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Court says 'gay' rights trump Christian rights

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posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:30 AM
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reply to post by Griff
 


Hey, I have always had great respect for you and your posts. Your honesty is impressive. I didn't mean to upset you like that. I said before I shouldn't have used the word "precious". Please forgive me. I have no desire to fight with you or anyone else, though I can easily defend myself against just about anyone.

No, I won't be voting for "Four leaf clover McCain." I'm a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, and I don't believe in the WOT. All things considered, I will probably end up voting for Obama or writing in Paul.

You are not an abomination to me. No one is. All sin is an abomination to God. My sin, your sin, everybody's sin. He cannot look upon us unless we are covered in the blood of the Lamb without blemish, saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It isn't that I have stopped sinning, obviously. I have a different perspective on sin now. I am convicted of it, I confess it, and I seek to overcome it. I am not focused on the faults of others, but my own.

The holier than thou schtick makes me sick. It isn't confined just to Christianity, either. That is one of the points I am trying to make here. People who use it generally have major unresolved issues of their own they are projecting. My ex used to use it on me all the time. She used to accuse me of being a closet gay, too. Though I'm not, I like good people, all different kinds of good people, just the way they are.

I don't know what else to say. I think I will stop here for now.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Icarus Rising]




posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by re22666
 







Small Samples Lead To Big Mistakes.



In attempting to predict criminality by the shapes of the skulls and other physical features of criminals, he had in effect created a new pseudoscience of forensic phrenology and craniometry. While Lombroso was a pioneer of scientific criminology, and his work was one of the bases of the eugenics movement in the early twentieth century, his work is no longer considered one of the foundations of contemporary criminology.
en.wikipedia.org...


I concur Mr R2, that homosexuality is genetic. I have homosexuals in my close family and I have associated with homosexual people all my life. I'm convinced sexual orientation is primarily genetic but as in most primates, occasional preference deviation is not unexpected nor inconsistent with basic orientation.

[edit on 7/20/2008 by donwhite]


ok so are you agreeing with me or posting an article that is supposed to counter me?



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
I'm a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, and I don't believe in the WOT. All things considered, I will probably end up voting for Obama or writing in Paul.


Always good to know when you agree on something



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Yes, it is much better to live in the promise of shared agreement than the curse of conflict. I want to apologize to you for getting snippy in some of my responses to you in this thread. I let my feelings get hurt when you said "you should have noticed the cross" in my avatar over in the S&M Barbie thread, and that has affected some of my dialogue with you here. I gave those feelings up to the Lord this morning, and humbly ask your forgiveness.

You mentioned you had been to a festival in Long Beach. Was that Long Beach, CA? Member resistor's mention of going to a dive for a beer to get a better perspective reminded me of when I lived in Long Beach back in '91. There was a bar called the Speakeasy on 5th and Cherry I used to go into once in a while after work in the afternoon for a draft and a pickled egg or two. Thought nothing of it. The place was mellow. I had a friend visiting one evening and he wanted to go over there for a beer. Turned out the place had an entirely different "flavor" after dark. It didn't bother me, but my friend was pretty freaked out and wanted to get the heck out of there in a hurry. Funny, I hadn't thought of it in ages.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by Annee
 

I let my feelings get hurt when you said "you should have noticed the cross" in my avatar


I was raised Christian. I know there are good people who are Christian. I know there are those who truly get it and "walk in His footsteps".

They are a powerful group that could focus their message on positive. Yet TODAY's "Christian Machine" focuses their message on Hate - Judgment - Fear - and Control.

If you believe God created man - then he also created homosexuals. Maybe tolerance - love - and acceptance would be a better way to go. Even if you don't fully understand.

IMO - Christianity is killing itself by the direction it has chosen to go. I get such a negative reaction now when I see a cross - I have trouble keeping my own energy positive.

I know that is not how you see it. But that is how I see it and many others do too. I know many Christians who are now looking for alternatives because of the Hate. (and yes I realize the twist "it is not about hate" - but it is).

Sorry for going off topic.

Yes that is Long Beach CA.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by ThePiemaker
 


Very well said and a star for you.

Essentially Christians and members of any other religion have no other right than to practice freely... rights belong to individuals, not amorphic groups. So to claim that gays are somehow infringing on Christians rights is nothing but a big fat stinking pile of bullhooey.

If they really followers of Jesus they would stop worrying about what someone else does in bed and start trying to make the world a more just and humane place.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Oh, but I do feel that way. Are you familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tares? Basically, Christ says the church will be full of weeds when he comes and they will be pulled up and burned before the real harvest is taken into the storehouse of heaven.

He also said:



Matthew 7

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The church doesn't have a corner on righteousness. I think its ok to lose faith in the church, just don't lose faith in Christ. I prefer to work for change from within the system.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 11:44 AM
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Icarus Rising - you and every one else totally lose me when you go to the Bible. It is the biggest turn off I can think of. I believe there is Truth in the Bible - I do not believe the Bible is Truth.

Do NOT quote Bible verses to me. That is YOUR belief. If you have something to say - say it from your own intelligence.

You are gonna have to start another discussion thread. This is off topic.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Not so far off topic. It goes to what I consider the mistaken motivations of the Philly 11.

I am sorry the Bible is such a stumblingblock for you. The stone the builders rejected.....

My God given intelligence is what has led me to the truth that is the Bible. Anyway, I will try to paraphrase in my own words in my posts to you from now on.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Regardless of the fact what the preacher in your irrelevant example was doing was wrong, the arrest and felony charges against the Philly 11, "for their own protection" amounts to bias and a civil rights violation.


If every law was based off of one man's opinion, there would be anarchy. Fortunately in this case, that's not so. Oh, and my irrelevant example was trying to give you perspective outside of your box.




You had your mind made up about this situation from the moment you saw it was a Christian protest of a gay pride event. That's bias, as well.


Do you always try to play God and read people's minds? My mind was not made up until I read the story. Oh, and as far as screaming bias out against everyone else in this thread, I suggest you take a look within first.



Fascism masquerading under the guise of Christianity is still fascism, not Christianity.


It is Fascism, under Christianity, therefore , it is one and the same while it is happening in that case.


You have no legitimate cause to picket my house.


Oh I do. You are holding court here calling everyone delusional and biased that doesn't agree with your own biased standpoint!
Come on now, already.

What it all comes down to...


Calling ConWeb unbiased is ludicrous. They clearly have an agenda to counter conservative portals. That is bias. The OutFest organizers own website was less biased than ConWeb.


Your debates have become pointless. You call people delusional and biased because they are not accepting your biased source and trying to find different ones. If those sources don't agree with your one biased source you immediately cry foul that those sites are biased. Then when someone points out that your source is biased you revert back to everyone else being delusional and biased.


Originally posted by Grover:

If they really followers of Jesus they would stop worrying about what someone else does in bed and start trying to make the world a more just and humane place.


Amen.
That's what it is all supposed to be about and while not applicable to this group as they are obviously choosing not to, you would hope they would aspire to something better than what they have.

---

I am curious to know Icarus Rising, if I went to a Christian get together in a public place, and had a placard saying "Hail Satan, Repent Sheep of Jesus" and was chanting in a megaphone that everyone needed to learn to worry about themselves and stop worrying about everyone else while chanting "hail satan, 666 is the number of the true king," would you defend my rights wholeheartedly if the police arrested me for causing a disturbance?

Freedom of speech and all.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by niteboy82
 




I am curious to know Icarus Rising, if I went to a Christian get together in a public place, and had a placard saying "Hail Satan, Repent Sheep of Jesus" and was chanting in a megaphone that everyone needed to learn to worry about themselves and stop worrying about everyone else while chanting "hail satan, 666 is the number of the true king," would you defend my rights wholeheartedly if the police arrested me for causing a disturbance?

Freedom of speech and all.


Yes, of course I would. This is not a Christian vs. gay issue, it is a free speech issue.

I hate hypothetical rhetoric like this, though. But since you started it, I will say you would probably be treated a lot better by the Christians you were trying to sodomize with satan than the Philly 11 were by the participants in OutFest. There probably wouldn't be a militant reaction or a complaint, and you probably wouldn't even get arrested. They would probably ask if they could gather around you and pray for Jesus to come into your heart and save your immortal soul from eternal damnation. They'd sing something like,

Since Jesus came into my heart, Since Jesus came into my heart, floods of joy o'er my soul like the sea billows roll, since Jesus came into my heart!

They'd love up on you with the pure, sweet love of God, and pray over you with a fervor you've never seen before even in your wildest, sweat soaked orgyastic orgasmic moments, ask Jesus to anoint you with His Holy Spirit and forgive your sins and make you new again. Praise God! You might just get saved.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by niteboy82
 


I have asked him the same question 3 different times in 3 different ways. Every time its "irrelevant ""off topic" Or my favorite "I'm not out protesting"

Neither were they they were ASSEMBLING . Just like a marriage. A funeral . Ect. People coming together for a purpose special to them .
----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------

'These people would freak if every funeral/wedding was drown out with our (conflicting) beliefs.
It don't matter tho . Were the ones deflecting here . right? Cause we don't want to play the game YOUR way . And by YOUR rules.

We want EQUALITY FOR ALL . Who are these people the new VICE squad?


I hate hypothetical rhetoric like this,


What hypothetical situations where free speech is involved and on topic but just reversed? Hmmm wonder WHY you hate it so much .

[BTW if this were the way our hypothetical situations dictate . We would be in here defending the peaceful assemblers over the protesters. Protesting someones rights is hate speech not free speech.]

[edit on 22-7-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by d11_m_na_c05
 


Oh, but I have answered you, over and over and over again. You just don't like my answer, so you keep discounting it. Knock yourselves out, it won't change.

You have no right to picket my house. You may picket this thread all you want. This is where the event is taking place.

If you didn't notice, I posted the OutFest website's own press release on the incident. How's that for bias? I admit, I am biased. Not against gays, though. For God, the Constitution, free speech, fairness for all, you know, stuff like that. Claim your own rights while you deny me mine and see how far it gets you. I love you guys, I really do. I'm trying to correct the error of my own ways. You are on your own with yours.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by d11_m_na_c05
 




Protesting someones rights is hate speech not free speech.


Yes it is. I believe the Philly 11 were protesting the behavior of the OutFest attendees, not their right to it. Get the picture?



What hypothetical situations where free speech is involved and on topic but just reversed?


As nearly as I can make sense of this statement, I will try to answer it. The hypothetical situation that didn't and probably wouldn't occur, but is merely a construct with a foregone conclusion used by a closed mind to deliver a predetermined point that isn't open to discussion. That hypothetical situation. How am I supposed to discuss something that isn't open to discussion when it is presented?

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:26 PM
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You have no right to picket my house.

I dont hate this thread . I hate bigots. You are one . So i would like to know where i can protest in a way that it would disrupt your personal life . And exercise my free speech to tell you in person what i think of bigots.

I think you need to be saved from yourself. I'm actually thinking of calling the police cause you may even be in serious danger of rapture.


---------------------------------------------------------------
You guys are so nice . Yeah you would embrace the protesters .

Father Tries To Beat The 'Gayness' Out Of Own Son With Baseball Bat


Friday 18th July 2008
An Anderson, South Carolina man is being investigated for assault and potential hate crime charges after beating his son on two separate occasions following a pride parade on Sunday.
The 49-year-old man greeted his son in the street after the boy had returned from the Anderson pride parade, already in a fit of rage. He commenced striking his own son with a baseball bat while cursing, praying, and “casting the demon of homosexuality” out of his 18-year old. The boy—battered, and rightfully terrified by his father attempted to cast out his demon with a Louisville Slugger, ran away, and didn’t return home until Wednesday, when his father again struck him. Fortunately the second assault left both God and Major League Baseball out of the conversation, but was enough—to think that after the first assault the tipping point hadn’t already been reached shocks us—to cause the teen to seek out the help of the local Sheriff’s Office. His father has not been able to be contacted, and is still at large.


You guys would never ever ever do something like this eh?


Seems like a loving embrace of Jezus to me .
Yes i know its off topic . Its valid to show that your defending a group of hate filled Unfounded scared people .



[edit on 22-7-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by d11_m_na_c05
 


You are entitled to your opinions. In my opinion, you are a person full of hate, and I am just the current object of that hate. In that sense, you are the bigot.

I would never try to beat anything out of anyone.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


But see there in lies the problem . DON'T lump everyone together cause of a belief or cause they share . Everyone is different . Yeah there are some weird gay pedophiles out there that do sick things . But there are weird priest pedophiles out there doing the same crap .


This was a targeted attack on a certain group. Sure free speech should extend to them, Sure they should be able to set up there own "rally" to say there part . But to direct it at a peaceful gathering with the intent of drowning out the others free speech is wrong .

Free speech cannot be a defense against trying to take away a groups free speech .

BTW my posts are meant to be ironic . I'm just echoing your(their at times) stance from the other side. Its so great when people argue your points for you .

[edit on 22-7-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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What I don't get is how come we don't see more Christians picketing the war? I do see Quakers, but that's about it. I do understand the picketing of abortion clinics, although I don't agreee. It comes from a "Don't kill the baby" mentality, which even though I am pro-choice, I completely understand from a theological perspective the picketing of Abortion clicnics.


What I don't understand AT ALL, is the picketing of a movement of Lovers.

If these Christians would put so much energy into protesting something that kills and causes great suffering to innocents, as opposed to something that is all about love, then it would make much more sense.

These are nothing more than Homophobes disguised as Christians.


[edit on 22-7-2008 by Quazga]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by Annee
 

I am sorry the Bible is such a stumblingblock for you. The stone the builders rejected.....
n.


It is NOT a stumbling block. Don't think for me.

Would you like me to speak to you from the Book of Mormon? I doubt it.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


I am sighing and shaking my head.

What 'Christians' don't seem to understand is that they are acting on their beliefs, not on 'fact.' Belief is all fine and good. But let us not confuse belief with fact.

I fully believe if Jesus were to come to Earth today he would take one look at these sanctimonious, holier-than-thou pharisees and say, 'What part of 'Love thy God and love one another' do you not understand?'

Since when did it become some sort of moral duty for 'Christians' to be the moral watchdogs of the world?

Live and let live, people. That is the ONLY way we are going to survive on this planet.



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