The politics of self-responsibility

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posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:03 AM
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It is my conviction that most take politics and who is in "power" much too seriously. While the elections are somewhat important, they are by no means as important as they are made out to be...in the general public or on this website.

Ive always been fine to look out after myself...no matter in which country Ive lived, no matter who was "in power". The leader of a country does not determine my personal destiny. I determine my personal destiny.

I see many lacking this type of self-responsibility expecting politicians to fix their life for them. Its not gonna happen. If you are waiting for some politician to change your life you are going to be dissappointed.

If a liberal gets voted thats fine for me - he can help the weaker people. If a conservative gets voted thats fine for me - his politics might help my businesses along. But realistically, I dont need any of this.

Powers shift all the time. Leaders come and go. Conflicts come and go. But all the while we are alone and ourselves responsible for what does or does not happen. Sure...democracy is important. Sure...voting is important to keep that democracy running. But apart from that...who the hell cares?

Add to that that usually neither of the two parties have offered anything particularly new or exciting in hundreds of years but only the usual predictable stereotypes, it matters even less.

Who´s with me in thinking that the people who take the Elections2008 too seriously are deceived into believing politics will fix it for them?

Obviously this is also an attack on the over-eager participants of political debate...convince me otherwise if you can. But I doubt you can because Ive always been doing just fine no matter who is in "power" (as if its presidents who have the real power
). Likewise there will always be those who never do fine, no matter who is in power.




posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:17 AM
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By the way...the only movements who even remotely understand this are the libertarians and anarchists (with the anarchists being very irresponsible toward the greater whole though).



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:20 AM
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Wonderfully said Skyfloating!

I could honestly not agree with you more. Quite honestly what you have said here is the reason I hold the Conservative views I do. I believe strongly in a very limited government that will allow me to live my life as I see fit.

Obviously we haven't had a government in place that has truly afforded us that opportunity, but I have done just fine regardless.

No matter what ridiculous policies the government puts in place, they still can't tell me how to raise my daughter. They still can't tell me how hard I can work to provide for her, or how to make decisions that affect my life. Sure they can create some silly policy that might cause me to change how I do things, but nothing more.

Self-responsibility is something that is on the decline in this country more and more. This is yet another reason why I feel so strongly about opposing new government institutions and programs.

In order to help this country out, we need to go back to teaching people how to help and strengthen themselves, rather than creating new programs to let the government do it for them.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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Applause! Bravo! Star for you.

The main reason we got into this problem in the first place is because we let other people represent us. Little by little we removed ourselves from responsibility because we thought "They" would protect us and keep our best interests at heart.

However, we know this is not the case.

This is the same reason so many people worldwide are waiting for their Saviour to return, to make everything better while they sit back and watch it happen and rejoice.

But a Saviour isn't going to come and make everything better. We have to do it ourselves, starting within. Each individual has to take responsibility and no one is going to do the work for others.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by nyk537
In order to help this country out, we need to go back to teaching people how to help and strengthen themselves, rather than creating new programs to let the government do it for them.


I figured you would be with me on this. Teaching people how to fish rather than giving them fish. Building schools in Africa rather than allocating funds (Obama) or going in to do a military clean up (McCain). Giving prime importance to education, self-empowerment, self-sustainability.

But tell you what...strong minded folks are able to thrive even if the government or political ideology sucks.

Now lets have some posters on here who actually take this Election2008 thing seriously.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by Ceara
But a Saviour isn't going to come and make everything better. We have to do it ourselves, starting within. Each individual has to take responsibility and no one is going to do the work for others.


Needing a saviour was the cause of every evil system ever to visit mankind. Hitler was the saviour. Stalin was the saviour. Muhammed is the saviour. One could say its all the same "lack of self-responsibility".



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
Now lets have some posters on here who actually take this Election2008 thing seriously.


Agreed.

Just to clarify though, I do take this election very seriously, and for the reasons we are discussing. Considering all of the social programs and new government institutions Obama wants to create, he would only be adding and increasing this countries dependency on the government.

Also, even though I can control the decisions I make in my life, if Obama starts holding hands with terrorists and hides his tail between his legs, there's only so much I can do.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
Now lets have some posters on here who actually take this Election2008 thing seriously.


LOL i take it seriously, but i hardly disagree w/ what you said. i take it seriously insomuch that i would like to get across to ppl who say they only have "the lesser of two evils" to vote for that they DO have other options.

of course, i am getting over the "wanting to say something" more and more as others who would say they are voting for one of the two evils don't really seem to care about their other options.

i will be in the voting booth, my conscience will be clear and ultimately i agree w/ you...... i alone am responsible for my life and how it is lived regardless of who ends up in office.

but having said that, i am also responsible in helping to shape the future of my two sons, which is why i do take it very seriously.



[edit on 18-7-2008 by justamomma]



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 09:07 AM
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Starred and Flagged.

I'm with you 100% up to a point. I believe that the PTB can and do have an effect on our individual lives, but not to the extent most people seem to think. I need no one to help me, I just need to be left alone to do what I need to do.

Help comes from home, not from Washington DC. The further away help comes from, the longer it takes to arrive, and the more likely it will not be the help you need. If someone breaks into my home and threatens me, I am the first line of defense; The police are second. If a tornado comes through my neighborhood, I am the first line of defense; The neighborhood itself is second-line; The county is third-line; The Feds come way way down the list.

We have all been tricked into this belief that only rich Uncle Sam can fix our problems, when in fact it is malicious Uncle Sam who has been the root cause of most of them. Which brings up how the election can affect me directly and seriously. While it is always a good thing to help those who are weaker than oneself, it is also a very bad thing to starve a class of people so another class can eat. This has not yet happened here in the good ol' USA, but it is possible. For example, laws are already on the books that allow children to be removed from their parents' household for meaningless 'infractions' that have nothing to do with the child's safety or welfare (admittedly, most of these are rarely enforced). This will not happen to me. So, if we use that example, I would rather not die just yet over some idiotic and meaningless law.

That's an extreme example, but it makes my point. As long as the burdens are bearable, you are completely correct. It would only be if the burdens became unbearable that anyone would actually be endangered. And should legislation this heinous be attempted, I am sure I would not be alone in fighting it. That balances out the power struggle.

BTW, I think Bob Barr is gonna get my vote this November. Libertarian, long-time admirer, first-time voter.


TheRedneck



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 09:40 AM
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Skyfloating, I find I agree strongly with some of your points and disagree with others. So I will address them individually.


Originally posted by Skyfloating
It is my conviction that most take politics and who is in "power" much too seriously. While the elections are somewhat important, they are by no means as important as they are made out to be...in the general public or on this website.


To know whether I agree with this or not, I would have to know your definitions of several concepts, so I will just say what I think.


I take politics "seriously" like I take American Idol or Buffy, the Vampire Slayer seriously. (Please withhold automatic judgments.) I watch American Idol because I am a singer and I love the character study, It's entertainment. I watch every episode, but I don't vote or really care who wins. We own all the Buffys and Angels on DVD and watch the series with dinner. It's fun. It's entertainment. I debate on political subjects because I love to debate. It's fun. It's entertainment. I take my fun seriously.


But, in the larger scheme of things, none of it really matters at all. So, depending on what is meant by taking something seriously, I would say yes, it's serious to me like playing Pictionary is serious to me. I REALLY want to win. I want to do my best. I'm competitive, but I'm a great loser, because 10 minutes later, I don't remember or care who won.

As far as people on this board taking the election too seriously, I say to each his or her own. It fills a certain need within people and I don't have a problem with that. But I don't live under the illusion that who is in power is going to change my life.




The leader of a country does not determine my personal destiny. I determine my personal destiny.


I am in total agreement with you here. I am a strong believe in my personal power and my accountability and responsibility for my life and everything that happens in my awareness.



Who´s with me in thinking that the people who take the Elections2008 too seriously are deceived into believing politics will fix it for them?


I don't agree with this for the reasons stated above. I take this election seriously in terms of the "game", but I have no belief that politics or a certain president will fix anything for me. Actually, my life is fixed. I have it made, in my opinion. I couldn't be much happier. Well, I could win the lottery. That would be neat.




Obviously this is also an attack on the over-eager participants of political debate...convince me otherwise if you can.


I don't really have any desire to convince you otherwise, but I might give you some information you can use. And I can only speak for myself. But political debate (to me) is fun. It's challenging, creative and dramatic. I know myself well enough to know that I have a need for those experiences in my life. To fill those needs in a constructive way is a good thing. If typing my opinions on a screen fills 3 needs at once, helps me learn, stretch my mind and maybe someone else's, then that's a Good Thing!

Overall I agree with you that a person's happiness, contentment and destiny is their own responsibility. The "powers" aren't going to change much about that. I have never been a member of a political party, but when I take those political ideology tests, I almost always end up in Libertarian.

So, I would say that the assessments and judgments made on people's political debating without knowing the person behind the debate or their reasons for doing so might lead you to an erroneous conclusion.

Hope that helps.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 10:02 AM
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Just as I posted, I got kicked off and had to log in. My post didn't show up here, but it shows in the reply area... Strange) So I'm going to try it again. (Fortunately, I saved it)


Skyfloating, I find I agree strongly with some of your points and disagree with others. So I will address them individually.


Originally posted by Skyfloating
It is my conviction that most take politics and who is in "power" much too seriously. While the elections are somewhat important, they are by no means as important as they are made out to be...in the general public or on this website.


To know whether I agree with this or not, I would have to know your definitions of several concepts, so I will just say what I think.


I take politics "seriously" like I take American Idol or Buffy, the Vampire Slayer seriously. (Please withhold automatic judgments.) I watch American Idol because I am a singer and I love the character study, It's entertainment. I watch every episode, but I don't vote or really care who wins. We own all the Buffys and Angels on DVD and watch the series with dinner. It's fun. It's entertainment. I debate on political subjects because I love to debate. It's fun. It's entertainment. I take my fun seriously.


But, in the larger scheme of things, none of it really matters at all. So, depending on what is meant by taking something seriously, I would say yes, it's serious to me like playing Pictionary is serious to me. I REALLY want to win. I want to do my best. I'm competitive, but I'm a great loser, because 10 minutes later, I don't remember or care who won.

As far as people on this board taking the election too seriously, I say to each his or her own. It fills a certain need within people and I don't have a problem with that. But I don't live under the illusion that who is in power is going to change my life.




The leader of a country does not determine my personal destiny. I determine my personal destiny.


I am in total agreement with you here. I have a strong belief in my personal power and I believe I am accountable and responsible for my life and my awareness.



Who´s with me in thinking that the people who take the Elections2008 too seriously are deceived into believing politics will fix it for them?


I don't agree with this for the reasons stated above. I take this election seriously in terms of the "game", but I have no belief that politics or a certain president will fix anything for me. Actually, my life is fixed. I have it made, in my opinion. I couldn't be much happier. Well, I could win the lottery. That would be neat.




Obviously this is also an attack on the over-eager participants of political debate...convince me otherwise if you can.


I don't really have any desire to convince you otherwise, but I might give you some information you can use. And I can only speak for myself. But political debate (to me) is fun. It's challenging, creative and dramatic. I know myself well enough to know that I have a need for those experiences in my life. To fill those needs in a constructive way is a good thing. If typing my opinions on a screen fills 3 needs at once, helps me learn, stretch my mind and maybe someone else's, then that's a Good Thing!

Overall I agree with you that a person's happiness, contentment and destiny is their own responsibility. The "powers" aren't going to change much about that. I have never been a member of a political party, but when I take those political ideology tests, I almost always end up in Libertarian.

So, I would say that the assessments and judgments made on people's political debating without knowing the person behind the debate or their reasons for doing so might lead you to an erroneous conclusion.

Hope that helps.


Edited for horrendous grammar.
And to provide clarity.

[edit on 18-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
To know whether I agree with this or not, I would have to know your definitions of several concepts, so I will just say what I think.


I appreciate the exchange with one of the politics-forums regulars. I had a list of people in mind, you were one of them.



But, in the larger scheme of things, none of it really matters at all. So, depending on what is meant by taking something seriously, I would say yes, it's serious to me like playing Pictionary is serious to me. I REALLY want to win. I want to do my best. I'm competitive, but I'm a great loser, because 10 minutes later, I don't remember or care who won.


I can understand that. I love playing games and winning. Debating and winning. Politics as a game is fun.

But the mistaken expectation of "change" happening in ones life because of it and the heated seriousness and mudslinging associated with it you´d think "game" as become a matter of life and death.





I don't agree with this for the reasons stated above. I take this election seriously in terms of the "game", but I have no belief that politics or a certain president will fix anything for me. Actually, my life is fixed. I have it made, in my opinion. I couldn't be much happier. Well, I could win the lottery. That would be neat.




Well, you may not have that expectation.



But political debate (to me) is fun. It's challenging, creative and dramatic.


There´s not really any disagreement I have with you. Disagreement is fun.
Hopefully someone who takes the Election more seriously will show up here so that I can disagree with himh/her.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
But the mistaken expectation of "change" happening in ones life because of it and the heated seriousness and mudslinging associated with it you´d think "game" as become a matter of life and death.


Well, I don't want to speak for anyone else, but when I think of "change", I'm not thinking of change in my life, personally. I'm thinking of a change in direction as a country. ( I touched on it here ) When I speak of desiring change, it's for our country to take a different tack in the world.

I don't do a lot of mudslinging. I've even tried (pretty unsuccessfully) to help Raise the Quality of the Political Threads.



Hopefully someone who takes the Election more seriously will show up here so that I can disagree with himh/her.


Good luck on that.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 02:33 PM
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Yep. People want leaders and saviors because they don't want to take responsibility for their world. It also makes it easier to blame someone else when things go south.

The definition of a "leader" is often considered of as someone who leads another. As in, telling someone else what to do, or how things work. And what that particular person of authority says is usually taken on faith. I don't follow this kind of leader.

A true leader leads by example, not by controlling others. A true leader would encourage people to lead themselves, to think for themselves, to take responsibility for their own lives. The false leaders will tell you that if you elect them, all your problems will go away.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
Starred and Flagged.


Wouldnt have expected any other opinion from you.

Im having a real hard time finding people to disagree with.


_______________________________________


So to the readers out there: Does it really matter whether McCain or Obama are president? For me personally it will not change a thing.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I don't do a lot of mudslinging. I've even tried (pretty unsuccessfully) to help Raise the Quality of the Political Threads.



Ive noticed several of your attempts to raise the quality of political discussion here.

The reason it has been low in the first place is because people take it so damn seriously that they feel the need to post blatantly false information about the other candidate.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 



Originally posted by Skyfloating
Ive noticed several of your attempts to raise the quality of political discussion here.

The reason it has been low in the first place is because people take it so damn seriously that they feel the need to post blatantly false information about the other candidate.


That happens on both sides.

Another reason that political discussion is next to impossible here is the hyperbole that is so prevalent. Barely a day goes by where a thread is not polluted with stories of how we are on the verge of being herded onto red and blue trains and sent off to Halliburton-built internment camps that are guarded by Blackwater mercenaries, to be greeted by Karl Rove and Dick Cheney as they check our names off their clipboards before they send us off to have an RFID chip implanted between our shoulder blades.

There are so many threads that have a hysterical and false title. People do not bother reading the source article or examining the source. They just react to the headline, and the piling-on begins. This particular drama happens much more often on the left side of the political spectrum than on the right.

Imo, this happened immediately after PTS was merged with ATS.


On the other hand, there are issues that concern and affect us, and our children. I don't consider staying informed and active to be taking politics too seriously. I rely on no man as my savior, but I'll stay informed, thank you.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


OK... remember that you asked for it...



While the elections are somewhat important, they are by no means as important as they are made out to be...in the general public or on this website.


I disagree wholeheartedly...

I think that in this election especially we have a candidate, Obama, that leans so far to the left that he could possibly cause real damage to us as a Nation. While there is a place for Liberalism in our society, the extreme Socialist/Marxist tendencies now prevalent in the Left and especially among Obama supporters is in direct opposition to everything this great nation was founded on and has flourished through.


Ive always been fine to look out after myself...no matter in which country Ive lived


Now see, that is the problem...

If the "left" gets their way, you will not be ALLOWED to look after yourself.. They want to do it for you and force you to accept their care taking.


I determine my personal destiny.


Not in a liberal socialist society you don't.... That is a FACT


If you are waiting for some politician to change your life you are going to be dissappointed.


That is what all of us keep trying to tell everyone about the change BS..


neither of the two parties have offered anything particularly new or exciting in hundreds of years but only the usual predictable stereotypes, it matters even less.


Except this year..

This year the most radical left leaning Socialist/Marxist candidate in history is running and stands a real chance of destroying over 200 years of growth and success.


who take the Elections2008 too seriously are deceived into believing politics will fix it for them?


Politics is nothing more than the ends to the means.

We have to do something to fight for the survival of the country I have loved so all my life. The political arena is the only place I have available.


Ive always been doing just fine no matter who is in "power"


We have never really faced true Socialism or true Marxism before.

Perhaps you have done just fine, I know that I have under Bush been very successful and made good money. That will all change under Socialism and if the Left has their way, with the President, House and Senate, how much more damage will they do?

With just the House and Senate, they have managed to destroy the economy, jack up gas prices, increase the jobless rate and blow up the housing market.

Give them the President and we will be the United States of Socialism

Semper



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


yep, I ask for a tough stance against my view in order to put it to the test.

Dont you think you´re exaggerating just a little bit?

If you´re such a tough guy 4 years of a liberal president wont hurt you. Perfect balance is 8 years conservative, 4 years liberal. Thats been the nature of things as far as I can tell. Balance.

Neither Obama nor any other person in the U.S. is going to be imposing a marxist system. Thats an unrealistic and exaggerated idea. No way anyone is going to allow that. I understand you´ve been using this idea in order to get some points across, but its not really going to happen. The president isnt the only person running the country.

You also have to admit that your side could have put up another candidate than a 72 year old.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 09:00 PM
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Except for Semper's post, I find the remaining posts a bit disturbing. At least with Semper, I know where he stands and he understands the importance, even though he is wrong. The apathy being displayed here is what I am talking about. You are all talking about how politics or this election doesn't really affect you, and that you are the one that is in control of your life, right? Well good for you. Carry on with your lives and sleep well.

Meanwhile half a world away, there are people just like you who are picking up the pieces that we left behind. They have lost loved ones and their country is in shambles. How does that not bother you? How can you say politics doesn't matter? The Iraq war was unnecessary and we were misled as a nation to do the bidding of right wing extremists and I do not feel like letting that go as if it didn't happen.

The taxes we payed, that so many complain that we pay too much of, went toward funding that misery. My hard earned money was used to buy some bomb that destroyed someone else's home. I am none to happy about that, and will not be satisfied until the republican party pays for this. That is what this upcoming election is about. It is not about some liberal messiah or some has been conservative.

I do blame the entire republican party because it was in my home State of Ohio that barely gave Bush the electoral votes to be re-elected in 2004. The local republican party had setup the election to disenfranchise democratic votes. The republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell was in charge of the distribution of the new touchscreen voting machines and restricted the number that went to heavy democratic districts and people had to wait in line 3 hours to vote. I wonder how many didn't bother to wait the three hours and walked away disenfranchised. The local courts ordered the polls to stay open for an additional three hours to allow everyone in line at 7:30 when the polls closed to be able to cast a vote. Needless to say Bush won by a mere 150,000 votes in Ohio and that gave him the election. The republicans cheated in the election and we shouldn't allow that to happen ever again.

This is what politics is all about. Even local politicians can have a huge effect on the outcome and ultimately the direction this country will take. That is how important it is, and you should not take it for granted.

I can hear you republicans giggling in the background. We will see who has the last laugh come November.





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