Can anyone of you debunk the debunkers?????

reply to post by tide88


OK first I see is that the france air liner fires are seems to be actually 2 different planes look at the over view see the river next to one plane and not the other?
Wheres the fence? Maybe I just can't see the river from the angle.

this was taken from your site you provided: "Air France flight 358 didn't hit a steel building at 500 miles an hour. It didn't even burn the fuel in the wings, yet its aluminum skin melted to the ground."

So now Aluminum catches fire all on it's own with a few sparks...?
Hold production stop making aluminum planes there far to dangerus.

Well i honestly can't explain the France air one i never heard of it nor do i know anything about it. but i have been fallowing 911 since day one.

And when i buddy woke me up and said America was under attack, we watched the hole thing on the news. And i will admit that i was the first among my friends to say, Well GWB is pres and he's from Texas and he believes in the death penalty so he will nuke them off the face of the earth, and good riddens. But i don't feel that way anymore. and i only hope that God can forgive me for thinking such things.

reply to post by SpaceBits

I am pretty sure that the point is that is aluminum can melt by just an electrical fire what would happen in a fire that is burning with jet fuel and other flammables. I was just replying to the poster who said a fire could not melt aluminum. Pretty sure you cannot see the fence or the river because of the angle. If you look at the tip of the plane you can mark the picture by the trees in both photos.

Originally posted by tide88
firemens quotes explained www.debunking911.com...

The empire state building fires were contained and put out within 40 minutes.

oh and here is an interesting thing on the media claiming the building fell before it actually collapsed. www.debunking911.com... go to the bottom of the page. Everyone knew the building was going to collapse sooner or later. So someone jumped the gun or got it wrong. Do you watch the news. Reporters always want to be the first to tell it. And what would be the government purpose to let these reporter know the building was going to collapse. That alone make no sense what so ever. If it is a conspiracy you would want as few people to know about it as possible. You wouldnt give info to the news stations that building 7 was going to go down. Common sense can explain that.

As for the fire fighters... well they could have be encouraged to say other wise, in order to keep there jobs.

As for your response to the news media... I like your response and I can see that as being Fact.
But it's going to take allot to convince me that a 19 camel back riders high jacked 4 airliners with box cutters and hit 3 of there targets.
Had i been on one of the planes I would have killed them because no box cutter would scare me not even if they had guns.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by SpaceBits]

Physical evidence of Explosions preceding collapse of South Tower

According to live media coverage, the time of the start of the collapses was as follows:

South Tower: CNN: Between 9:58.? - 9:59.02 - Live coverage screen clock flips to 9:59 a few seconds before collapse is noticed by reporters, flips to 10:00 approximately 58 seconds later. www.youtube.com...

WPIX Live: Between 9:58: ? - 9:59.02 - Tower visible collapsing just before clock flips to 9:59, although reporters call it “another explosion” at first, then see it was tower collapse.
www.youtube.com...

Hoboken transmission – multiple audible explosions (?) during four minutes preceding collapse of South Tower- www.mediumrecords.com...

Seismic spikes were highest at instant just before or at the time the collapse started.

Eyewitness testimony:
“[T]here was just an explosion [in the south tower]. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.”--Firefighter Richard Banaciski
“I saw a flash flash flash [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?”--Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory
“[I]t was [like a] professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'."--Paramedic Daniel Rivera

reply to post by SpaceBits


seriously!!! there no need to be rude. you just agreed that these "people" couldnt co- ordinate such an attack. so why are you being so offensive about them? have you always hated middle eastern people? even b4 the attacks? your representing your country, show some decorum and respect.
Do you ever wonder why Americans have got such a bad name worldwide?
if you believe the government lied to you, isnt it them you should be cussing?

OK, lets start with the explosions in the South Tower.

Physical evidence of Explosions preceding collapse of South Tower

According to live media coverage, the time of the start of the collapses was as follows:

South Tower: CNN: Between 9:58.? - 9:59.04 - Live coverage screen clock flips to 9:59 a few seconds before collapse is noticed by reporters, flips to 10:00 approximately 58 seconds later. www.youtube.com...

WPIX Live: Between 9:58: ? - 9:59.04 - Tower visible collapsing just before clock flips to 9:59, although reporters call it “another explosion” at first, then see it was tower collapse.
www.youtube.com...

Hoboken transmission – multiple audible explosions (?) during four minutes preceding collapse of South Tower- www.mediumrecords.com...

Seismic spikes were highest at instant just before or at the time the collapse started.

Eyewitness testimony:
“[T]here was just an explosion [in the south tower]. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.”--Firefighter Richard Banaciski
“I saw a flash flash flash [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?”--Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory
“[I]t was [like a] professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'."--Paramedic Daniel Rivera


[edit on 16-6-2008 by darkhorsebet]

reply to post by SpaceBits


The differences in cast iron and steel are pretty slight.

Cast iron has less carbon and some silica in it and is "cast" into a mold.

Hot rolled steel is just that, it's rolled on a conveyor belt and has slightly more carbon in it.

The differences aren't that extreme. I could be wrong as this is off the top of my head, but I believe I am right.

reply to post by v4vendetta


Rude? how so...? I have many many many muslim friends in Ottawa so what are you talking about?

The fact that I called them camel back riders? lol thats a joke that they(my muslim freinds) got me into saying. Second of all I have much respect for muslims, the problem with most people is they don't understand that the 2 religions muslim and christian beleive it or not these 2 religions are 99% the same.
The 1% that differs is the fact that Muslims believe Jesus was just a masiah while christians believe Jesus was not just a masiah but is also the only true son of God.

Christ = Masiah

Judge not lest ye be Judged

Originally posted by tide88
look at these pictures of this southfrance airplane. about a 1/4 of the way down on this page www.debunking911.com... I thought steel couldnt melt. You can read the whole page. Pretty much explains everything.

What does an airplane's aluminum skin melting in fire have anything to do with steel?

yet its aluminum skin melted to the ground.

Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by Maya432
scholars for 911

there are thousands and thousands of them.

the ones who don`t have the technical skills to asses
it all rely on the expert statements to make a decision.

and in my opinion there is MORE THAN ENOUGH EXPERT
statements that are made to easily convince me
that the official story is a joke.

Well, you know, I'm hardly a structural engineer myself, so I'm relying on the words of others on the subject, too.

Read the whole thing: forums.randi.org...

James Randi and his entourage going against the likes of scientist who are actually doing research such as Nobel Prize winning physicist Brian Josephson among a significant number of physicists and medical researchers, Eugene Mallove, now deceased, the US Navy article in

www.dailytech.com...

without doing any substantive research themselves is ludicrous, and even mentioning him as an expert in anything other than a magician and admittedly a scholar (he is an intelligent man, but lacks the qualifications and research to adequately challenge many of the scientists, physicians and engineers he targets IMO is pointless.
I am an open-minded skeptic, Randi is a pseudoskeptic. When we are convinced that we believe (know) something on either side of the fence and therefore nothing will change our minds, we completely end the learning process. While this approach works well for extremist believers in religions (including scientism), it fails for me. I would much rather admit that I don't know than claim I do, closing my mind to any future inquiry. As a true skeptic, I appreciate those asking intelligent questions and avoiding personal attacks (which is diversionary and only meant to derail discussion/debate about the topic itself). I know the mods do a great job at stopping this, but I sincerely wish that it wasn't necessary.

reply to post by SpaceBits


Anyone who has ever been in the military knows that there are standard prodedures that take place in the event of this type.

From a standard DUI on a base to a full blown attack on a U.S. Embassy, there are standard procedures practiced by elite proffessionals at there jobs. Embassy Fast Companies and Guards all have standard procedures to follow in misc. events.

Now, We are talking about NATIONAL SECURITY and an attack on our very own Military Headquarters. There are standard procedures that are practiced thousands of times until it is second nature. PROTOCOL!


STANDARD PROTOCOL WAS NOT IMPLEMENTED IN AN ATTACK ON OUR OWN MILITARY HEADQUARTERS. Men were told, ORDERED to stand down and guided away from the real targets.
THIS IS A BIG RED FLAG AND I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE MISSING TAPES FROM THE GAS STATION AND THE GUARD SHACK AT THE PENTAGON. UNTIL THEN I WILL NEVER BE AT PEACE WITH THE GOVT'S FINAL REPORT.

I met a former Recon Marine at an airport on the east coast back in 2003. Both of our flights were delayed for hours so we became friends very fast. He had been off of active duty for 3 years at this point so he did not look the part. I was in uniform so we just kinda started talking. Right off I knew this guy was a little different than most of the Marines I have met in person. I have met a few recon guys and watched them train but that was about it . He was very intelligent and told me a story that I will never forget. He grew up in a small town and his family owned a small business that had been founded by his grandfather in the 50's. This guy was the real deal. After he got out he went home and took over his family's business. He had nothing to hide and nothing to prove to anyone. And aside from a few things of memory, he seemed like he kept a low profile.
He started off casual and then our conversation headed off into 9-11 and that is when he said, " I was working late one night around 9pm towards the end of August 2001, when I noticed an old car backing up to front of my store. It caught my attention immediatly and I was eyes on. There had been a robbery in the area a few nights before, so I was a little edgy seeing this car back up to the door area. I noticed 5 people getting out and enter the store. I think I startled the fat one because I was standing behind a seed rack. I had just placed my weapon in the waist of my pants and I know it was visible so I think that is what startled them. Then one of the other guys pointed to the wall above my head and mumbled something in arabic and then the short one asked me in perfect english, If I had any fawalfa. By this time the hairs on the back of my neck were standing up and knew something was not right. I just pointed to the back of the store to the pasta section and said I may have something close to that in the pasta section. They then walked to the back of the store mumbled a few more words in arabic and then left quietly. On the way out the short one with glasses said thank you and he too looked up at the wall behind me as they were leaving. I felt really strange but could not put my finger on it. Then I suddenly realised what they were looking at. I had sent my mom a few pics of me and my team on the beach in swim gear and she had it blown up into a huge poster. That was what they were looking at. You would have know that was me from a mile away. To this day I still think it was these guys."
He then pulled out a crisp copy of the 9-11 hijackers, he had five of them circled in red ink. I did not know what to say at that point other than it is very possible. I asked him again what he thought, and he said " I think these guys were in my store that night and I could have stopped them If I had only know what that feeling was. I guess I will never know for certain, but I think that those guys were in my store that night."

US ARMY RET.

reply to post by SpaceBits


SpaceBits, instead of mocking a member who posted a link, then trying to tear him down, why not research the facts of Air France 358? It 'crashed' in Toronto, Canada in 2001.

I wrote 'crashed' in quotations because in fact it over-ran the runway, and broke up in the ravine as a result. While any 'substantial damage ' qualifies it as an accident, people have problems with the word 'crash'.

That has no real bearing on the on-going discussions however, just background info.

Now, SB, you had the temerity to say that the site noted by tide88 'could have been two different airplanes'....please do the research, do the 'Google', and show us the two different Air France A-340s that 'crashed' in Toronto, Canada!!

Thanks, we're waiting.

[edit on 6/16/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by jthomas
All you are doing is repeating the illogical canard that none of the other evidence that AA77 hit the Pentagon counts. It is such an illogical statement.

What you are saying is that none of the physical evidence counts. None of the eyewitnesses counts. None of the implications of claiming AA77 did not hit the Pentagon counts!

You're just saying that until and unless a video showing AA77 hitting the Pentagon surfaces, that the rest of the evidence does not count.

I think you need to think through exactly what the implications of your statement are and will soon realize that any video is meaningless in establishing that AA77 hit the Pentagon.

But then, the 9/11 Truth Movement wants you to believe you need that video. That way, it gets to ignore the evidence it can't refute. And if it turns out that NO video actually shows the crash, the "movement" gets to continue to claim that there is "no" evidence that it hit.

Do you really want to believe what the 9/11 Truth Movement wants you to believe?

You can't ignore how the pentagon has only released two videos of the event and neither one show a plane hitting.

There was a lot of cameras outside the pentagon itself that filmed the entire thing. Then you have the ones from surrounding businesses that they confiscated directly after the event.

If there was nothing to hide, they would have released all those tapes by now and not just two videos that show nothing but a fireball.

THAT is what YOU PEOPLE keep ignoring

Originally posted by carole9999
When we are convinced that we believe (know) something on either side of the fence and therefore nothing will change our minds, we completely end the learning process. While this approach works well for extremist believers in religions (including scientism), it fails for me. I would much rather admit that I don't know than claim I do, closing my mind to any future inquiry.

I'd like to defend those of us who've made a serious effort to fully investigate 9/11. Not many have the time or inclination to do so, but I spent over six months reading everything I could find because I felt it was important to know the truth about a tragedy that's being used as an excuse for wholesale changes in our lives, such as waging endless war and the losses of freedoms, privacy and civil liberties.

What might sound closed-minded and extremist to some is actually confidence in our knowledge and perhaps a feeling of frustration towards those who remain uninformed, fearful, gullible to government/corporate/media propaganda and/or who don't understand the stakes involved. Finding a debunking site that sounds reasonable and gives you the answers you want to hear may soothe the anxious soul, but the U.S. government's actions, or should I say inactions, speak much louder than words. Actually, it's a conspiracy that encompasses the entire globe. Britain's 7/7 was no different. Neither were the Moscow apartment bombings. Or the Reichstag fire. Or the burning of Rome. After an in-depth investigation of 9/11, the evidence of government complicity becomes so overwhelming that there's no other reasonable conclusion. This is tough for many to swallow. After all, we're supposed to be the good guys. How could evil so totally encompass a country's government that even our "free" media is unwilling or unable to examine a monumental historic event where so many questions remain unanswered and the official "facts" are widely doubted?

It's only after many more hours of research that these questions can be answered. And frankly, I don't recommend taking that many red pills. Once you start digging, you'll find the rabbit hole never ends. Most of what you think you know is a twisted matrix of lies and misinformation. Do you think fluoride is good for your teeth, vaccines prevent disease, or 19 Arabs with box cutters outsmarted a country that spends more on "defense" than the rest of the world combined? As J. Edgar Hoover said, "the individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."

Better to enjoy life unless you're really committed to knowing the truth. Just be careful that you can handle that truth, or you may end up committed.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


GF....do you know what a 'boxcutter' actually looks like? It isn't the Stanley Utility Knife you buy today at the Home Depot.

This was a knife used in grocery stores, to cut down the boxes that held the product, after they finished stocking the shelves. It is roughtly 4 1/2 inches in length, one half inch wide, and about 1/8th of an inch thick (that's the plastic handle). The blades were scored, and when they got dull, you just broke them off (they were about the size of your thumnail)

THIS is the 'boxcutter' that is being referred to. This could very easily have been slipped through the X-Ray machines, back in 2001. In fact, any knife of three and one half inches or less length WAS ALLOWED pre 9/11!!!!!!

Let me repeat....a KNIFE of three and one half inches or less was ALLOWED!!!!!! Pre 9/11.

Scissors were allowed, as well. As long as they complied with the length restriction.....but, lax security......focusing on bombs and guns, would they notice something as innocent as a short blade, when there were already cutlery ON BOARD the airplane anyway!!!! In the galleys!!!

And corkscrews?? EVERY Flight Attendant at my airline was required to carry a personal corkscrew....along with a cockpit key!!!!

That was then, of course.....we will never be taken by surprise again, that's why they (the camel jockeys) did four at once, knowing there would never be another chance.

reply to post by weedwhacker

OK Mr. Weedwacker, you win.

It was 19 Arabs with box cutters who didn't appear on any airline passenger manifest or government autopsy report, not the five foreign intelligence dewds arrested on 9/11 with circled maps of the WTC towers and phony passports, driving vans packed with "tons of explosives," who later admitted they were sent to "document the event."

Carry on...

reply to post by GoldenFleece


No, GF.....I don't win. Neither of us do.

We need to verify all claims, involving passenger records for those flights, and everything else you mentioned. You see, there is corroborating DNA evidence, if you look for it, from all four accident sites. The WTC site was, understandably, harder to collect data from. Also, the DFDRs and CVRs from the WTC were simply unrecoverable....they were destroyed beyond any recognition.

Alternatively, the AAL77 and UAL93 DVDRs and CVRs were found, and could be read out. That info is available.....I have been provided a link, from an official NTSB report, of certain portions of those recordings. Others, through FOIA requests, have other flight data trace information.

Try looking it up, please.

I try to type quickly, and just make mistakes, then I have to come back and correct my typos.

What I have, and printed up, is the NTSB report of the Navigational Radio and AutoPilot functions of AAL77 and UAL93. As an airline pilot, I can interpret what these reports show. It seems, often in these 9/11 debates, we get amateurs who really do not know what they are talking about, or get convinced by very inaccurate "laymen" who wish to perpetuate a half-truth, or sometimes even an out-right lie....not always on purpose, but just due to a lack of full understanding.

[edit on 6/17/0808 by weedwhacker]

[edit on 6/17/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by alienstar
What makes you think that everyone on here knows what they are talking about?They aren't all experts.Some people don't even have a clue what they need to look for to debunk.This is why 9/11 is a conspiracy in the first place.

You mean all those expert opinions are just armchair opinions. Well knock me over with a feather. And not just 9/11 either.........

In my opinion people choose to read/cherrypick whatever information supports their belief system rather than not having a clue. That is exceptionally frustrating.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by GoldenFleece

 

Try looking it up, please.

Believe me, I have. More than you could imagine. Instead of spending the rest of the night posting links and quotes to prove it, I think it's better that people do their own research.

Funny you should mention DFDRs and CVRs though. What motivated me to start looking into 9/11 was a book written by a couple of FDNY firefighters who organized the ATVs that ferried rescue workers and supplies to and from Ground Zero.

When I received the book, a page was bookmarked with "deception dollars" that were covered with 9/11 internet truth sites. The bookmarked page contained a detailed description of the firefighters recovering three of the four black boxes and turning them over to the FBI. Instead of being appreciative, the FBI told them to keep their mouths shut. The firefighters asked if the FBI could give them a good reason why they should and said they weren't given any. I thought it was strange that all firefighters were put under a federal gag order. What do they know that the government doesn't want us to find out?

So your assertion that the DFDRs and CVRs from the WTC were destroyed beyond any recognition and simply unrecoverable is false. Even the NTSB admitted to briefly having them in their possession, but deferred all other questions to the FBI.

FBI Tells 911 Rescue Worker To 'Shut Up' Over Finding Airplane 'Black Boxes'
By Greg Szymanski
4-17-5

Two ground zero workers go public about finding cockpit and flight data recorders from Flight 11 and 175. Government claims 'black boxes' from the doomed 911 flights were never found. 911 Commission ignores information and fails to interview rescue workers.

A 911 rescue worker said this week he was told by FBI agents to "keep his mouth shut" about one of the "black boxes" found at ground zero, contradicting the official story that none of the flight and cockpit data recorders were ever recovered in the WTC wreckage.

Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau agents a short time after he and his partner Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New York firefighter, found three of the four "black boxes" among the WTC rubble before January 2002.

The pair first claimed to find the data recorders in an August 2003 book entitled "Behind The Scene: Ground Zero" when DeMasi said the "black boxes" were found while he traversed ground zero in his ATV with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

"They confronted me and told me to not say anything," recalls Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi's ATV. "I said give me a good reason? When they couldn't, I told them I wouldn't shut up about it."

"Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It's the truth and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have."

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 911 rescue workers to see the black boxes. He said there were several other witnesses and knows first hand they have been silenced by federal agents...

If you're a real airline pilot, you'd know how rare it is not to retrieve the black boxes after an accident or find the black box data to be unrecoverable. It's very rare, almost unheard of.

Anyway, it seems you're trying to sucker me into a debate after declaring yourself an expert witness on flight data recorders. But you're posting false information, so your "expertise" is as suspect as the FBI investigators who insisted that TWA 800 crashed as a result of an undetermined center fuel tank explosion, despite the hundreds of credible witnesses who saw a missile rise up from the ocean off the east coast and impact the plane.




[edit on 17-6-2008 by GoldenFleece]

There is one problem...period.
They won't show us the tapes.
That would end it all.
Wake up, if you think we haven't been lied too...
JFK???
are you telling me that that wasn't an inside job???