Govt. Finds Loopholes: Illegal Missles Are Now Legal

Army "vaccum" missle hits Taliban

www.timesonline.co.uk

British forces in Afghanistan have used one of the world’s most deadly and controversial missiles to fight the Taliban.

Apache attack helicopters have fired the thermobaric weapons against fighters in buildings and caves, to create a pressure wave which sucks the air out of victims, shreds their internal organs and crushes their bodies.

(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on 6/23/2008 by Mad_Hatter]

[edit on 6/23/2008 by Mad_Hatter]

ventually, they decided to get round the ethical problems by redefining the weapons.

“We no longer accept the term thermobaric [for the AGM-114N] as there is no internationally agreed definition,” said an MoD spokesman. “We call it an enhanced blast weapon.”

The redefinition has allowed British forces to use the weapons legally, but is undermined by the publicity of their manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, which markets them as thermobaric.

When the American military bought them in 2005, President George W Bush said: “There are going to be some awfully surprised terrorists when the thermobaric Hellfire comes knocking.”

Illegal weapon? No problem! We'll just "redefine" it. All legal now!

www.timesonline.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

This quote would seem to be appropriate:

Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth. ~Mark Twain

It's utterly repulsive isn't it? Lets make sure no one has WMD's except us. Disgusting...

Wow.. cool.

So the Brit's have balls after all! I didn't know they had it in them!

This is the freakin' TALIBAN you're worried about. This is a bunch of cave dwelling terrorists who occasionally come out of their holes in the ground to raid nearby towns and enforce their psychotic Sharia law on small villages until NATO beats them back into the mountains, where they grow 99% of the world's opium supply.

These are people that set off truck bombs on crowded, public streets because one of them saw a U.S. soldier eating at a restaurant nearby. These are people that overtook a country and subjugated it to a barbaric pseudo-government, erecting mansions for themselves and leaving the people to live in squalor and anarchy.

These guys aren't the Iraqis defending their homeland, these guys aren't the disgruntled Al-Qaeda fighters who are mad because the CIA checks stopped flowing, these guys are the real deal: Cold blooded terrorists who beheaded their way to the top of the power chain in Afghanistan and now they refuse to let go and give the people of that country a chance to live.

So they got the crap blown out of them for it. Big deal, cry me a river. Oh let me guess, next you'll whine that their were "innocent people" killed. Save it. Innocent people don't live in fortified caves with AK47's taking pot-shots at anyone who tries to grow real food instead of drugs.

Or maybe "Refuges had formed a preschool and hospital in the cave..."

Give me a break!

Mattifikation,

Yes, the taliban are known terrorists, but two wrongs do not make a right.
So essentially, you're saying it's okay for us to sink to their level. You're point of view is respected, as I'm sure it's shared by many, but isn't it a tad hypocritical?

reply to post by mattifikation


I believe you're missing the point in him posting this article. You see, the issue here isn't so much that these weapons are to be used against terrorists. It's the fact that these are technically illegal, and the military found a loophole in the law by giving the weapons a different definition which allowed them to use it.

For example, if you were to have an automatic rifle, it would be illegal as well and if caught with one you would be arrested and charged regardless of you trying redefine the weapon type.

This is yet another example of a government violating international law for it's own benefits. Surprised it's the Brits this time. Although at least they're trying to make it appear legal through lawyers where as the U.S. seems to no longer even attempt to adhere or even appear to adhere to international law.


[edit on 23-6-2008 by InSanE1]

reply to post by InSanE1
I've said this before and I'll say it again a thousand times.
As long as what the goverment does is to kill bad guys and protect the good 'ol US of A and our allies so be it!

No, it's not the same in this case.

There's nothing wrong with killing people who will do absolutely nothing except try to establish tyrannical rule and commit acts of terrorism until the day they die.

NATO troops have done some bad things in Afghanistan, I'm not denying that. But blowing up some terrorists and being willing to use whatever weapon does the job best is not one of them.

Thermobarics... bad? I don't know, consider the alternatives:

Bunker busters are out of the equation unless you know the layout of the cave so you know where to drop the bomb. Otherwise, you're just making the entrance bigger. I guess there's that "Massive Ordnance Penetrator," if you're interested in blowing up half the mountain in the process.

I suppose you could send troops into the cave. Of course, that's a sophisticated mission that would need a base of operations. Easiest place to do that is a nearby village which would have to be occupied, which would mean forcing its inhabitants to let us occupy it. And that just breeds new enemies while we're busy taking out the old ones. Why bother?

The sad truth is, it's a war over there. The winner will be the one that isn't bound by the rules, every time, without fail. Why? Because it's not a board game or the evening sports, it's a war.

Originally posted by mattifikation
where they grow 99% of the world's opium supply.

Incorrect. Under the Taliban, the growing of the drug crops was almost eradicated. Since the invasion, the crops and drug production levels are at all time highs. Kinda makes you wonder just WHO is profiting.

These are people that overtook a country and subjugated it to a barbaric pseudo-government, erecting mansions for themselves and leaving the people to live in squalor and anarchy.

...and they did so with the blessing of the US and the UK who supplied them with all the money, training and weapons they needed to fight the evil Soviet invaders. Funny how things work out isn't it?

These guys aren't the Iraqis defending their homeland, these guys aren't the disgruntled Al-Qaeda fighters who are mad because the CIA checks stopped flowing, these guys are the real deal: Cold blooded terrorists who beheaded their way to the top of the power chain in Afghanistan and now they refuse to let go and give the people of that country a chance to live.

A bit like the current occupation of Iraq then really, where an installed puppet government is being used to sell the country off to large Western corporate interests, whether the people want it or not.

So they got the crap blown out of them for it. Big deal, cry me a river. Oh let me guess, next you'll whine that their were "innocent people" killed. Save it. Innocent people don't live in fortified caves with AK47's taking pot-shots at anyone who tries to grow real food instead of drugs.

Or maybe "Refuges had formed a preschool and hospital in the cave..."

Don't apply the Western societal structure to these people. They have been living in tribal fiefdoms in that region for longer than many of our countries have been in existence. Not everyone lives in easily identifiable communal villages or townships and, quite often, live in remote areas. You seem to imply that anyone innocent, killed or maimed, had it coming for simply not living as we do.... how very ignorant!

reply to post by InSanE1


No, I got the point, I just don't agree with the idea that we should adhere to the ban on thermobarics in the first place. Whatever nimrod signed that treaty was wasting their time and not considering the lives of the troops that *didn't* have to be sent in to do the missile's job.

reply to post by mattifikation


I rarely agree with this kind of response but I do agree with mattifikation on this one.

Since when do the taliban care about the welfare of other people and the humane ways of killing people? If this weapon is effective against the taliban and stops our men and women (and innocent Afghans) out there being killed then i'm all for it. As matt said, how many civilians are you aware live in the mountains and share the caves with AK-47 wielding, opium farming terrorists? This weapon will be used sparingly I imagine and under controlled conditions.

Us Brits, unlike many other nations try to focus on killing the enemy, not innocent people. The sooner the Taliban fall, the sooner we can get out. Bring on the thermobaric hellfire I say.

On a side note, didn't the U.S use Napalm in Vietnam? That is far more inhumane!

Edit - To say, i'm not attacking the U.S military just saying that there have been far more inhumane weapons used in the past by other nations and in comparison, thermobarics are nothing as the kill almost if not instantly.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by fiftyfifty]

reply to post by ObamaMomma



I swear thats the position of the Nazi's, when using zyklon to remove the imminent threat of the polish, jews and gypsies.

I thought we were better than that, and were prepared to obey law when dealing with foreign nations.

Guess Bush thought better of those principles of American society, huh?

Most people seem to be missing the point here....
The point is not the issue of whether were killing the Taliban or not..

The issue is that the government is circumventing international law through loopholes.

If this becomes okay, then what will they do next? Sure, the Taliban is their target now, but what if its your country next?

Also,

I changed the title of the post to take the focus off of the Taliban because the Taliban is not the issue here.

wow i totally love this weapon..i cant wait till the video footage of an attack filters through to me...god bless all the men who dreamed up this awesome weapon.....

Perhaps the Iranians should take note here? They can then develop Nuclear weapons but call them Pixie Dust Scattering devices. So much nicer sounding and definitely not covered by any treaties, so no laws to circumvent or break.

After all, what's good for the Goose....etc.

reply to post by fatdad


Yeah! whoop Whoop!

Of course, you and your family are never likely to be on the receiving end of a stray or improperly targeted one. Honestly, I remember a time when snuff movies were considered the height of evil.

Originally posted by Britguy

Incorrect. Under the Taliban, the growing of the drug crops was almost eradicated. Since the invasion, the crops and drug production levels are at all time highs. Kinda makes you wonder just WHO is profiting.

It's known and noted that during their rule, they wiped out drug crops. Problem is, when they could no longer make a living by being power hungry warlords, they are also the ones who brought them back. Look where the troops are, then look where the poppies are. Different places.. oh.. hmm?!

...and they did so with the blessing of the US and the UK who supplied them with all the money, training and weapons they needed to fight the evil Soviet invaders. Funny how things work out isn't it?

Actually, Al-Qaeda fought off the Soviets using US and UK assistance. There are conflicting sources which differ on whether or not the Taliban was also aided in fighting the Soviets. Either way, when the Taliban actually began its military rise to power, it was Pakistan's covert assistance that allowed it to do so.

A bit like the current occupation of Iraq then really, where an installed puppet government is being used to sell the country off to large Western corporate interests, whether the people want it or not.

No.. wait.. what? I can't figure out what that has to do with anything, so I'm gonna leave it go. This thread is about Afghanistan, not Iraq.

Don't apply the Western societal structure to these people. They have been living in tribal fiefdoms in that region for longer than many of our countries have been in existence. Not everyone lives in easily identifiable communal villages or townships and, quite often, live in remote areas. You seem to imply that anyone innocent, killed or maimed, had it coming for simply not living as we do.... how very ignorant!

No, ignorance is when you take me saying, "Terrorists hiding in caves deserve to be blown up" and assume that what I mean is, "Civilians living on farms deserve to be killed." It's not what I said and it's not what I meant. Comments like this make me see a huge parallel with ATS's "Deny Ignorance" and Bush's "War on Terrorism." Since you obviously are worried so much about the terrorists, surely you see the irony also.

And before you go calling me a hypocrite for denouncing the war on terrorism while advocating killing terrorists, please make note that I fully support the eradication of the Taliban since, unlike "terrorism," it is actually a defined and recognizable entity that you can actually wage a war against. I just know that some idiot is going to throw reading comprehension to the wind and try and call me on that one anyways... such is the way of the Internet armchair generals.

Originally posted by Mad_Hatter
Most people seem to be missing the point here....
The point is not the issue of whether were killing the Taliban or not..

The issue is that the government is circumventing international law through loopholes.

If this becomes okay, then what will they do next? Sure, the Taliban is their target now, but what if its your country next?

It's not an issue if you just recognize that it was a stupid law to begin with. Next they'll be passing a law saying "ALL AMERICANS MUST FIGHT WITH ROCKS.. everybody else can use whatever they want."

I suppose you'll piss and moan if we don't follow that one, also?