Aliens Probably Don't Communicate Via Primitive Radio Waves So Why Is SETI Looking For Them?

Originally posted by MsSmartypants
I didn't think ATS members were so naive to think that the people working at SETI ... people who are already interested in extraterrestrials... don't already realize that the more technologically advanced aliens are already here and the 'search' is just for show.

Hey there MSP

Yeah, I think that I'm one of the gullible one's here in this area. I've been a member of SETI since 2000 or so.
Using SETI@home, I run data checks for them as do millions of others around the world.
I have no idea if it's doing any good or not. I have, supposedly, found 9 or 10 things of interest in all of that time.
But that being said I did find something or more to the point, the computer heard something.

It the only way I can help to prove that there is life out there. It my hard science link and I have to keep doing it.

Don't know if you heard, but SETI lost there funding and the Arecibo telescope is going to be shut down, according to recent rumors.

reply to post by MsSmartypants


Perhaps its just to appear like were looking for ET's... actually im not sure.. you do have an excellent point... I seem to recall reading/watching something on the subject of the "Grey's Info Stream of Energy" and its receicved telelpathically... this (whatever it was I caught it on) was talking about how to meditate to alledgedly tap into this stream and communicate with a race of greys..

As a former scientist I should say - you need to eat. And if the only thing you can do is SETI, you will do SETI, even if this is nonsense.

SETI is beeing used to harass canadians . WE know grey , we dont CALL UP UNKNOWNS that is dangerous . The uninvited come down and check out our stuff because they are interested who's people are calling . The kids who set this scam up again want you to harass the Alien so he shows up and he goes straight to France , Russia and canada the only real space agencies on this planet . Thanks retards , thanks alot !

[edit on 13-7-2008 by jokerdazey2]

reply to post by mahasvin


Nonsense? Nonsense!? ... Shoot, I lost my train of thought...oh,yeah, did Mr. Michio Kaku spout nonsense when he (unknowingly) defended my position in an earlier post via you tube video? Well, do you put yourself, you FORMER scientist, above the great Michio Kaku? Why National Geographic themselves agree with me....or I with them, same difference, but anyway. So there!

reply to post by jokerdazey2


Yeah! you rule! Your opinions like totally rock! I could never have put it like that, ever! Whoa! I underestimated the length of this thread by one word, hence this additional and unnecessary (by informational standards) line.

[edit on 13-7-2008 by MsSmartypants]

reply to post by jokerdazey2


Norway is a space state as well. Narvik Unversity makes launches of meteo satellites.

Here is a what if for you. What if our radio waves do not penetrate our solar system's heliopause? What if that is a common feature in solar system RF dynamics and none of our radio waves are traveling beyond our own local solar system?

We have never been outside of our own heliopause so we have no way to know better.

Heliopause Weirdness

reply to post by JackHill


Try and look up "Primary Perception", Cleve Backster thought this type of communication was instanteneous.
"Galactic Life Unveiled" by George Lawrence is another that has experimented with biological communication.
kaare Heistein

reply to post by UFOTECH


Even more ironic, what if lots of alien civilizations are transmitting signals which are blocked by the heliopause?

They must think nobody's home.

Just another aspect of the complete quarantine that the cold, vacuum, distance and radiation of interstellar space uses to keep everyone isolated to their home planets.

Even more ironic, what if lots of alien civilizations are transmitting signals which are blocked by the heliopause?

They must think nobody's home.

Just another aspect of the complete quarantine that the cold, vacuum, distance and radiation of interstellar space uses to keep everyone isolated to their home planets.

That was what I was thinking when I made that post. It might be a common feature of solar system RF dynamics and we just don't know any better. The radio sources we typically pick up are from very large radio sources like stars, quasars, and pulsars and the like. Perhaps our rather feeble artificial radio signals are simply attenuated by the heliopause and travel no further.

Advanced civilizations likely would find this out and use more advanced methods of communication like quantum tunneling or gravity lens slingshots. Who knows until we get beyond our immediate area.

I've always wondered the exact same thing. We haven't even discover their methods of communication, and they probably stopped using EMW about 2 million years ago. I saw part of the Larry King show, the seti guy acted like the witnesses from Texas were foolish, and he uses radio wave to look for aliens? LOL, what a fool!

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Sure, NOW. But they had to get there somehow. You don't just go from shortwave communications to worm holes and instantaneous communication overnight.

I did not read the whole topic yet, so dunno if someone brought this up, but that is a typical HUMAN way of thinking. Maybe "advancing" to radio waves and then further only happened on this oppressed planet and more "open-minded" civilizations might have advanced past radio waves. Why does every civilization HAVE to use radio waves at some point in their growth?

reply to post by Lannock


you think humans are special and are the only civlization to discover radio waves?

seti dont expect every civ to be using radio. Shostak thinks theres 10,000+ civs in the galaxy some maybe building pyramids others more advanced using diffirent methods. They hope "some" will be sending radio signals.


[edit on 14-7-2008 by yeti101]

reply to post by yeti101


I think Seth's calculation is overly optimistic.

Here's an on-line DE calculator.

Drake Calculator

By picking conservative numbers you get anywhere from about 160 to about 2400 for very liberal estimates.

Where Drake and others go wrong is that they fail to take into account 'Goldilocks Zones', which are areas of the galaxy with lower radiation hazards and lower impact (extinction) hazards (but since periodic extinctions are likely a driving force for the development or evolution of intelligent life (because it allow for optimal filling of niches), they can't be absent).

The existence of very hostile areas of the Galaxy would be likely to prevent easy emergence of life (not to mention sentient life). The galactic core, which is often mentioned as probably teeming with life is probably just the opposite, because of the more intense radiation from the density of stellar objects and other things, like Gamma-Ray burst threats.

So if you assume that there are 100 billion suitable stars (not too big, not too young or old) and if you assume that 1 in 5 is a pretty good number for habitable planets and one suitable planet per Solar System, your number is going to be quite low (comparatively).

Play with the numbers and you can easily see that 10K to 10e6 estimates:

Seth predicts

...are just too high.

2 cents.

PS - one other area of over estimation is 'confluence', imo. IOW, a civilization may exist for 10,000 years, but they're unlikely to be sent and noticed during the time when we could receive radio signals from them (say last 200 years). This probably drops the 'communicating' factor quite a bit.






[edit on 14-7-2008 by Badge01]

[edit on 14-7-2008 by Badge01]

reply to post by Badge01


I personally think theres about 5 in the entire galaxy.

but they do take into account things like the GHZ, shostak doesnt think its a big deal its still 20 percent of the galaxy. The drake equatiuon also takes things like the goldilocks zone into account. This comes under "number planets capable of supporting life"

their biggest mistake is thinking nature will stumble across technological intelligence often. Actually they dont think it will they hope it will. Becuase even shostak admits nature doesnt seem very interested in intelligence.


i dont think mainstream science think the "galactic core" is teeming with civs. But if we travel towards the core we will find the first "earth like" planets- so its sensible to think the first civs had the oppertunity to arise long before us towards the center of the galaxy. We can travel quite far before it gets dangerous. But seti cant look for signals there its too noisy.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by yeti101]

reply to post by yeti101



Yeah, personally I think it probably averages out to maybe 1 or 2 sentient civilizations per every 10 Galaxies, which is only about a factor of 20 less than your estimate.

What is the GHZ?

I don't think that the term 'percentage of planets capable of supporting intelligent life' adequately captures the Goldilocks Zone factor. I think there are wide expanses where the radiation is too high and the extinction events are too low to favor development of life. This would drop that term to maybe 1/10th of the current conservative estimates, or even lower. What I meant is that I don't think that scientists take into account how hostile the galactic center is.

As far as the idea that Nature doesn't necessarily tend toward development of intelligence, I quite agree. However there could be forces that we don't appreciate, which could radically drive down the number of potential communicating civilizations. The longer we look the more we appreciate how rare life on Earth really is.

reply to post by Badge01


GHZ = Galactic habitable zone.

drake himself still gets poeple asking him to include other factors and has done for years. Theyre all covered. "Ne is the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets" someone else posted on these forums they think "planets with water" should be a factor. We presume life needs water so this is also covered "Ne" theres also "fℓ is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point"


In your scenario Ne would be small. its up to you what you fill in!

we could still travel 10,000 light years towards the galactic core and be ok. Were about 35,000 light years away. Closer than 25k ly and it gets a bit dodgy


[edit on 14-7-2008 by yeti101]

reply to post by yeti101


Yes, I'm in perfect agreement with your comments.

I'm really just dancing around trying to cover other people's estimates, and predicting that the GHZ and the G-LZ are very restricted which would just lower the estimate for those people, such as Shostak who, IMO, fail to consider the real limits of certain terms.

I'd like to see his thinking broken down into the specifics of how he conjectures such high numbers. It's really no big deal, except in that the more sentients the greater the likelihood that some of them would end up being super-optimally suited for survival and growth and sustainability, which then pumps up the 'L' term (lifetime).

One of my pet theories is that if you happened to have some sentients arising in relative proximity and they were especially compatible, then you'd have a synergy which might lead to faster progression and of course higher L values as well. How likely this might be isn't clear, but if many star systems have high Ne then communication potential could be underestimated due to this synergy.

At single digit numbers per Galaxy, of course this option would be vanishingly small. Even having 10e4 chances don't do much to improve this. At such low numbers in a sea of 100-300 billion stars, sadly, the Galaxy is a virtual wasteland.


[edit on 14-7-2008 by Badge01]

I'd like to see his thinking broken down into the specifics

well he would say theres 100 billion stars in the GHZ, even if he takes only G type stars it gives him 10 billion. If tech intelligence is a 1 in a million chance it still gives him 10k civs.





[edit on 15-7-2008 by yeti101]