Seeking Shamans

reply to post by Anti-Tyrant

I do not consider what i said before to have been flippant, carslake.

Neither do I Anti-Tyrant, if you think I'm being insincere then your wrong.

Your statement 'Reality just is' takes alot of insight to see nevermind the time spent knowing it like you know yourself. It's such a fundamental truth, preconception and fear are removed, no limits, free thinking, insight... shamanism.

Just like Shamanism, there are a great multitude of different beliefs and practices on this planet, and i find merit in all.

So do I, I also like to put them down for whats crap about them.

It may well be the case, after all, that such beliefs are merely a more advanced/diversified form of shamanism, one that gives others the ability to experience the inspirational genius of the self-realised mind if they're lucky.

Shamanism may have arose when the first human began to think about what would happen if he struck two specific rocks together (creative destruction.), but there are a number of different faiths i feel hold equal merit, if not more, with shamanism.

Some are born with it some are switched on it's good we have many ways to develop spiritually. Unfortunately some of the faiths like to send you to hell or reincarnate you as an insect if you don't do as they say.

Taoism and Buddhism for example, provided me with a very particular tool i needed to appropiately grasp Shamanism, so it may be the case that one could argue that i follow that particular 'ism' while gaining a greater understanding of the Variety that shamanism has to offer.

Taoism for me gave me a different position/angle to view the insights I found.

It would be worth pursuing a greater understanding of many faiths rather than one, as i find it adds character and perhaps even gives the individual a greater sense of cultural differences in the way people follow their faith.

It would be difficult to appreciate the true value of other religions, if i focused my spiritual being along one path with a great many forks...

Is that learning the same lesson in many ways, either way that approach will be great for your spiritual growth I'm sure.

Originally posted by Scurvy
reply to post by scientist

 

Thank you so much for that link!!! I had no idea those tours existed. I'm definitely going to be taking that trip within the next year.

Glad to help! There are lots of workshops in Peru - the most popular take place in Cusco and in the Amazon. For both you are asked to fast for a day or two beforehand. I have been looking for another link for a group that does the Amazon and Cusco workshops... I'll post it if/when I find it again.

I met a young shaman while I was in Cusco, exploring the ruins of saqsaywaman - he told me that most of the shamans in the area actually use San Pedro more, however it was also considered more sacred than ayahuasca, so typically off-limits to tourists and etc. Not sure how much of that I believed, but that's what I was told.

heres the other link: check the itinerary:

www.spirit-medicine.com...

Originally posted by carslake
So do I, I also like to put them down for whats crap about them.

Thats one of the more unpopular aspects of truth telling. Which is why an image of a "shaman" being highly thought of by their group is kinda wishful thinking. Generally speaking, as I am sure many of you must know, "what is" is often in discord with "what the majority wishes or believes is." Not always, of course, but frequently. I think the image of someone who kind of sits on the fringe of their group, and during the prosperous times is generally ignored by most, but during dangerous times is sought or listened to (or blamed and killed) is a more accurate image of what a "shaman" or mystic would look like.

Originally posted by carslake
Some are born with it some are switched on it's good we have many ways to develop spiritually.

I agree. Born or switched on, or even both. (Born with the inclination, then ignoring or repressing it to try and fit in better, then having it suddenly switch on with a vengeance, for instance)

Originally posted by carslake
Taoism for me gave me a different position/angle to view the insights I found.

I have noticed the same thing. I read the spiritual texts to hear nuance, and differing positions/angles of the insights, but not to get the insight itself. That always seems to arise or become apparent inside first. Sometimes unbidden, suddenly, but often a question begins the process that ends in insight. I find some of the texts useful in helping to frame new questions. I also read them to give myself more word choices to explain a concept to another if I am asked. More imagery to use. The "thing in itself" is impossible to put into words cleanly, without error, and having a larger arsenal of imagery and words and concepts from various cultures makes it a bit more likely that I can communicate that concept to another. Though I have found that even then, more often than not the word(s) is/are grabbed, not the underlying concept. People tend to look at the finger, not the moon.

Plato said;

classics.mit.edu...

I did not, however, give a complete exposition, nor did Dionysios ask for one. For he professed to know many, and those the most important, points, and to have a sufficient hold of them through instruction given by others. I hear also that he has since written about what he heard from me, composing what professes to be his own handbook, very different, so he says, from the doctrines which he heard from me; but of its contents I know nothing; I know indeed that others have written on the same subjects; but who they are, is more than they know themselves. Thus much at least, I can say about all writers, past or future, who say they know the things to which I devote myself, whether by hearing the teaching of me or of others, or by their own discoveries-that according to my view it is not possible for them to have any real skill in the matter.

If you read the letter in full, buried in it, (around the middle) is a very good analysis of why words do not suffice to convey. Plato was an incredibly intelligent man who just happened to be a "mystic" or "shaman" (though he isnt thought of as that by most moderns) and he considered very carefully the language problem. Perhaps thats why so many inclined towards both writing and "the things to which he devoted himself" express this in poetry, or harmless tales, rather than direct exposition.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I enjoy reading your posts, I must say you've definitely contributed a different sort of insight into this thread that is much appreciated.

The concept of not seeking anything is something I've never considered. While I'm always trying to visualize I never "step back" and let the visualizations come to me, I'm always thinking why am I seeing this? When I'm meditating on my thoughts I'm always trying to find the significance or questioning where the thoughts derived from instead of just reflecting on what is presented.

reply to post by scientist


Have you done any of these tours yourself? I read both sites and both seem very appealing, although the Blue Morpho tour seems to me to be a little more isolated and less touristy, I'm going to looking at whatever other tours I can find over the following couple of days before I make any kind of decision but just looking to see if you had any recommendations.

Can anyone explain to me a method by which one can communicate with nature in the ordinary reality? I've been trying to express to animals feelings of comfort in the hopes of having them not fear me and approach me. Just a little thing I've been playing with. Anyone have experience with this?

Originally posted by Scurvy
reply to post by scientist

 

Have you done any of these tours yourself?

none of the workshops i'm posting, as when I went to Peru I was on a strict schedule and could not attend one of these week-long trips. I did take part in a single day experience though, and it was extremely meaningful.

Here's another awesome link on Peruvian shamans by National Geographic:

www.nationalgeographic.com...

Thanks scientist, that was a good read.

So last night I had a strange experience. I was drinking some beers at a local bar and I was talking to a Native American woman who was disabled and in a wheelchair. Her brother approached me afterwards, he expressed his thanks to me and a friend for making his sister's night. I sat down with this man and during the conversation he mentioned that he was of Dene heritage. I know a little about their culture so we started talking about it, I asked him if he knew any wise men/medicine men personally. His response to me was a slight smile and he said "My father was. He passed it on to me." I was blown away. What a coincidence that this happened so shortly after starting this thread and speaking with all of you. He gave me a couple of gifts saying he trusted me and liked my energy. He gave me a bracelet and told me, "This bracelet means a lot to me. My father gave it to me before he passed away. When he gave it to me he said that I would give it to someone one day. You are that someone." He blessed it and also gave me a couple other gifts I can't mention. In return I gave him a small bag of agate and meditation stones I keep with me all the time. The stones helped me in a lot of hard times in my life. He took the stones from me and said he was going to throw them away because there was so much negative energy channeled into them but thanked me for giving him something that was equally as meaningful to me as the bracelet was to him. He meant no offense in throwing them away and explained that to me. I'm still in awe that this happened to me.

My friends call me a Shaman but I don't think I am. I think any attept to be a shaman would have the reverse results.

Originally posted by Scurvy
Thanks scientist, that was a good read.

So last night I had a strange experience. I was drinking some beers at a local bar and I was talking to a Native American woman who was disabled and in a wheelchair. Her brother approached me afterwards, he expressed his thanks to me and a friend for making his sister's night. I sat down with this man and during the conversation he mentioned that he was of Dene heritage. I know a little about their culture so we started talking about it, I asked him if he knew any wise men/medicine men personally. His response to me was a slight smile and he said "My father was. He passed it on to me." I was blown away. What a coincidence that this happened so shortly after starting this thread and speaking with all of you. He gave me a couple of gifts saying he trusted me and liked my energy. He gave me a bracelet and told me, "This bracelet means a lot to me. My father gave it to me before he passed away. When he gave it to me he said that I would give it to someone one day. You are that someone." He blessed it and also gave me a couple other gifts I can't mention. In return I gave him a small bag of agate and meditation stones I keep with me all the time. The stones helped me in a lot of hard times in my life. He took the stones from me and said he was going to throw them away because there was so much negative energy channeled into them but thanked me for giving him something that was equally as meaningful to me as the bracelet was to him. He meant no offense in throwing them away and explained that to me. I'm still in awe that this happened to me.

I have had a few similar experiences. A deaf-mute native american spoke to me more deeply than any human has ever communicated and he did it without words and only a few hand gestures. He showed me how to tell when a woman was acutally a man. Now I am a great transvestite spotter.

Originally posted by Scurvy
I know a little about their culture so we started talking about it, I asked him if he knew any wise men/medicine men personally. His response to me was a slight smile and he said "My father was. He passed it on to me." I was blown away.

What I would expect you to find, once you open to the possibility, is that there are "shamans" everywhere. Once you stop looking for a specific "thing." If for instance, and I am not saying you expect this specific vision, someone expects a shaman to wear antlers on their head, and dress in skins, they can look and look and all they will find are actors/charlatans, representing the image of shaman to the world.

If instead, you ask, "show me those who are able to see and hear, who are wise and have something for me," and you leave off the expectation what that will look like, where you will find it, and what will be shown to you, you will find your path littered with shamans and messages. Why? Because you will be looking for the divine in everyone, not dismissing those who do not fit the preconceived notion. Sometimes someone you have known for a long time, will suddenly turn to you and look you square in the eye and tell you something profound, that relates to a question you are holding. The Divine can arise anywhere, anytime, it can use any medium to give you your answer. Any person, any object. The key is not finding some "special someone," but learning to see "all things as special."

reply to post by Scurvy


This post actually relates to the last one, but I am posting separately for clarity.

You asked how to communicate with animals, to draw them to you.

This requires an understanding of a fundamental law, "takers" repel, "givers" draw. Bear with me, this is a bit convoluted, and not immediately obvious.

I am going to create a scenario based on your question and I am going to tear it down to its core. Someone is in the woods, watching animals. They want to learn to communicate with animals, they want the animals to come to them. Listen to the underlying energy of that. "I want something from you." Underlying that is the intent to take from the thing, the creature, and enhance oneself. "Now I am special, I can speak to the animals and get them to do my bidding." It may not arise in your mind that way, but feel rather than think, the energy of "I want from you." "I want you to behave differently than you currently are. I want you to love me. I want you to do this that or the other." The energy is that of rejection. "What you are, how you currently feel, and what you are currently doing is not enough."

Now, that same person is in the woods. They sit for a minute, and breath in, conscious of their own breath and center themselves. They begin to notice the air, how it smells, the wind, how it feel, the trees, how their limbs and leaves sing in the breeze. They see the sun, and how it makes patterns of light and shadow, that dances, sparkles. They feel the warmth of it. They watch the birds and the squirrels, and they see them running around, doing bird and squirrel things. This person settles into seeing them, appreciating them for what they are and what they are currently doing. They look in their little eyes and they see their intelligence, their life, their spark. They lose themselves in the wonder, in the amazement, of the creature itself. They notice that this movement or that indicates, caution, or fear, or curiosity. Rather than trying to change fear into affection, they accept that the little thing is afraid, and they send it a soothing thought or sound. Not to draw it to them, to take, but to give it comfort regardless what choice the creature makes afterwards. Give it a smile, a laugh, give it acceptance as it is, give it a treat if you have one for it, or give it space if you have no "thing" it wants. Love it in other words. All things love a lover.

Underlying all of this has to be the energy of giving, of accepting, or loving, not merely the quid pro quo pretense of love that we are so familiar with. Not, "I will pretend to love you so that I get what I want" but a genuine letting go of expectation that anything will return to you, and loving for the sake of love itself. "I love/accept you no matter what you do for me, or give me, or feel about me."

Acceptance=Love. Desire=Rejection. "I love you as you are, unconditionally, for your own sake," is a gift. "I want you to love me, to behave as I wish," is a rejection of what is and a demand for MORE. What is is not good enough.

Acceptance and Love and giving draws. Desire and rejection and taking repels. It is the same no matter what is being considered. Be it wisdom, people, animals, whatever.

Edit to correct spelling.

[edit on 30-7-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

I always love to try and communicate with nature... Subtle things are just fantastic. I had the same deer approach me two different times, and let me feed him; within arms distance.

Scruvy himself had a squirrel look at him, and jump on and then off of his leg in one jump; then just stared back at him.. haha ^_^.

Recently I've noticed much more going on behind my eyes. It's a fascinating time; and I plan on taking trips out on my free time just out of town to a small nature area for regular meditations; involved with nature.

We shall see what happens.

Originally posted by Karlhungis
I would love to find a "true" shaman someday. That would be an adventure of a lifetime. Sadly though, in this day and age I am having my doubts as to whether or not it would even be possible to find one.

until you meet me, that is.

Originally posted by GrimTroll
I always love to try and communicate with nature... Subtle things are just fantastic. I had the same deer approach me two different times, and let me feed him; within arms distance.

Scruvy himself had a squirrel look at him, and jump on and then off of his leg in one jump; then just stared back at him.. haha ^_^.

Recently I've noticed much more going on behind my eyes. It's a fascinating time; and I plan on taking trips out on my free time just out of town to a small nature area for regular meditations; involved with nature.

We shall see what happens.

I absolutely love nature, its nature I talk to and comfort with. Sometimes I ask the tree's to wave with their branches without wind been there, rain to pour without a forecast of rain OR I ask a wild animal to communicate with me telepathically were the commucate with a physical commucation. I would like to video this, I am going to get a tape for my video camrea and then see what people think. How do i go about it as it 2 prove it?. I am just an everyday type of English young lad who no one would even endeavour that would have this natural ancient sense.

I believe in nature.


spell checked

[edit on 30-7-2008 by deathpoet69]

Originally posted by Scurvy
Thanks scientist, that was a good read.

So last night I had a strange experience. ........ Her brother approached me afterwards, he expressed his thanks to me and a friend for making his sister's night. I sat down with this man and during the conversation he mentioned that he was of Dene heritage.

The Dene speak Athabascan dialects...the language group is shared by Apache, Navajo....in Oklahoma, New Mexico, California....some of the California tribes are now gone altogether.

Very nice experience.

reply to post by earthman4


HAHA that's the best skill I've ever heard of. I know what you mean when you say the experience is profound when you speak with someone wise though. Out of curiosity, how does one spot a transvestite?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Thank you for that. I understand what you're sharing with me. I'm actually regretting the choice of this thread title after reading your posts. Like I posted before I really enjoy your insight, I would personally call you a shaman, whether you like the title or not .

I think what I'm trying to find in my life is the answer (I just realized that answer is a really messed up word, both in the way it's written and its connotations) I'm realizing more every day that there are no answers.

Well I was halfway between the two mindsets you described. I WANTED the squirrel to approach me, I didn't have any intentions behind it though. I was projecting thoughts of "come to me" rather than just "hello", if that makes any sense.

reply to post by Scurvy


It does make sense. There are degrees in everything, shades of gray more than black and white. Often, when we first think we are giving, but not getting the expected result, if we look more closely at ourselves, we can find subterfuge. A deeper underlying "want" that is thwarting us, muddying the waters.

Even wanting not to want, is a want, isnt it? It is a habit that runs deep, and the only "remedy" for it is to just see it, in yourself, in others, and just accept it as what is at that moment. Miracles can happen there.

Which is why "knowing thyself" is so fundamentally important. You cannot accept what you cannot (or refuse or deny) see. That drawing, loving energy has a way of changing things without "willing" it so. It is almost like sunshine, things move towards it of their own volition, without the need to coerce.

BTW, I think the title of your post was quite nice, and I enjoy your posts as well. It brought all sorts of people to the thread that had many things of worth to say, so it accomplished its goal. As for myself being a shaman, I think that it is truer to say we all are. My own feeling is that we all possess the potential, it is just a matter of when it will break through, and to what degree we will be able to cooperate with the process rather than try to control it. Fear causes us to try to control, to label, or to "know" in a possessive way and it constricts the channel, allegorically speaking. Fear that we wont "get it," it will pass us by, that we need someone to tell us how, that ultimately we are inadequate for the task.

Trust, or bravery, is what is required to let go enough to really open the gates. Trust in your Self, in the process, in what is around you, in your ability to make sense of it all without needing to lock it all down nice and tight with the intellect. Trust that you are right where you need to be, in the perfect circumstances, with the perfect companions, and that everything is just what it should be, all you need is the eyes to see it and the ears to hear it.