The politics of self-responsibility

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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I dont think I can call it "proof" in a beyond a shadow of a doubt sort of way. It is a gut feeling that is backed up by really taking a good hard look at the policies that were not promised by the last several presidents, but the policies that they actually implemented.

I saw for instance, that while Clinton was very calming to a lot of us, and charming, and though the right wing seemed to despise him and we were distracted with the whole scandal thing, he really passed a lot of legislation that benefited the corporations and hurt us as a nation. He also wanted to get Saddam, though he never got the opportunity.

I also look at who the corporate owned mainstream media will NOT sell or give airtime to. I also watch carefully for differences in pre-campaign behavior and during campaign behavior. McCain for instance has appeared on tape several places talking about how awful the war is, now, it is a whole different story, I am sure he is NOT the republican party's first choice for candidate, they just know he is the one that the people will accept in large numbers. For whatever reason, the powers that be need the next president to bridge the political divide a little, which makes me concerned that they are going to try to pass some very important piece of legislation that we the people need to support to get through. They are really running two candidates with a broad cross party support.

There is a lot more to my personal analysis of the issue, including what the courts have been doing, what is going on in other trade unions, etc, and it is more than I feel able to convey clearly. A lot of it at this point is all the things I have researched, coupled with just an overwhelming feeling that this next president is going to really tear the heart out of our sovereignty, but that he needs broad support in order to do so without us rebelling. Much more support than Bush had.

Because the mainstream media is corporate owned, and thus has corporate interests at heart, I just strongly distrust the candidates the media endorses and loves.

That said, I do not want to, nor think I can convince you of my opinion. You asked a "why" kind of question, and thats my reasoning in a short form. I firmly think that every person HAS to vote their own conscience. I completely support your support of Obama. I hope that I am wrong to be perfectly honest, and I hope that you are right.

You're on the way to truth, dude. Keep on. And don't be shy.

reply to post by semperfortis

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You are not alone in your battle, not on ATS nor in the US nationwide. Far from it.

Most thinking people abhor the thought of socialism. It is the philosophy of stagnation, atrophy, and death.

reply to post by semperfortis

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Socialist policy is a destructive force, a mental illness. It weakens everyone by handing out fish for free rather than teaching fishing.

Right-wing policy also has its faults and some pretty barbarian "my prick is bigger than yours" attitude.

Just say no to politics. Change your avatar, turn your back to the Forum and practice total self-responsibility which equals total liberation.



[edit on 19-7-2008 by Skyfloating]

No, what I find disturbing is that people like you don't care about this injustice.


Being someone who has never had a problem with getting my "act" together and did so without ever relying on any social programs, I still think that the government should provide some kind of safety net for the unfortunate. Otherwise what is the point of having any government at all?


You still live in a country and it is the duty of it's citizen's to make sure your government follows the will of the people. You have just given up. You think your voice doesn't matter. That is exactly what the government wants you to think. Way to be independent.


You don't see a difference between "financial aid" and invading a country? I find it difficult to believe you don't know the difference, and you just simply don't want to do anything about it.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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No problems BH, I wasn't referring to you. You have done plenty to help out and have had to put up with more than your share of disrespectful members. I just feel very passionate about this for the reasons stated and sometimes get carried away. Take care.

You say that I dont care about this injustice. Thats a false assertion. But I take it into my own hands to the best of my ability without having to wait for some saviour to be voted. Just a few months ago I sent a friend of mine, who didnt know what to do with his life, some brochures regarding volunteering work in africa, outlining how he can make a difference. When choosing a business/profession I make sure that it serves the greater whole.

Its because of self-responsibility that I can take greater effect than those who make themselves weak and dependent.





I think you are not talking to me but you´re talking to what you think someone who doesnt vote republican or democrat must be like.

My voice does matter but I dont give it to the people you expect me to give it to.

reply to post by Skyfloating

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I think the one thing you are missing, at least with me is this:

I don't want to and should not have to struggle anymore...

I should be able to live comfortably on the fruits of my life-long struggles to get here; where I am now...

I did struggle, all through the late 70's, 80's and 90's... Two and at times three jobs.... Now finally under this President and the former house and senate, I was comfortable. I relaxed and worked one job, paid my bills and even invested a modest amount.

I would like to just stay comfortable, not have to struggle anymore. I have served mankind in the Marines and as a Public Servant sense 1980, I deserve to be able to enjoy what I have worked for...

The Socialists and Liberals will ensure that I can not...

Obama will put me back, working two jobs to support someone that wont work and wants to live off the government..

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis

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The sad fact is that all you have worked for will be placed in further jeopardy if Obama is elected. He wants to raise the Inheritance Tax to 55%!

Make sure you spend a few bucks and hire a lawyer to protect your kids in the form of a trust.

reply to post by semperfortis

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Dont worry, you´ll survive 4 years of it. The chances of Obama getting voted are in his favor because thats the usual 8-year/4-year cycle. I dont see McCain winning.

I know that Obama-types attempt to take away my hard-earned money, but Im not gonna let em I think Obama is more charismatic and energetic than McCain but I cant vote for him because of the reasons you state.

So that leaves me with Republicans. But since I dont believe in foreign intervention and war as a means to solve issues (I believe in everything being able to be solved with diplomacy)...

...who can I vote for who represents me and many other half-sane people

Just to clarify: Do you mean that having Obama or McCain in the White House is going to make no difference at all? That it doesn't matter which one is in there, our country is going to follow a preset path? Because if that's what you're saying, you could be completely right. I think you very well might be right. But, to me at least, this has not been conclusively proven.

Certainly, we have been lied to.
Certainly there is mass corruption in government.
Certainly, we have been through the most corrupt and dishonest, greedy and miserable presidency of our time and maybe all time.

And there are indications and evidence that what you say is true.

And yet, I am not convinced that the cycle won't be broken or at least slowed down and begun to turn around if Obama takes the presidency. Maybe it's false hope on my part. Maybe wishful thinking. Maybe I'm naive. But I don't think it's fair or right to judge ALL political leaders based on what George Bush and others have done.

And what is the effective alternative?

I don't think we can know what will happen until it happens. I don't think we can judge Obama as the same slime as Dick Cheney without proof. I can't. I won't. I believe he deserves a chance to prove to us if he's full of it or not. His platform is change. And if that's what we want (and I do) I think he deserves a chance to try to effect that change.

He could very well be worse than them all! He is a politician at the Senate level. He is a politician in Chicago. But can I, and should I, use that circumstantial evidence to make an open-and-shut judgment against him? I don't think so. I don't expect 100% honesty and integrity from him because I don't believe in the world we live in, that he could have made it to where he is without "playing the game". Ron Paul couldn't.

Ron Paul is our best chance of breaking the downward spiral, for sure, but the GOP would never permit him to lead their party OR become president. So, where do we find ourselves?

You know, people are going to do what they do, because, like you, they don't think we have a viable choice in the 2 parties. So they will either not vote, or vote for Ron Paul, who, even if he had the most votes, the GOP, by hook or by crook, would never permit him to be president, or some 3rd party or vote for themselves.

So, then what? Everyone on ATS, everyone who is "aware" either doesn't vote or throws their vote to someone else. Then, either Obama or McCain wins and life goes on.

I KNOW what you're saying about the Bi-partisan situation. But what do we do? What are you doing? How DO we get the country back? The way I see it is we either vote for the person we have the most faith in, and HOPE that he will do something good, or we protest by not voting or voting for someone who is not running.

What good does that do? What is the end result? John McCain wins the election for another 8 war-mongering years of Cheney/Rove?

A lot of people here shout about how we're being fooled by the political system (and it's likely true). Ok, then. What DO we do? Stop participating so we're not in their way? They would be thrilled if we all stayed home or wrote in Ron Paul. That way, our vote doesn't count to place someone in the position and they don't have to worry about us. So maybe it doesn't count anyway. But maybe it does.

What am I missing? I'm a smart person. Why am I not convinced, like the rest of you, that a vote for Obama is the same as voting for Bush, or Cheney or McCain? Is it because I still have hope? Is it because I believe in giving a person a chance to prove himself? Is it because I am naive?

Thanks for any input on this. I'm struggling with it.

I dare you all to vote for Queen Elizabeth II, out of protest. You might aswell, for all the good it would do you to vote for anyone else. The whole thing seems to me to be a pre-concocted stage-gibberish. And most people buy it up every single time.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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In my case, and of course I can only speak for myself, it's because I believe that the 'puppetmasters' have such a firm stranglehold on the entire political system that they would not have allowed Obama to get this far if he weren't one of the 'puppets' or willing to become one of the 'puppets.'

Look at Ron Paul. He may, as I've said before, in my opinion actually NOT be part of the 'system,' and he wasn't allowed to become a viable candidate.

In other words, I think that anyone who truly wants to fight the 'system' and bring real change will be squashed like a bug before they ever gain enough support to become a contender for any important political office. (I don't mean killed, just sidelined, discredited, discouraged, etc.)

Who are the 'puppetmasters'? I don't know. There are plenty of candidates to be considered on this very website, from Annunaki to Illuminati to Bilderbergers and Rothschilds. It does seem to me that, as a country, the US has deviated very little from a path towards less personal freedom, more government control, and more global control and interference for at least several decades now, regardless of who is supposedly at the figurative helm.

I don't know that much about Obama, but even if he was at one time a great and noble 'horse' vying for the political Triple Crown, I think he already knows by now that if he gets too far ahead of the pack or strays off the track, they'll figuratively break his legs and end his career.

Hey, where are we going again? And why are we in this handbasket??

Actually, no they wouldnt. They would be horrified if we all suddenly decided to stop choosing between the two choices they handed us and voted for a third unsupported by the "power that be" candidate. If we ALL wrote in Ron Paul, he would win, wouldnt he?

Voting outside the two party system IS the answer in this little mess, (if we wish to enact real change legally) and it ISN'T a worthless endeavor. What makes it worthless in some peoples eyes is that many of us, (myself included up until very recently) buy in to the whole idea that if you vote outside the two candidates the MSM chooses your vote is wasted.

I also hear a quite a bit of hoo hah about what the Republican party can and will do for people. How they represent the only real hope of people keeping what they have worked so hard for. They are just as "socialist" as the Democratic party is. The only difference is WHO lives off the government, (and the peoples) dime. The Republican party has not stood for smaller government in decades. They love a big government, and big government programs, as long as corporations are the ones getting the free ride, the welfare checks, and the bailouts for their bad business decisions.

I by no means am supporting the idea that the Democratic party as it stands today represents something much better. I just really dislike hearing propaganda touted as fact. Some of those "poor freeloaders" wouldnt be so poor and freeloading if wages were not being controlled so tightly by allowing illegal immigration to increase the supply of labor and moving jobs overseas to draw down demand for labor. A lot of those poor freeloaders work, they just work at jobs that pay such crappy wages they can never get ahead. I know there are those who think that that is their own problem for not getting a better education, but an education above high school is still a luxury item that a lot of the truly poor cannot afford, and not all people are suited for college. (including a fair number who ARE in college or president for that matter) One should be able to make a decent living in without a college degree, like many, many of our grandparents did. We still need manufactured goods.

Soon, someone will point out that Bush's plan to lower inheritance tax to zero is going to be undone by the next president. Which of course is ridiculous. The current structure that steps it down to zero in 2010 was never intended to be permanent. It was written as a step down, step back up rate with 2010 being the "bottom" or zero point. Why they need one year, and one year only with a 0% inheritance tax is something I wonder about. I would not be the least bit surprised if a plane full of billionaires with children living in foreign countries supposedly goes down in early 2010.





[edit on 20-7-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

See, I don't think so. Maybe if 100% of the voters wrote him in... But that's not going to happen. The vast majority of the populace outside of conspiracy sites and alternative thinkers, are going for a Democrat or Republican because it's who they identify with. It has been proven that election fraud was the game of the day in the last 2 elections by the Republicans. I haven't heard of any Democrats depending on election fraud. Clinton won the election fair and square as far as I know. For my dollar, the Republicans have proven to use election fraud to get Bush elected. I can't judge the Democratic Party based of what the Republicans did.



I'd like to hear what you expect for this coming election. I expect something like:

42% of the votes to go to Obama
32% McCain
13% Ron Paul
9% Bob Barr
4% Other

If you expect something different, I'd like to know what that is. If you have similar expectations to mine, tell me how voting for "someone else" isn't a worthless endeavor. I'm really confused b this one. Because I hear what people are saying, I just don't understand the logic of how to pull it off. I don't understand how to contribute such that it will make a difference. Thanks.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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You ask an important question on whether things would be the same regardless of who is elected or in power. I have wondered about it myself and found a simple way to test it.

Back in 2000, if Al Gore would have won the election, do you think we would have invaded Iraq? I think after 9/11, we would have invaded Afghanistan and would not have been distracted with Iraq and Bin Laden and Al Qaeda and the Taliban would all be history. The WOT would be over by now.

In my opinion, we would not have invaded Iraq, and I believe even republicans would agree with this, although they would say it was because he was weak. I would say it was because he would have listened to the weapons inspectors when they started saying they were skeptical of some of the claims of WMD's from our flawed intelligence.

If anyone thinks there is no difference and the election doesn't matter, they would have to explain this.

You mention the election fraud the Republicans have used. I am not saying I do not agree that this is the case, but I am sure you know that there are those (Republicans) who would ask that you prove this. The Democratic party needs this method less because they are, and have been, the natural majority. (As a percentage of the population) When the Republicans win, it is usually chalked up to "laziness" and disorganization on the part of the poor freeloading Democrats. (Except for the Florida fiasco)

You say that the Democratic party doesnt resort to this, and should not be judged on the basis of what the Republicans do, but, are they allowing it? Could there be collusion at high levels with the illusion of a two party system maintained but with there in fact being ONE agenda that is being furthered by both parties playing a "good cop/bad cop" game with us? When the Democrats gain power are the supposedly distasteful Republican policies done away with? (Patriot Act) Or new policies implemented that prevent this sort of fraud? (Or reform campaign finance in a meaningful way, or switch us to another form of electoral system, of which there are many that are thought to be more representative of the will of people, (run off voting, etc)



I do expect something similar. I do expect that Obama will win, and I think that is the plan. (For reasons I have stated earlier, they need the natural majority behind some new scheme regarding some new trade agreement)

I just disagree that this is what HAS to happen. What will drive this IS the belief that voting for Ron Paul is a wasted vote. (Or Nader) Once you buy the idea that you MUST vote the two main candidates, IF the two main candidates indeed are hand selected to support the same basic agenda with only minor variations to maintain the illusion of difference and choice, you have really wasted your vote. Even if you "throw your vote away" on Ron Paul, and he only gets a marginally higher percentage of the votes but does not win, it sends a message that we are on to the game.

That message, that we are on to the game, that we are not going to be led solely by the MSM into our decision making is a powerful one. Regardless whether we win this election or not. The idea that we MUST vote for one of the two hand selected candidates is not likely to change overnight. It will likely be incremental. If more people choose to vote their conscience, who they really want, not who they think will win, this will over time encourage others to do the same. Our country hasnt been stolen in one swift move, that would have been illegal and failed, it has been done incrementally. We arent going to get it back in one decisive move, THAT would require action that is also illegal at present, we have to do it incrementally if we are to stay within the law.

Even failing, if we put in a good show of free thinking and will, in my opinion it is a win. Those numbers matter. It sends a message that we are starting to wake up, that we arent going to be led down the garden path with the same old game, and it may encourage the puppetmasters to make a rash move to preempt this new mindset that might wake us up even more quickly. I would love for the powers that be to feel pressured into making a quick and hasty grab for power that was blatantly unconstitutional. MOST Americans love this country, and its Constitution, and freedom, and too quick a move against it would be a fatal error on the part of the wolves.

Oh...it is going to make a difference.

If we vote Republican we are going to waste BILLIONS on war in foreign countries.

If we vote Democrat we are going to waste BILLIONS on mis-allocation of funds (Obamas plans for Africa are wildly ineffective)




Im not one to slander politicians...that only weakens their ability. I dont blame anyone either. I believe its the overall system we live in that is fundamentally flawed. While this system we have in the U.S. is better than in many other countries, its still flawed. Reasons:

* Rule by only two parties
* Predictable stereotype policies
* Partisan polarization
* Politicians not educated in how life works
* Peoples dependence on political decisions




Education.

These clowns dont have a clue how to negotiate peace with foreign leaders. They dont have a clue how to conduct environmentally sound and at the same time profitable economy. No clue how to speak honestly in public. In my eyes they are uneducated puppets.

This is also the fault of the public who apparently feel the need to be lied to and not confront the facts.




Im not judging the politicians themselves. Im judging the system and the need to look into third alternatives.




Spreading the word of a third and fourth and fifth movement out there. Donating to them. Voting for them.

Saying "They are not important, life goes on, one of the two parties gets voted" = weakening them.





Do what you CAN do...in your own house, your own neighbourhood, your own company, your own group.

Voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil


Sorry about the Rant.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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Add-on: Me suggesting "Dont vote" is a bit too much. The statement of the OP is: "Go ahead and vote but dont expect your personal life to change".

reply to post by Hal9000

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We dont know what Gore would have done, you are right. What we DO know is that Clinton wanted Saddam out as well, he just wasnt willing to do what Bush did. In all fairness, he didnt have the same (9-11) excuse. If he HAD had the same excuse, who is to say he wouldnt have? Getting control of those oil fields has long been on the agenda.

www.carnegieendowment.org...



You should take the time to read the whole article, it isnt long. But it is enlightening, considering what happened AFTER 1998.