knight Templar (currently known as OCMTH) until 1964 when they left to become members of the Portuguese led OSMTH and then in the 1995 OSMTH group Schism brought about by concern due to increasing Masonic membership within the OSMTHU group the Masonic led USA OSMTH was formed in 95. The German HSE whilst refusing to recognise the leadership of a Freemason and still attended the new breakaway council meetings ....The HSE refused to allow open Freemasonry domination in the splinter group and held them up until 1997... The HSE then left them as the freemasonry leadership had routed all semblance of the Christian leadership, the OSMTH USA was started and more importantly without any ancient directives...they just made their own up or replaced them with the 1860ish York rite of freemasonry. They have done great stuff but the following site may guide you on one f their founders. www.scam.com...
The OSMTH USA or old OCCPT current leader is very high profile ex-military officer, however he has a personal site where it shows has been given a ethiopian title by a prince (on a date that is roughly 7 yrs afer the death of the prince in question). Out of the 2 main founders of the new trademarked OSMTH (1997) a false archbishop and a dodgy bought title speak volumes. In the ex-miltary man's defence his fake archbishop and 2 IC also ran a scam selling dodgy titles for years....However he still keeps the site with the dodgy coat of arms up. www.jamesjcarey.us... Title issued in Sept 2005 but the granting Prince died in Jan 1997. findarticles.com...
It is true the title OSMTH has been used prior to that date but not by this type of neo-order group...the original Portugese users just never thought to trademark the title and it was trademarked by the USA led schism in 97.
I hope this clears any misunderstandings.

The Masonic Knights Templar don't claim any direct connection to the original Knights Templar, but our ceremonies remind us of the struggle and commitment of them while they guarded pilgrims on their trips to the Holy Land.

The SMOTJ:

SMOTJ

...is a different organization. They have no affiliation with Freemasonry and in my discussions with them they don't have any inclination one way or another about Freemasonry.

To join them I believe you have to submit a resume or CV and have pretty good character.

I don't know if they have any ceremonies or rituals but it sounds interesting as a service organization.

The Masonic Knights Templar make no claim to a direct decent from the Midevil order. However, Freemasonry (Scottish Freemasonry to be precise) holds the greatest evidence; circumstantial and otherwise of at least a loose connection with the outlawed Templars. There is far too much similar symbology in regards to Masonry and the Knights Templar for there not to be a connection. The Mosaic tiled floor in the blue lodge and the beauceant come to mind.

The Templars owned and built many if not most of the gothic cathedrals and castles in Europe so at the least you have this connection between the Templars and the ancient operative Freemasons. It's almost a chicken vs the egg problem. Did the Templars influence Masonry or did Masonry influence the Templars? Obviously, with documents such as the regius poem it's a fact that Masonry was around before the Templars. If both groups were mutually exclusive then they probably weren't after phillip le bel outlawed the order. Masonry would be the perfect pretext to allow one to travel between fiefdoms and to live on the run. John J Robinson discusses this in length and presents some very strong evidence in his book "Born in Blood".

As far as SMOTJ is concerned I don't believe they state they have a direct link either. And in fact they believe the masonic order holds the closest link.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Unfortunately you have been misinformed, The freemasonry guild did have loose links to Templars as Legates (free friends or tradesmen in good standing) however they were never Templars as they were a guild and not the organisation they are today. Occassionally legates were given the honour to be buried wiith partial ceremonies of templars and these are the graves where the legs are crossed.

The links you claim are really just overactive imagination and make for great books....let us remember that Mackey investigated the links into templar/mason heritage in the 1800's and found nothing but he did take a shine to the ceremonies and brought them back to Pike in the USA. www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

As for the claim that no SMOTJ organisation claims links is also not quite correct...there are three...the Maltese, the Portugese and the Scottish.
lastly
The “The Charter of Larmenius” of supposed 1314 listing masons within the fold, was examined by the British Library and a French research group and declared a fake (and penned probably in the late 1800’s by the language) and then publicly debunked and given back to the Freemason’s of London as a curiosity paper only.

The Rosslyn chapel was built too late and the builder the Catholic head of the St Clair (some say Sinclair) family actually testified against the Templars along with his son (his families testimony was found to be false by the King and those accused knights were released). Let us now show intelligence and be assured He was not, and the chapel never was anything to do with Templarism, quite the opposite in fact. This chapel also has many Masonic symbols (retrospectively used by todays freemasonry to give them the appearance of an acient Order when in fact they are an ancient guild)and even “the green man” a pagan symbol predating Christianity. It is just a family built chapel but it is wonderful in an architectural sense, truely a hotchpotch of symbols and the reader gets to apply specific relevance at their peril.They also have a Gnostic version of Templars claiming to be Scottish Knight Templars (skt) and if viewed as allied to the Masonic Scottish york rite of freemasonry then maybe their claim has some credence...but they are definitely not linked or recognised by the True Orders. They would sell courses. gnosis.org... is a good site to see the aims of the Gnostic movement. The confusion comes from templar graves that have been relocated there and the co-incidence that the church is based on a circle.

I pray this helps clear your confusion.

Originally posted by seannachaidh
reply to post by Daniel_ROT

 

LOOKS LIKE i MADE A MISTAKE...SORRY ABOUT THAT !!!!
the interesting part in the first paragraph should be concerning the Masonic led USA OSMTH not the christian based OCMTH...MY MISTAKE AND APOLOGIES FOR ANY CONFUSION.
Also of interest may be that the SMOTJ originally was used by the Belgian group then Austrian then French then Scottish.
So to recap...the SMOTJ is christian only and masonic members are not accepted...whereas the neoorder USA OSMTH encourage but are not limited to masonic membership.
The Order I mentioned(OCMTH) actually requires you to have a priest as one of your references and is very low key and no where near as large as the NeoOrders...but they claim to have direct links and have joining criteria that require demonstrated christian ethos and charitable deeds in God's name over a sustained period of time...years....
all the varying acronyms are hard to keep straight sometimes.


Hello again ,...
SMOTJ is a very old Austrian derived name later translated into french and finally into English...it is interesting in that the OCMTH masonic group misinterpreted it and actually registered themselves as the 'Supreme Military Order etc in their founders country of USA and then noticed their mistake when they went to register at the UN and then used the name of the Portugese Order that they split from ...ie...Soveriegn Military to gain cred!..... .... www.un.org... whereas the SMOM I have never heard of...the SMOTJ IFA is a an international federated alliance to try to seperate the Christian Orders from the Masonic groups using the title SMOTJ. Many of the USA OSMTH were members of the Scottish Knight Templar (currently known as OCMTH) until 1964 when they left to become members of the Portuguese led OSMTH and then in the 1995 OSMTH group Schism brought about by concern due to increasing Masonic membership within the OSMTHU group the Masonic led USA OSMTH was formed in 95. The German HSE whilst refusing to recognise the leadership of a Freemason and still attended the new breakaway council meetings ....The HSE refused to allow open Freemasonry domination in the splinter group and held them up until 1997... The HSE then left them as the freemasonry leadership had routed all semblance of the Christian leadership, the OSMTH USA was started and more importantly without any ancient directives...they just made their own up or replaced them with the 1860ish York rite of freemasonry. They have done great stuff but the following site may guide you on one f their founders. www.scam.com...
The OSMTH USA or old OCCPT current leader is very high profile ex-military officer, however he has a personal site where it shows has been given a ethiopian title by a prince (on a date that is roughly 7 yrs afer the death of the prince in question). Out of the 2 main founders of the new trademarked OSMTH (1997) a false archbishop and a dodgy bought title speak volumes. In the ex-miltary man's defence his fake archbishop and 2 IC also ran a scam selling dodgy titles for years....However he still keeps the site with the dodgy coat of arms up. www.jamesjcarey.us... Title issued in Sept 2005 but the granting Prince died in Jan 1997. findarticles.com...
It is true the title OSMTH has been used prior to that date but not by this type of neo-order group...the original Portugese users just never thought to trademark the title and it was trademarked by the USA led schism in 97.
I hope this clears any misunderstandings.