Aliens Probably Don't Communicate Via Primitive Radio Waves So Why Is SETI Looking For Them?

SETI could be yet another decoy from the american government to get people to believe they really are making progress.

They spend billions a year on top secret projects and if they did receive some sort of signal chances are they would cover that up also.

Im afraid to say the truth will never see the light so long as the deceitful governments are involved.

Look, everyone likes to assume that if there's aliens out there, then we ought to easily be able to detect their signals.

It doesn't work like that. It's like trying to find a particular grain of sand, on a particular beach, at a particular time. It's an unlikely premise at best, that we'd detect a signal, even if every alien out there used radio waves at any point in their civilization.

Why?

Well, it may even already be stated in one of these pages, but here goes (very low hypothetical numbers, the real ones would be more like millions).

Say an alien civilization last used radio 5000 years ago. They're at such a distance, that the waves take 10000 years to reach us. So, those waves have only made it halfway to us so far!!! (even though they stopped using them 5000 years ago!)

Likewise, lets say they used them 20000 years ago. The signals got here while we were still chasing herds and writing on cave walls.

So, even if we're looking at the exact right patch of sky, it's all in timing, not location, as to whether we get "lucky"... So, we keep trying, for when that very first signal finally makes it across the cosmos. Is it a crapshoot? Of course....but imagine the payoff of a true signal. The big downer is that the civizilation that created it is probably come and gone. (or at least is unlikely to be using anything to detect our response).

If such a signal was ever to be detected how will SETI confirm from which point it arose from and send a response in that general direction.

Astronomers need jobs too. They have families to feed like the rest of us. They are not hurting anyone.



[edit on 7-15-2008 by groingrinder]

If such a signal was ever to be detected how will SETI confirm from which point it arose from and send a response in that general direction.

There is an established protocol. The biggest criteria is the need for repetition of the signal, unlike the infamous "Wow" signal, which never repeated.

www.coseti.org...

Originally posted by Gazrok
Say an alien civilization last used radio 5000 years ago. They're at such a distance, that the waves take 10000 years to reach us. So, those waves have only made it halfway to us so far!!! (even though they stopped using them 5000 years ago!)

Likewise, lets say they used them 20000 years ago. The signals got here while we were still chasing herds and writing on cave walls.

One problem,CMBR in relation to power of artificial radio transmissions.

Cosmic microwave background radiation permeates everywhere,does not matter where you are.

We would not be able to detect such a distant radio transmission from such a distance due to the `background noise`the CMBR produces,even on the same frequency.

All electromagnetic waves become `diluted` in proportion to distance from the origin,radio waves are no exception.This works in our favour too,as a common misnomer is that as a species,we are may attract unwanted attention to ourselves as a result of our broadcasts.Infact,as our technology improves (satellites bouncing signals back to Earth) we are becoming quieter.

Aliens using radio waves for communication is a huge assumption. IF EM radiation is harmful to an alien then their civilisation would have developed with wired communication. Any interstaller comms would be by an as yet undiscovered faster than light method. Net result alien radio silence.

If Aliens have received our radio signals, then they have probably come to the conclusion that we are beyond insane. That probably explains why they've been avoiding us like the plague. Either that, or they've probably put our planet under quarantine.

I imagine Aliens who can travel beyond the stars are using gravity waves as their main method of communication.

LOL wow you guys make me lol. Aliens won't know our signal.

I am sure of it.

Even if you send a radio signal to space or even an object I am sure they won't be able to communicate back.

I am just saying what if they are more advance than us yet they don't know what radios are or radio signals.

We are assuming they know what we know. They can be more advanced then us but it dosen't mean they will know exactly what we know. we learn alot by experimenting this is how we came out and learned many things. They will not know how to communicate or they would not be sitting on a planet hopeing to recieve a signal from us. It's just like trying to communicate with someone that speaks a different language then you.

I am just saying what if based on the enviroment they skipped ahead of knoing waht radio signals are but know about plasma.

I am just saying. I think it's pointless in sending messages from earth to the universe.

What if a comet or a meterite destories our message or gets pulled into an alien sun and burns.

I am just saying we should focus on making it cheaper to transport humans to mars and the moon rather then trying to find aliens. Let them find us.

If there were aliens near by wouldn't they be getting our tv stations and radio stations from the past??

I just think we are putting our resources in the wrong place. We really need to focus on getting up in space. Once we are able to move in space. We then can have an expidition team go exploring. It would be like what we did in history claiming new lands but now we are going to claim new worlds ect.

I just think seti is a waste of time and money. They will never find anything out their. We have to go out their and explore for ourselfs not send radion signals hoping they will send them back.

Also what if we are the only life forms in the universe currently and other planets are just starting life forms.

I am just saying we don't know if life is out their or if it's just starting. If the big boom really did happened then wouldn't our milkyway galaxy be one the oldest galaxies out their???

[edit on 15-7-2008 by computerwiz32]

reply to post by MsSmartypants


Im a newby but if you was one of the so called elite and you had the money to do any thing the starting of wars and killing the poor for fun would some day get really boaring,right? You also would know what scientist know that in less than 50 years they will be able to help you live 100s of years so you would give your government billions to secretly build ways to travel in space you would also give money out for some one to look for alien worlds so you could go take over there world to get even more richer. You would want the people looking for these aliens to look for some that are not more advanced then you so you dont get your but kicked.lol well thats my story an Im sticking to it.

reply to post by computerwiz32


Interesting take, but I believe you are overstating your case (but not wrong) on a few counts.

First, mastery of the fundamental forces, mechanical, electrical, magnetic, weak and strong nuclear forces and gravity will be part of any advanced civilization's progress, unless you postulate that all aliens are like the Farscape living spaceship.

So they will be -aware- of electromagnetic forms of communication. I would presume that this kind of mastery would be required by any civilization which used computers. Of course you could postulate a creature which had computer-like neurological functions. (maybe silicon-based creatures?)

As one poster said, a civilization might be hyper-sensitive to radio waves and electromagnetic leakage and would not be able to use it (without shielding or remote use), but I'd suggest that these types would be fairly rare and would be limited by their ability to communicate in any way. Still, not impossible to conjecture other organic methods.

As far as becoming space faring, I'd remind that the first priority of any sentient civilization would not be to go off exploring but it would be to establish a self-sustaining remote base, and then soon after a self-sustaining base capable of completely duplicating all the technology of the home world. Otherwise, the periodic extinction events, including comets, meteors and gamma-ray burst phenomena, and other events, would still be capable of wiping out their civilization.

Only after they've done this, say, 5 to 10 duplicate worlds, some of them established in remote enough locations to preclude GRB extinctions, would they be safe to go off and do large scale exploration of other parts of the Galaxy.

Even a Type II civilization, which might be able to prevent most of the major types of extinction events, would still be vulnerable to GRB. So they'd have to set up several remote colonies, at least contemporaneousy to any large-scale explorations.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but that it seems very likely that Type I civilizations will be familiar with electromagnetic radiation and be able to receive radio signals. Once they hit the level of a Type 1.5 and can afford to devote several Gigawatts to a sending station, they will likely try to beam signals as well as receive. But that could be considered advanced technology, and could be eclipsed by other methods by the time it's set up. Still they'd 'remember' their primitive methodologies and would likely incorporate that as well, banking on the idea that a broad spectrum of methods would yield the best results. We still use drums and smoke signals, and even whistling in parts of the world that aren't technologically advanced, partly because we want to be compatible with local methods. ET would do the same, I suspect.

2 cents.

Originally posted by Badge01
First, mastery of the fundamental forces, mechanical, electrical, magnetic, weak and strong nuclear forces and gravity will be part of any advanced civilization's progress, unless you postulate that all aliens are like the Farscape living spaceship.

Why??

Again I say that's the HUMAN way of thinking. I presume you are human, but when we are trying to contact aliens we must NOT assume that ALL alien civilizations advanced the same way humans did. I would say we have a similar chance of intercepting an alien radio broadcast as Earth has of being destroyed by a comet/asteroid/etc.

reply to post by Lannock


ive posted this twice already, seti doesnt assume all aliens use radio waves. They hope "some" will use radio waves. Or do you think humans are special and are the only ones to discover/use radio waves? Quite an arrogant assumption some would say.

computerwiz32, so you think we shouldnt even bother trying to search for signals? Christopher columbos could have sat all day in a spanish bar discussing whether there was a new continent across the ocean. The only way to ever find out is to do the experiment and look.

any scientific study is worth doing if it explores a new parameter space. No matter how crazy. To find out anything you must do the experiment. Thats how science works.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by yeti101]

Future SETI: Looking for Alien Lasers, Gravity Waves.

If you've ever seen the movie Contact, you'll know the alien-hunter stereotype: quirky, visionary loners who sit up all night listening to static, hoping for the signal that will change the world. That's probably not far off from real life, except that SETI (that's Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) scientists are getting creative. Here at the Astrobiology Science Conference, 2008, they're presenting new ways of looking for little green men, including watching for signs of alien lasers, infrared signals, and even gravity waves.


SETI scientists have been looking for alien lasers for years now — part of the Optical SETI programs several universities and observatories across the country.

Those projects are still going full-bore, but scientists are hoping to increase their chances of success by building a detector that will look for near-infrared lasers, too. Just on the lower edge of the optical range of electromagnetic wavelengths, Andrew Howard and colleagues from UC Berkeley figure there's no good reason aliens wouldn't build a near-IR laser. And if they did, they'd obviously use it to broadcast complex signals to Earth containing detailed plans on how to build a device for interstellar travel.

Maybe that's getting a bit ahead of ourselves, but just in case, we'd better look for intelligent signals broadcast through gravity waves, too. These still-theoretical ripples in space-time are being tested for by the LiGO (Laser interferometry Gravitational wave Observatory) detector, mostly as a way to test astronomical theories. At least one researcher, Peter Hahn believes we should start analyzing the data for signs of ET, too.

io9.com...

How to get a Kick out of Gravity

www.americanantigravity.com...

UFODATA MAGAZINE - FREE ISSUE - WORTH A READ
www.ufodata.co.uk...


[edit on 16-7-2008 by kindred]

What would the Internet sound like if all signals were converted to sound? could you hear spoken words or phrases? That is how phony seti is.....

Originally posted by Lannock

Originally posted by Badge01
First, mastery of the fundamental forces, mechanical, electrical, magnetic, weak and strong nuclear forces and gravity will be part of any advanced civilization's progress, unless you postulate that all aliens are like the Farscape living spaceship.

Why??

Again I say that's the HUMAN way of thinking. I presume you are human, but when we are trying to contact aliens we must NOT assume that ALL alien civilizations advanced the same way humans did. I would say we have a similar chance of intercepting an alien radio broadcast as Earth has of being destroyed by a comet/asteroid/etc.

Because PHYSICS is the same everywhere (except inside a black hole).

Some/Many/Most aliens would still use levers, gear, pneumatics (at least at some point in their deveopment) operate flashlights, drive a vehicle, listen to the radio, utilize fire, or employ a reasonable facsimile of the same.

Though it is a 'human' way of thinking, those are the types of aliens that we'd wish to contact.

Sure an alien species may be a sentient rock which exists in geologic time, communicating with gravity waves caused by geothermal quakes, but so what? We couldn't communicate with them anyway.

Aliens may change, or vary, but physics and fundamental forces remain the same and they will all need to master them at some point. Even biological systems utilize inertia and have to communicate across vast distances.

Some may have novel methods, but they'd be aware of electromagnetic radiation since stars give off the same emissions. You can't navigate space without an awareness of physics, frequency, wavelength, E-M spectrum, cosmic rays if you're a 3-D being with whom we have any hope of communicating. You don't rule out conventional physics and fundamental forces just because you might be able to think of one exception.



[edit on 16-7-2008 by Badge01]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
What would the Internet sound like if all signals were converted to sound? could you hear spoken words or phrases? That is how phony seti is.....

It doesn't matter. SETI looks for repeating signals, not signal content.

A civilization transmitting a signal might use a variety of methods, but they'd surely include a 'carrier wave', such as a repeatng signal based on the frequeny of the Hydrogen line (1420.40575 MHz).

www.setileague.org...

In 1959 two scholars (Philip Morrison at Cornell University and Frank Drake at NRAO) independently recognized that the hydrogen line would be a likely frequency for interstellar beacons. They reasoned that more advanced civilizations would reason that young civilizations (like ours) might already be listening there. Based upon that circular reasoning, Morrison went on to co-author the world's first modern SETI article ("Searching for Interstellar Communications," Nature 184(4690):844-846, September 19, 1959), and Drake conducted a the first modern SETI study, "Project Ozma," a hydrogen line search of two nearby Sun-like stars for possible artificial signals.

Again, there might be other methods, but they'd surely include this because it's so obvious to any civilization which understands physics and radio astronomy and are similar enough to us that we'd be able to communicate.

Sure there might by highy strange species out there that use other methods, but as I said before it doesn't preclude use of this kind of method.

If our society is getting criticized for our ways of trying to communicate to interstellar beings, just think about how much worse the aliens are getting it on their home planet!! I can hear it already, Alien criticizer: "You are still using pulse laser tiponium correlegance to try and pick up other life forms transmissions from other planets in the galaxy!!!?!?!?!?111, THAT is ridiculous!"

[edit on 16-7-2008 by porschedrifter]

Come on people....radio waves. These beings are so far from radio waves it's funny. Read this concept on, Plasma life forms.

www.unexplained-mysteries.com...

also in this article.....

"The SETI Institute's program objective in trying to find intelligent life outside Earth is to some extent misguided. "

reply to post by MsSmartypants


SETI has these huge dishes looking for intelligent life billions of miles
away from Earth. This is stupid. The aliens are already HERE on
EARTH. We need an Independence Day moment. Hopefully, the
Grays will help us out and just transmit from the moon.
"Greeting! We are here. We are a lot closer than you think."
Repeat the message over and over from the moon.
238,000 miles away.