Masons not a secret society

Ok. How about I say that your evidence is far too ambiguous?

Let's say that I state that the Boy Scout group is based on an old Red Indian club for young braves.

Here I'll pull any old link out for you - www.y-indianguides.com...

Boy Scouts like singing around camp fires and they also learn field craft. There are also numerous references to Native American traditions within their association. But does that similarity mean that their movement was founded on old Red Indian tradition? Of course it doesn't. It isn't proof.

By the way: The Boy Scout movement was founded by Baden Powell after he served in the British Army in the Boer War, where he first witnessed African military scouts engaged in outdoor skills. No Native ?Americans in sight!!!

Originally posted by Leveller
Ok. How about I say that your evidence is far too ambiguous?

Let's say that I state that the Boy Scout group is based on an old Red Indian club for young braves.

Here I'll pull any old link out for you - www.y-indianguides.com...

Boy Scouts like singing around camp fires and they also learn field craft. There are also numerous references to Native American traditions within their association. But does that similarity mean that their movement was founded on old Red Indian tradition? Of course it doesn't. It isn't proof.

By the way: The Boy Scout movement was founded by Baden Powell after he served in the British Army in the Boer War, where he first witnessed African military scouts engaged in outdoor skills. No Native ?Americans in sight!!!

What does that mean? All Native Americans look like what? There were so-called African already native to the land so they are just as much "native" as what is know as Indian. Secondly, I only can tell you what I researched and conversed with YOUR brothers about. If you're talking about proof I 'm sorry if it too ambiguous for you, but information is like that. That is why people research. Do you know how many times things have come to light that were thought stupid or impossible? If you can't comprehend that then maybe you need to lokk at yourself as sometimes we take things so personall with a closed mind as it blinds us as it obviously has done to you.

Your argument seems to be going around in circles.
All you seem to be able to give is a few suppositions followed by accusations that if they aren't believed then we are too close minded.

There's a big difference between having an open mind and being gullible to any old claptrap.

Originally posted by GoddessSekhmet
Well the thing about the Temple is that thye are trying to rebuild it but the the Muslum dome is there. What better why to get rid of it then say have a war on Islam? Eventually it will happen the Jews have been pushing to have it rebiult for years.

Exactly who is trying to rebuild the Temple? Where are you getting this information? Sorry, but I ain�t buyin�.

I order of the Golden Dawn a lot older then the books Allestier Crowly wrote about. They date back to 1500's. They were part of an Alchemist group. Now the Rosecrusians were alot older, I am aware of that. there are records of them back as far as 950 ad from what I have read maybe even older. The two groups are strangly similar and the Illuminati never ended, just became more hidden. There are so many things that point to their exisitence that it can't be denied. But what is weird about the Illuminati is that they recruit from many places but I think rich and powerful is a prerequist.

There are so many errors in that post that I honestly don�t even know where to start. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was founded in the 1880�s by Macgregor Mathers and Kenneth Mackenzie as a spin-off of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society of England. The first Golden Dawn Temple was the Isis-Urania Temple of London, which met in Mark Masons Hall.
There is no evidence that any Rosicrucian Society existed prior to the 17th century.
There was absolutely no similarity between the Rosicrucians and the Illuminati. The Rosicrucians were mystics and alchemists. The Illuminati were political rebels who wanted to overthrow the Bavarian government. The Rosicrucians were a spiritual movement, the Illuminati was a political one.
Contrary to your statement, the Illuminati was disbanded by its leader, Adam Weishaupt, when he was forced into exile. Also contrary to your statement, none of the Illuminati�s members were rich and powerful. They were revolutionaries who were being oppressed by the Bavarian dictatorship, and many of the Illuminati�s members became members because they were tired of starving, and watching their children starve. They were ready to fight back.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Well if you say you are ignorant to the degrees how can you say somebody is on crack? That makes no sense. I'm not a Mason but am in a different circle but work with Mason to acheive many good things that I hope we will see in our lifetime.

I already apologized about the crack comment, it only made me look bad, and did nothing to further the discussion. I just want you to explain how a person can have the "essence of a Masonic degree" in their DNA. What do you mean by that exactly? Anything any of you Masons can tell me that can shed some light on what he's talking about (or dispute it) would be appreciated.

I mean not that the ritual itself is in a persons blood, but the consciousness and awakening of the third eye or mind. Becoming a master mason is just a microcosm of the larger scale of human nature evolving to a higher state. Do you understand? Hiram Abiff who is centralized in these first degrees was an example of not just man falling but an entire people. Just like when Masons say they are rebuilding the Temple of Solomon, it is not necessarily a building, but a building of the mind and sprit so that man can evolve into a higher state of being. And sadly with all of today's events it doesn't seem to be happening enough. We are so desensitized by the images and experiences we face that we often don't work on ourselves enough. I'm hoping the next few months that a renewed energy can change alot of the misdirection of our society. Maybe essence wasn't the right term but I tried to phrase it the best way I know how. I apologize if I offended anyone as this was not my intention.

Originally posted by MOOR45
I mean not that the ritual itself is in a persons blood, but the consciousness and awakening of the third eye or mind. Becoming a master mason is just a microcosm of the larger scale of human nature evolving to a higher state. Do you understand?

Yes, thank you for clarifying that for me, and I again apologize for my previous comment.

Hey bro no problem. We're all are searching for answers.

Originally posted by Leveller
Your argument seems to be going around in circles.
All you seem to be able to give is a few suppositions followed by accusations that if they aren't believed then we are too close minded.

There's a big difference between having an open mind and being gullible to any old claptrap.

No accusations have been made. And when you say any old clap trap, how about at least reading some of the material (besides Holy) that I mentioned in this posts. I have several more. It's ignorant to tell me I am going in circles when I try to explain myself as much as possible. Then I give you resources you say it's trash b/c I mention one book. Come on. I'm not trying to convince you or any other Mason. Believe what you want. I'm just participating info I learned and am sharing. You're just gonna have to deal with it. People thought the archaeologist were crazy when they said they found the Dead Sea Scrolls and there was no older text. Now critics have long since backpeddled. I dont care who you are, WE and I mean we dont know it all. You're no exception member or not.

You haven't given one single link to back up your claim nor have you referenced anything but "Holy Blood and the Holy Grail". Yet you claim you have given evidence.
I beg to differ. You have given an opinion. Not evidence.

How about giving us something that backs up your theory instead of just claiming that those who disagree with it are ignorant or close-minded?

I see in many places that you have stated that you have studied the subject. I also see in many places that you have claimed to given the evidence and references here, yet I do not see it. If you've studied, you should be able to give us something that we can use to corroborate or deny your theory.

princehall.info...

"In 1993 FBI report has surfaced calling the group a ''front for a wide range of criminal activity, including arson, welfare fraud and extortion.'' They have even taken on the name "Moor" (United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors) to attract even those who were followers of the Moorish Science Temple whose founder was Noble Drew Ali in 1913. He has taken teachings from many organizations and religious sects and formulated a pot of mixed doctrines to confuse further those who are already confused enough in their world of dependent thinking. This man has literally admitted in using tactics in drawing weak minded people explain in one of his web pages saying "I diligently treaded the streets of New York and the surrounding areas as I propagated Sufi Islam. I was blessed with the "gift of gab" and combined with a sense of humor and charisma that draws people of all walks of life to me."
Mr. York with his mixed doctrine has now established his own Nuwaupian Grand Lodge AF&AM International and his own Shrine Temple Al Mahdi No. 19, and has attracted hundreds of poor Black Souls in making them think that they have some superior Freemasonry that was handed down to him by Noble beings in Egypt. Mr. York on top of that has his own music studio for Nuwaubian Nation of Moors to rap and chant about his teachings."

[edit on 18-6-2004 by Leveller]

I was talking to you specifically. And that link doesn't hurt my feelings. Learn to read carefully and you would see I answered that I am not afiiliated with Dr. York. Being a moor is not an organization. And your report I am glad to say is incorrect. But I guess your trying to imply this is what background the Moorish Science Temple is about which doesnt operate in full force now any. Nuwabian Moors are a sect all until their own. The MSTA is not a temple for want to be Masons. There are many Moorish Lodges approved by the Grand Lodge of England as a matter of fact. So yes you are ignorant as I provided more than on piece of literature. You want more, just because you are too lazy. I only gave you what I had in brief. But nonetheless you're still not adding anything to the conversation as usual. You dont have to agree because making you happy is not my concern. Oh and Noble Drew Ali was a Mason initiated in Egypt. So you are disrespecting you're own "brother". Seems like you dont understand the meaning. Grow up.

"Backwards from the future, Forwards from the past"

I just posted the link. Nothing more.
I suggest you give it a rest with the insults.

Well as far as the Temple Of Solomon is concerned, the Jewish and other archeologists have excavated underground near the Dome and have found what is believed to be the corner stone of the temple as it used to stand. This happened like 6 years ago that I heard about that. Then with more Palestinian presence in the area they were forced to stop digging. Now exactly who wants to rebuild the temple are 3 groups of people. There are the Jews, the Jesuits, and the Freemasons. The Jewish people want it for obvious reasons; the Jesuits want it to reinstate the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in its rightful place, the holy land. Where they can have the pope, be it the black pope mind you (the elected leader of the Jesuits), that will rule with supreme control over the whole world under the guise of Catholicism. Isn�t it funny how all the nations ruled by England have taken the right to bear arms away. You are now 45% time more likely to get mugged in London then New York City!!!

So the idea behind the Jesuits is to have everyone disarmed, disillusioned, and uninformed, and under complete control of the church. To me it sounded like they just want the Dark Ages back. Now if they are for all that that means you can make an educated guess that they don�t like any of the ancient rites groups regardless of their name. These psudeo-priest don�t want freedom period. And these societies encourage a higher understanding of nature in general.

And as far as the reasons for the Freemasons wanting it I really am not clear on that part. The speculation I have heard is that since alchemy and astrology are basics of Freemasons and the ancient teachings are very sacred to them, the Qabbala is one of those teaching and it is viewed as the sacred teachings that help interoperate the Holy Torah. How all that comes into play I have not figured out yet. I suspect that since the Temple is a very important to the Jewish community there are some connections there.

Now I do concede that only a few masons are corrupt and saying all freemasons are evil is a stereotype, I am not into stereotyping people, since I too am interested in the higher knowledge of nature, but being a woman I don�t have many choices for groups to be involved in. I also am an atheist so getting in to a religious thing is not my cup of tea. But I do feel there are some men in the upper ranks of the society that use their position of power for things they should not, just as most humans would do if given power. Of the secret societies the masons are most likely the best of the bunch.

Now as far as the Illuminati they were just as much entrenched in secrecy and ancient rites as well. Where do you think we get a lot of the symbols we have today in the U.S.
The problem is they are not as organized, they belong to many different groups and the hood of the Illuminati is just the meeting place. These men are not in it for the �good of man� as masons say they are. Illuminati are in it for themselves, for power and money. They may have rites and what not but I don�t think most of the books written on them are very close to the truth. I believe there are ties with the Bilderberg meetings, maybe even wars but there is not enough to support any assumptions on this group.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
I'm sorry to hear that your Great-Grandfather was a bigot and a fool. Still, we need not hold to the presumption of these things being hereditary, do we?

The Scottish Rite is from France, not Scotland. Sorry. Close, but no cigar.

Now as far as the comment on my great grandfather, I feel it was unnecessary, you have no clue he was bigoted and so in turn have no right to judge. His statements I believe were a fathers protective place for his daughters at the time and I think he may have had knowledge of some corruptions in the Masonry and that is where his feelings came from. It was also 1930�s and everyone had suspicions about everything. Now what I was talking about is the connection I had read about with the Stuart clan in Scotland since I am related to them through my paternal grandmothers side. It was interesting to me how many contradictions there are to the story so I find they have to be taken with a grain of salt and deduced on your own. My belief is that they did originate in Scotland and England, but the idea was brought around to everyone through France. Here are a few of the story I have found on the subject:
1. "King James VI of Scotland (also later James I of England) was the only child of Mary Queen of Scots and the first king to rule both England and Scotland. He was also the first king known to be a Freemason, being initiated into the Lodge of Scots and Perth in 1601 at the age of thirty five."
"He made a leading Mason by the name of William Schaw his General Warden of the Craft and instructed him to improve the entire structure of Masonry. Schaw started this major project on 28 December 1598 when he issued 'The statues and ordinances to be observed by all the master maissouns within this realme,' signing himself as 'the General Warden of the said craft'."
- Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus
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2. They were also deeply involved in Freemasonry, particularly Scottish Rite Freemasonry, believed to have been inherited from the rituals of the Stuart dynasty. This brand of the Craft included many more degrees than regular �York Rite� masonry, which of course meant that it contained greater, deeper and more voluminous secrets. These mysteries were supposedly derived from Scotland, and from there, some even older source. The Scottish Rite rituals included more overtly �occult� material - Hermetic, cabalistic, Rosicrucian and alchemical material - and initiates were taught specifics about the origin and history of their organizations� practices. Furthermore, as Holy Blood, Holy Grail blatantly states, �It is probable that Scottish Rite Freemasonry was originally promulgated, if not indeed devised, by Charles Radclyffe.� Charles also founded the first European Masonic lodge in Paris. He was shortly thereafter declared �grand master of all French lodges�, which he remained for at least a decade more.
3. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, as we know it today, had its origins on the continent of Europe. Its immediate predecessor, known as The Order of the Royal Secret, consisted of 25 Degrees under the Constitutions of 1762. Masonic tradition maintains that Lodges of this Rite, transmitted from Bordeaux in France through the West Indies to the American mainland, were established at New Orleans, Louisiana, in 1763; at Albany, New York, in 1767; at Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1781-82; and at Charleston, South Carolina, in 1783.

4. The Stewart Kings while in Britain and later while in exile were the very forefront of the Scottish Rite Freemasonry. The Scottish Rite was founded on the most ancient of all arcane knowledge and Universal Law. Their Breton heritage was closely allied to the noble families of Boulogne and Jerusalem. This background was largely Templar inspired.

5. �The seminal moment seems to be an oration delivered to a French Lodge on December 26, 1736, by the Chevalier Michael Andrew Ramsay, a Scotsman serving as the Grand Orator of the Grand Lodge of France. This Masonic lecture, known to history as "Ramsay's Oration," embellished upon existing traditions by stating that the founders of Freemasonry were Crusader knights who, in emulation of the ancient Israelites, handled "the trowel and mortar with one hand," while in the other, "they held the sword and buckler."� Pete Normand, 33�



[edit on 19-6-2004 by GoddessSekhmet]

[edit on 19-6-2004 by GoddessSekhmet]