Fight Club Pub.

Originally posted by Ian McLean
I had a coworker once who got yelled at, quite nastily, for holding a door open for a woman... she apparently found it offensively sexist.

It's a fine line with some people.

I've never had a problem treating a lady like a lady, and engaging in what some would call chivalry.

What gets me though is when those things are simply expected. At that point, it's no longer appreciated when you do those things, but it sure as hell is condemned when you don't. Too many different types of people out there to have a standard for chivalry anymore.

Oh well, my wife and I get along fine and I treat her like a queen. Thank god I never have to date again.

page flip for everyone.

Originally posted by nyk537
I've never had a problem treating a lady like a lady

Now, I agree with you, but realize that that statement would get you in quite a bit of hot water in some circles. Something about imposing your archaic model of sexist gender-roles unthinkingly upon others, in order to affirm chauvinist biases.

It really makes me sad when people rage against small politeness-motivated actions, like holding the door for someone. I think one of the best metrics of the decline of a society or culture is the evaporation of common manners, and the expectation of them.

reply to post by Ian McLean


In my experience if a woman is secure in herself and her femininity there's no issue.

reply to post by Ian McLean


I fully agree.

I think the expectation of simple manners is what has led to their decline.

Before, if you held a door open for someone or any other simple manners thing, you may have received a "thank you". I don't think a lot of people even know what thank you means anymore.

That and the scenario in which you described where some perceive these simple manners as threatening or imposing.



Geeze, what a frustrating topic of discussion.

reply to post by Heike


nicht so gut heike
und dir?


oh some men even show different faces and cores to women, depending on the relationship they have or had had

reply to post by nyk537


I think part of it also is that we've become detached from our surroundings, and especially from the people around us. We don't treat people as people anymore unless we expect to have direct interaction with them.

The thing I'm guilty of, is that I seem to be incapable of saying "you're welcome." I just can't make myself do it, I always say "no problem."

reply to post by americandingbat


I also don't think children are being raised with these manners anymore in many cases. Please and thank you have gone out the window, and been replaced with feelings of entitlement.

reply to post by nyk537


On a little tangent, waiting in lines (at stores, coffee shops, etc) can be great fun. A few times, I've been in line, and the woman behind me has looked harried, stressed, etc., and I've politely mentioned that she can go ahead of me in line, since I'm not in any hurry. It's some amazing instant karma - their faces light up just beautifully, at the thought that someone they don't even know is being polite to them for no reason.

That kind of small-change, that politeness and consideration gives a society, is one of the most powerful forces driving sociology, in my opinion.

Lines can be fun for other reasons, too. One of my pet peeves is people talking loudly on their cell phones while standing in line. I think it's rude. When the person in front or behind me in line does that, I find that a wonderful opportunity to strike up a conversation with the person on the other side of them - the topic? What the person on the cell-phone is discussing! "Oh, I need to finish my holiday shopping, too! Do you wait until the last minute, too?" or "Hey, what's that store she's talking about? Have you ever been there?" It really makes the point to them that public is public.

Originally posted by Ian McLean
It really makes the point to them that public is public.

Yes, yes it does. On that same note, is there anything more annoying that those Nextel walkie talkie phones? Besides perhaps the people who use them in public?

(apologies in advance to any fighter currently using a Nextel walkie talkie phone)

reply to post by nyk537

in some way i love that chivalry stuff
if the guy acting like that is able to understand that a woman is capable of thinking and making own deciscions.

reply to post by Ian McLean

this makes me bang my head at the wall.
how stupid or ignorant can one woman be?
dear me

first forcing every guy with this bad manners not to act properly anymore and after that tabula rasa complaining i guess.

i don.t want chivalry to die if that means i have to carry all suitcases without any help

reply to post by nyk537

just holding the door for me and i will highly appreciat that
what i hate is when a guy wants to help me with my coat when i myself haven.t yet checked it, or if that leaves me with a bag stuffed between my legs which looks awesome


btw. i don.t have a problem if a girl is holding the door for a guy
reply to post by nyk537


this might depend on the parents
my son is fully capable to say good morning, good bye, you are welcome and thank you.


what i really really hate when i say thank you, some germans won.t say: you are welcome, they say: not for this. (nicht dafür) which gives me a feeling that my thank isn.t really welcome.

you are right people tend to forget that they are dealing with people
and people are afraid to ask for help and people are afraid to help because they might get hit.

edit:
to my experiences american and british men act more like gentlemen as german men.

[edit on 8-12-2008 by orange-light]

Chivalry...I live with a woman who loves to be spoiled...I won't say whether or not I accomadate...

reply to post by MemoryShock


I just can't see you denying the requests of a lady MS.

Originally posted by nyk537
I just can't see you denying the requests of a lady MS.

Sometimes they are demands...

-Sighs-

She puts up with my incessant and horrible jokes so it works out...

[edit on 8-12-2008 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by MemoryShock

She puts up with my incessant and horrible jokes so it works out...

Yet we do the same and get nothing.

Holding a door is just that. Manners and courtesy. It doesn't have to be a woman. Maybe it's a dude that's in a hurry and you aren't. "After you man." If someone gets bent out of shape because of it, screw em. I've got better things to think about than someone being pissed off about courtesy.

reply to post by MemoryShock


My wife puts up with more than she should probably, but that's why I love her. Some proper manners are the least I can do.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Check is in the mail. I paid the extra couple of bucks to overnight it...

Yes Thank you. The UPS Guy came knocking on my door this morning at 6am - did you pay the Early Bird Fee too? You're secret is safe with me.

I agree with Intrepid. My parents taught me to be courteous to everyone and to be polite to everyone. I hold the door if I'm in front of someone, and I say thank you, if someone holds it for me. I don't do a sex-check first and wonder "Hmm I wonder if this guy is gonna get offended..." I just open the door.

- Carrot

I'm often called a romantic because my moral code is still that of a early 20th century "Gentleman". It wears me down sometimes. But at the end of the day, I don't feel overly constructed nor old-fashioned. It isn't a question of sexism, it is more a question of perceived sexism. I was educated this way, and try as I might, I could not shake it (nor would I).

Despite this, it's amazing how many people will try and flaunt their mental shortcuts to my face, and point out the flaws in the design. Believing that their "Newspeak" is exempt from a culture construct, and are somehow more human than I am.

Yuk.


[edit on 8-12-2008 by Oscitate]

reply to post by Oscitate


Agreed.

Lack of manners was a punishable offense in my home growing up, especially in regards to the ladies. That kind of upbringing has stuck with me, although I've grown up and gone from doing those types of things because I should, to doing them because I want to.