there are several problems with this thread fist off we have so many children that arent being taken care of.. 2. there are people that want to take care of some of these kids /provideing they adhere to wahts considered to be norm, no matter what kind of pain they went through/kind of mental tourture they had to endure, i'm sorry but there are plenty of potential parents that would be very good for parenting, but there is a code that dictates what a good parent is and has caused all kinds of hassels for all involved, with the child being held in the least respect, thats why the ideal for adoption is for a new born and the older the child the more difficult it becomes to be adopted.. . and lets not forget. that adoption was a money scheme for the state.. as is most everything is nowadays with any state.. dont think so? look into it the evidence is there all u have to do is open u'r eyes.. u have the christian network trying to get people to help with kids from other countries but wont do a thing for kids who need help here. and if they do, that child is made to feel inferior. and god forbid if the comunity accepts the responsiblity for the damage done to that child or for the actions of said child or when their rage from this causes them to rebell .. thier so fond of saying u reap what u sow but deny any thing that says they are responsible.. i have seen this hundreds of times and the scene is the same no matter what face they put on it.. there are many good homes that these kids can go to but due to dogma and social idiocy thousands of kids are left to deal with life on their own..and if they do present a front of a good home they r really putting these kids thru hell.. and before anyone complaines about my point of view. let me tell u that what i've said is based on REAL LIFE , experieance, so # the physcologist doctor spock and all that other crap most do only what will ease their own concience reguardless of the reality so lets save this for people who have a clue

So-called pro-lifers must realise that when a woman feels strongly enough about it they will always find a way to have an abortion. If abortion is illegal then women who require it resort to highly dangerous 'backyard' solutions.

Many women put in this situation are already disadvantaged by a lack of eduction, past abuse or coming from certain religous or ethnic backgrounds where an unmarried mother is outcast from her social network.

That's why politicians have made it legal, when aborition is illegal then desperate women have their lives put in danger by unsafe abortions.

Any-one who stands by and allows a depserate and vulnerable woman to butcher herself has blood on their hands.

Having said that, so-called pro-choicers often make light of abortion and diminish the unborn baby and refuse to allow it to be humanized. They make out like having an abortion is just a procedure, like having a rotten tooth out. They also have blood on their hands.

Abortion must be legal to protect certain vulnerable women, but it must be made clear that a foetus is still a potential human life, and is precious. Abortion is a horrible last resort for women in desperate circumances, not a way of sweeping mistakes under the carpet.

A women who has an abortion in any circumstances other than utter desperation has blood on her hands.

We also have an obligation to support mothers, and reach out to the vulnerable to minimise the number of women in that position.

Anyone who makes the choice harder by refusing support to single mothers or pressures a woman into aborting her baby because they think it's inconvenient or will bring dishonour to the family has blood on their hands.

Ideally, abortion should be a legal service that very few people require. Every policy decision concering abortion should be made with this end in mind.

Targeting politicians is just a way for the vocal minority to push their point of view, but this doesn't excuse dimishing the importance of a foetus.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
To put the thread back on track and to not rehash the meanings of life, and where it begins but rather, reclarify and state Governments inability to legislate morality in a matter such as this.

But the fact is it DOES matter when we assign the beginning of life. You are calling abortion "killing," implying murder. You are calling a fetus a "child." And so we cannot answer the question of murder until we establish that it IS murder. If it is not murder, the question is moot.

If the question was "How do we reduce unwanted pregnancies, a large portion of which result in abortion?" then I would agree that the establishment of the point at which it is murder is irrelevant. But you are asking specifically about who is to be considered the "killer" (murderer).

While I reserve my right as a man to my right to free will and choice as I have spoken here, I also support another persons right to do so. But, in the situation of abortion, when on man possibly infringes on another living beings life or right to live, then I have to take a look at the bigger picture.

The key word is "possibly." And it points directly to the need to establish whether we are talking the equivalent of an animal or a human.

The abortion, and the steps leading up to that point are after the fact. The bigger issue is how to reduce the number of incidents that mature to that point. Abortion aside, I think we can all agree that not having to be put in the position at all is a more desired state.

While I agree that once a pregnancy occurs, it is moot to how to reduce unwanted pregnancies, it is NOT moot to the question of who is the "killer" should the pregnancy be aborted.

So... First we must establish whether it is murder or not in order to establish whether one needs an answer the question posed in the title of this thread.

I have made my position clear and cite a number of religious doctrines to support it. I am not religious, but needing some specific point to define the issue, I turned to the words presumed to be from "God" and find that, over and again, the answer is right there before us.

It works for me.

Originally posted by Amaterasu


So it was decided that it was the woman's choice and safe, clean, proper methods were made available.

All you would accomplish is pushing abortions back underground.

And then you would have on YOUR head all the misery that black market abortions produce.

Its about education. Sure there will be those that are scumbags that will use a coat hanger but it will be taken from the mainstream and there will not be so much wholesale slaughter.

It is not a womans choice when another life is inside of her. It IS a womans choice to NOT get pregnant. I am not talking about extraordinary circumstances like rape, a physical problem or an extremely deformed fetus.

Abortion is becoming to convenient like all other things in the brave new Mcworld. A life is a life and when you have one inside you it is NOT your choice anymore!

Originally posted by Cowgirlstraitup7

It's not really about morals I suppose, ,maybe it's more about humanity, but in reality, if you see a being inside of your body on a sonogram, with a heartbeat, what kind of person must you be to say, yeah sure go ahead and suck it out of me with a vacumm and send it down the sink drain?

Yeah no kidding I could never figure out what kind of cold fish could do that. Its the sheep that follow the crowd and convince themselves its the right thing to do because others are doing it and its legal.

Its the womans choice so my answer to the OP would be.

The woman making the choice is the murderer.

Originally posted by ElusiveGoddess
So-called pro-lifers must realise that when a woman feels strongly enough about it they will always find a way to have an abortion. If abortion is illegal then women who require it resort to highly dangerous 'backyard' solutions.

I really don't think anyone "requires" an abortion. If they do it doesn't tend to come in the first trimester.

Additionally, shooting heroin is illegal as well, so people do stupid things there as well, sometimes causing death. Do you really feel bad for someone who does something stupid (normally for personal reasons alone) and they die because of it? It's their fault, no one elses.

Many women put in this situation are already disadvantaged by a lack of eduction, past abuse or coming from certain religous or ethnic backgrounds where an unmarried mother is outcast from her social network.

I prefer to say "women who got themselves into this situation" because more often than not that's the situation. None of the reasons you provided above are really any excuse. Removing personal responsibility from people is a poor way to go about things and a very poor reason to allow bad behavor.

That's why politicians have made it legal, when aborition is illegal then desperate women have their lives put in danger by unsafe abortions.

Any-one who stands by and allows a depserate and vulnerable woman to butcher herself has blood on their hands.

Aw, poor poor women. What would they do without us big strong men. I'm surprised they can hold jobs and go without a bib...lol

Women are tough, strong, smart, and I'd say more mentally stable than men generally. Honestly, abortion is really more selfish than anything else. Compounding bad choices is bad policy in my estimation.

Having said that, so-called pro-choicers often make light of abortion and diminish the unborn baby and refuse to allow it to be humanized. They make out like having an abortion is just a procedure, like having a rotten tooth out. They also have blood on their hands.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they have "blood on their hands". That's a little rough and unfair. While I agree that they unduly dehumanize the situation, I do not think supporters are culpable by any means.

Abortion must be legal to protect certain vulnerable women, but it must be made clear that a foetus is still a potential human life, and is precious. Abortion is a horrible last resort for women in desperate circumances, not a way of sweeping mistakes under the carpet.

I really don't get this. Are you saying we should keep it legal for the most weak among us because they are too pathetic to be mature or reasonable, but to everyone else let them know how important life is? Honest question cause that's the way it seems.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by Amaterasu


So it was decided that it was the woman's choice and safe, clean, proper methods were made available.

All you would accomplish is pushing abortions back underground.

And then you would have on YOUR head all the misery that black market abortions produce.

Its about education. Sure there will be those that are scumbags that will use a coat hanger but it will be taken from the mainstream and there will not be so much wholesale slaughter.

I disagree. You may reduce the number of successful abortions at the price of damning the soul you forced into a first breath to neglect and abuse, which in turn adds many more twisted souls in a world already straining from souls upon its surface. (Though sociopathy and psychopathy are not a guarantee in ones who are neglected and abused, virtually all those who suffer from these came from a neglected or abused childhood. By forcing souls to endure this, you do society no favors whatsoever.)

It is not a womans choice when another life is inside of her.

If she was pregnant with a kitten, would you still say she has no choice? First determine that what is in her is human, I say. And the God of the Bible say not. So do many other Gods. So... How do you say that God(s) is wrong?

It IS a womans choice to NOT get pregnant. I am not talking about extraordinary circumstances like rape, a physical problem or an extremely deformed fetus.

Why not? Isn't it human life regardless? (I mean if we are to ignore God and presume it has a soul before first breath...)

And you make it sound so simple - like women and men (who are equally responsible!!!) never get caught in the passion of the moment and lose perspective...

Abortion is becoming to convenient like all other things in the brave new Mcworld. A life is a life and when you have one inside you it is NOT your choice anymore!

But we haven't decided it is a HUMAN life we are talking about. And if it is not HUMAN, it dam' well IS your choice if it's in your body.

Let people have one abortion but only if they consent to being permanently sterilized and jailed for a period of time. This applies to both parents.

You won't have any repeat abortions and people will be more responsible in their sexual practices if there was some consequence to it.

Technically, a fetus is just an extension of the female, a parasite (REALLY BAD word for it, but it's the truth), if you will. Once it is cut from the umbilical cord (well, after giving birth), it can LIVE without direct need of a "host". That is when I consider it a human BEING, when it is separated (after birth) from it's mother.
I'm (obviously) pro-choice, not pro-fascism.

Flame away...

EDIT: Oh, and it would depend who is doing the abortion. Let's say a doctor is. The mother would be like the client of a hitman, and the doctor would be the hitman. Both would be charged with murder, if I'm not mistaken.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by flyindevil]

Originally posted by StefanO
Come on already!!!!!!!!! Why is America soooo far behind on some key subjects?

Abortion
Religion

and those are the main 2.

Could it be this country was founded by fundamentalists?

Your growing pains should be over by now. Snap out of it and join the rest of the world.

Gawd - I Love this Post.
____________________

It is not about abortion. It is about Individual Rights.

Viability of the fetus is based on Opinion and Belief. So keep your "baby's rights" to yourself - if that is what you personally believe.

For those who say it is murder - that is your own believe. Do not shove it down other people's throats.

I as an Individual DO NOT/WILL NOT - live my life or believe in accordance with anyone else.

You believe what you want - - just stay out of my life - - and my government for individual rights.

The whole problem with this issue as I see it is not even religion but religious fanaticisim.Very closely related to homosexuality by the way.Most of the problem is fed by con men like Hagee who look to the old testiment for causes to con people who are to lazy to read the bible,except the passages the con man sites.Hagee and those like him spew hatred for thier own purposes(send money)Yet all his so called christian followers suck it in even tho Christ preached love not hate.I have never read in the bible where Christ said send money we need to get the Romans to pass laws against homosexuals.In fact Christ did nothing at all to try and sway the Roman Empire to pass any law.The fact is the only government Christ had any interest in at all was the kingdom government and that believe it or not does not include the government of the united states.If it were not for these fanatics abortion and homosexuality would be non issues which in my opinion is what they should be.I am not gay nor have I had an abortion so if there is a god why should I worry about what someone else does.He isn't going to hold me accountable for the actions of others.I believe the bible says do not judge that you may not be judged.In short the religious fanatics want to make this a big issue to line thier pockets with the money from sheep to lazy to figure it out for themselves.It is no ones problem but those directly involved.

Abortion RULES!

Without it, there would be soooo many unwanted children...you doubt me? Just look in Anytown, USA and you will see scores of unadopted/unwanted children just awaiting a nice life of poverty, illiteracy and crime. Leave a woman's right to choose up to the individual woman and quit trying to add another thing to the ridiculously enormous list of illegal activity in the FREE country!

I believe that when the day comes that orphanages are a thing of the past because all unwanted children are already adopted before birth, then we can readdress this issue, but until then, this legitimacy of this issue is DEAD and will remain so.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by no name needed]

Anyone that thinks abortion should be illegal should be adopting children.

Also, calling abortion selfish is one of the most ironic things I have ever heard. It is the exact opposite. A person takes on all the social stigmas and personal shame that has been created by other people's bull# to do what they think is right. Forcing a child to exist unwanted and unsupported because you are afraid of abortion is selfish.

Anyone that is willing to have an abortion SHOULD have an abortion because they shouldn't have a child in their possession if they don't want it.

Again, adoption is not a real option because it is simply not funded enough in the United States, and people don’t adopt enough. These kids grow up, and you know where a lot of them end up? Prison. So if you are against abortion you better be adopting some kids and giving some cash to orphanages.

Moral crusades are so easy to talk about, but abortion is often the most responsible decision in the world we live in.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

What would you do in this situation:

You have broken your pelvis, say, and go in for an x-ray at 6 months. Also, you have come down with bronchitis and are prescribed tetracycline.

Now x-rays are seriously bad for a developing fetus, and tetracycline is known to cause serious birth defects ala thalidomide.

Shortly after you have had your x-ray and are nearly done with your 10 day prescription of tetracycline, you are told you are 8 weeks pregnant.

What do you choose to do?

[edit on 8/3/2008 by Amaterasu]

I'm going to delurk for a second to answer this.
Bit of a backstory, I was on some pretty (albeit redundant now, been off since I found out about little one) heavy duty meds for a long time (11 years at the point of this story). I found out I was pregnant, I was then told due to all the meds my kiddo would have a hell of a lot wrong with her, I also tested high on one of the many blood tests I got during the pregnancy.

I was told all about her many, many issues, I was told all about what not only her life but mine would be like (not good, she wouldn't have been in pain but it would have been a struggle more so for me). It was quite a laundry list...

I was told to abort.

To be honest, you would have thought that doc was telling me to take a tylenol with the way he said that.

I'm happy to say, that the child with so many problems just turned one August 2.

The docs were all wrong, she's perfect. She's got nothing in the world wrong with her, although they told me otherwise.

I prepared myself for a very long time, researched ways to help her out. Thinking she's never walk. Thinking about the million horrible things, it was my fault she'd be born with.

Although, I am in no was saying that this would be the case 100% of the time. I did what I felt was "right". Although the legal system tells me it's a-ok to abort my child, I choose it to be my right to keep her.

My bio mom (yep I'm one of the "unwanted" kids) found out about me and came to the decision to give me a chance with another family. I had a heart defect to boot, at 4 months my parents adopted me. They had the choice to "pick another kid", again though- here I am.

I don't think that the system is perfect, it's honestly quote beyond repair.

Roe vs. Wade is a joke. The solution has a lot wrong with it.

The alternatives offered aren't much better. Lack of sex ed, teaching abstinence, and all that bs isn't really conductive with how people work.

Granted this is my real life answer to your question, I could easily go on...

Oh and I'm one of them atheists, liberal, feminists to boot. (I just thought that was worth a mention.) There are a million different reasons I've come to the conclusions I have about the whole debate. If I get the time, I'll provide more info. As for now, the one year old is raising a bit of heck(she just woke up..).

Ok.....at which period are you talking aobut having an abortion...because thats really the crux of the matter..not abortion itself...there should be a limit and there is one set that is in agreement(usually) by the scientific community...

Those who have sex, deny the child, and abort are responsible. The very act of sexual intercourse requires the risk of having a child. Why blame politicians or religious fanatics? Why not blame the vagina and penis? I'm sure putting blame on someone else's sexual nature has always suited others. But think about it! lol...all you people blaming government for abortions, blaming each other...and not the couples who did the mambo jumbo!

I blame the ones having unprotected sex. The fathers and mothers not being responsible. I blame them and only them nobody else. But then again I don't own anyone's vagina or penis lol

The question really is this. Why is it men who seem so militant about this issue. As a man I know it really is not my decision to pass judgement because I am responsible enough to use protection.

Yes accidents do happen and I do hope that in this situation the person I impregnated would tell me about this and ask my opinion. If she choes to have an abortion I would like to think that I could handle it and if she chose to have the child I will do what I am supposed to do and support my child. In the end however it is still her decision and not yours.

And as far as women who are raped or forced incest like that girl in Austria, it is definately none of your business what she chooses to do. It is bad enough that these women are forced to have intercourse but it is even worse having other people who have not had this happen to them demand that they carry to term something they never had a choice in in the first place.