Homosexuality- Whats good about it...

"A Nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious, but cannot survive an treason from within. An Enemy at the Gates is less formidable. For he is known and carries his banner openly, but the traitor moves with in the gate freely, sly whispers, rustling thru the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the Traitor appears not a traitor, he speaks in accents familiar to his victims. He wears their face and arguments. He appeals to the baseness in the hearts of all men. He rots a soul of a nation. He works secretly, and unknown in the night to ruin the pillars of the City. He infects the body politic so it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear." Marcus Tulluius Cicero -Roman Orator - 42BC


Now, onto the issue of Homosexuality.


A few questions about Homosexuality:

1. Name one healthy aspect of Homosexuality?

2.Explain why every state in the Union HAS voted down same-sex marriage?

3. Name what civilization has embraced homosexuality as the norm, and what happen to that society?

4. Why did society once criminalize sodamy?



This thread is a reaction to the ruling in the California court system. Where 4 judges overturned the Vote of the people of California, and override the constitution in the process.

This is why I have the quote from Cicero in the beginning, ill highlight a point in it.

"He rots a soul of a nation. He works secretly, and unknown in the night to ruin the pillars of the City." --- How does that relate to today... These 4 judges, have stolen the vote of the people, and have altered the 'pillars of our city'. In our case, our city is out state... and the soul of this nation has been rotting from the inside. Now one of the main pillars of our society and state have been Broken.

" An Enemy at the Gates is less formidable. For he is known and carries his banner openly, but the traitor moves with in the gate freely, sly whispers, rustling thru the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. " --- America has no enemy at the gate, our country is too powerful to fall to a foreign invasion... but America has many enemies within... Now the enemy within has changed the fundamental basis of American Family


Throughout the course of time, the corruptness, and deviance in politics has not change, not for thousands of year, only the means in which the tyrants force their will has changed.


[edit on 5/25/2008 by TKainZero]

I'm afraid I have (arguably) better things to do than cold, hard research to answer your queries, and I'm usually uncomfortable making replies without some shred of 'cite-able' evidence backing me up, but I'd like to go ahead and answer a few. It's quite obvious that you're homophobic, so I'm sure you won't object to groundless, possibly biased conjecturing .

1. Now, I know this is a poor debate strategy, but in response to your first question I'd like you to name one healthy aspect of heterosexuality. If it doesn't have to do with making babies with a penis/vagina combo, chances are the same goes for homosexuals. What's so unhealthy about love?

2. To tell you the truth, I'm a firm believer that this is because straight people think gay people are 'icky'. I'm straight, and I'm certainly not homophobic or anti-gay-rights, but I don't like thinking about what gay men do in a bedroom. That, and some 'sanctity of marriage' BS that I'm not quite clear on, but I'm sure has to do with our nation's 'good Christian foundation'.

3. This is the one that I can't begin to answer, and I don't feel like researching it right now. I'm sure they were struck by lightning.

4. Why did society once criminalize sodomy? See #2.

Reading through the rest of your post, it would appear you have some kind of personal vendetta against homosexuals. Would you please share with us why you think gays are...infiltrating America's government? I just can't see your logic.

Originally posted by TKainZero
1. Name one healthy aspect of Homosexuality?

loving someone helps you mental and emotional health. but i would assume its the same for hetero relationships as well

2.Explain why every state in the Union HAS voted down same-sex marriage?

im taking a wild stab at the dark here, because more people voted nay than yea?

3. Name what civilization has embraced homosexuality as the norm, and what happen to that society?

name a civilization that hasnt... even the church has embraced it, not openly of course

4. Why did society once criminalize sodamy?

which society? jewish?

One thing that's great about homosexuality. If you find a partner your approximate size, you practically double your wardrobe. Can't say that about heterosexual couples.

I realise that my questions my have not been worded well enough for you to understand.

1. Name one healthy aspect of Homosexuality, exclusive to homosexual couples?

2. Explain why every state in the Union HAS voted down same-sex marriage?

3. Name what civilization has OPENLY embraced homosexuality as the norm, and what happen to that society?

4. Historicaly why did societies once criminalize sodamy?


so, mabye unlike previous posts, you will answer these questions with your mind and thinking, and not just a gut reaction.

The Anyonomous poster bage a better response then you 2 memebrs...
to anyonmous,

1. but in response to your first question I'd like you to name one healthy aspect of heterosexuality. If it doesn't have to do with making babies with a penis/vagina combo,

The priniciple, and most basic, and oldest tradition, is making babies. The creation of more offspring and an increase in genetic varity for the succes of the species. This is singley the most important thing for a species.

chances are the same goes for homosexuals. What's so unhealthy about love?

There is nothing wroung with love, people can love any thing. People, pets, things... you can love what you want... doesnt mean you should make love to it... if you catch my drift.

One thing that's great about homosexuality. If you find a partner your approximate size, you practically double your wardrobe. Can't say that about heterosexual couples.

That is a straight up moronic reply/argument... because i have a dude friend who marrieed a girl and they were both about 5'4 and it doulbed thier shoes, tee-shirts, and everything esle... so please... i apeaciated that you have at least thought about trying to think, but next time please say somethin in your response that has some meaning...



If you cannot surrender your opinion why trying to understand and learn, then why are you even here.


And to the people, who either have no opinion, or are incapable of thinking, and answering a challening question.

I know i am not asking you an easy yes or no question, i know i am not throwing you a soft-ball that you can just get all emotionaly and happy about, i am asking you to look into the real issues of the topic.

I understand how that could be a hard thing your some of you. You would rather just give someone a star for making a little joke, or writing a statement that was just your opinion.

But if cannot search for the truth, just stop. Go live in you fantasy world, where your opinion, is the only ruling of truth.


If you want to be a homosexual, that is your choice, and it is your right for you to do what you want. But there are things that go along with the homosexxual choice:
1. Homosexual couples CANNOT sexualy reproduce.
2. Being a homosexual is a selfish choice.

At this point you are probaly freaking out, calm down keep reading.

Being homo sexual IS a very selfish choice. There is a reason that you are here on this earth. EVERY person here on this earth was fathered by a man, and mothered by a woman. You, going back THRUOGH ALL OF TIME have had a mother and a father. Your bloodline, your genes. 1000's of years.

And the choice of being a homosexual, of being in a homosexual relationship, you stop the line. You have made that choice, you have made the choice that because you are happy, you can just do what you want.

That is a truely amazing thing. When you realise the spectrum of the decision.

The history of the decision. No children means no genes get passed on, the bloodlone stops.

I mean, this is a free country, you are intitled to your own choices and your own beliefs. and i am entieled to my rights, i can say what i want, i can ask you the tough questions that you dont want to think about.

If i am coming off as an homophob, then you are reading too much into what im saying. I have no problem with homosexuals, i have had sevarl MALE and several FEMALE friends who have been homosexuals or bisexual...

I ask you to think, and to think about what you belive in.

I got to go, its PARTY TIME... but i will finnish my post at some point....

reply to post by TKainZero


wow, alittle harsh

What makes you so sure that Homosexuality is a choice? Are you saying then that Heterosexuality is also a choice and that a person is confronted with this fork in the road at sometime in their lives? When did you choose to be Heterosexual instead of Homosexual. By this I mean when did you, as you are infering about homosexuals, make the distinct and concious choice to be heterosexual?

I know that I for one never had a choice in the matter. Research also tends to agree that sexuality is very much a genetic decision, just like almost every other aspect of our being.

Even though this issue is one of great importance to me, this post has nothing to do with personal sentiment. Every heterosexual I have spoken to on the subject could never tell me when they decided to be so, saying they were born that way. I don't see why they think that homosexuality would be any different.

Homosexuality does not have to have exclusive pros to it to be valid. Homosexuality and Heterosexuality are the same type of relationship and therefore will share the same pros as well as cons. The only difference is the sex of the people involved in the relationship.

If you are using the argument of reproduction as the defining factor of Homosexuality's useless and selfishness than we must also say the same for sterile people. They cannot reproduce, so what makes them functionally different from homosexuals other than their sex?

Also, saying that sterile people do not have a choice in being sterile, as many use in rebuttals, does not really say much. They are still missing "the priniciple, and most basic, and oldest tradition" of making babies. No matter what the cause, if one group of people are treated a certain way because of this lack of function then why would we not treat others with the same lack of function any differently?

Originally posted by miriam0566
reply to post by TKainZero

 

wow, alittle harsh

No one need free speach for nicities.

Free speach really is the freedom to say what is unpopular...

I try to get people to realy think, to realy make them question thier beliefs...

If that is going to make you hate me, or disreguard what i say, then that is your right.

Now, to the next ATS Anynoumous poster, who has given another good response, but is now veiwiable yet...

If you are using the argument of reproduction as the defining factor of Homosexuality's useless and selfishness than we must also say the same for sterile people.

Someone who has a medical or physical condition, is not the same as two people chosing to engage in a homosexual relationship. Segregating people based on a medical diagnosis is not a good practice.

Homosexual couples, and infertile hetero couples are not the same thing... the reasons for each couple on why they cant make a baby is VASTLY diffrent... The hetero couple has the tools and equitment and supplies to make a house, but the equitment is faulty, a homo couple has just a couple of tools, and there is no way to start the foundation of the house.

What makes you so sure that Homosexuality is a choice? Are you saying then that Heterosexuality is also a choice and that a person is confronted with this fork in the road at sometime in their lives?

I dont think hetero sexuality is a choice. I belive hetero-sexual relations are the natural order, devience from the natuarl path is a choice.


But to ansewer your question, i cannot say for certain that homosexuality is a choice. But if it was a gentic thing, how would it get passed on?

Or would people during their life, unconsesouly have thier bodies decide for them that they are homosexual?

Or is it the actions of the early life of the child what determine if the child becomes homo or not.

Personaly from the time of early grade school, i had always liked girls, so i dont think there was ever a moment of decision, just a natural attraction.

If homosexuality is not a choice, it seems to apear that you think that homosexuality is then in fact inherited... but what would be the means of that happening. I dont want to put any thoughts into your head with my ideas, but oculd you at least theroize how 'sexuality' would be passed on? or give it a shot?

Originally posted by TKainZero
No one need free speach for nicities.

Free speach really is the freedom to say what is unpopular...

I try to get people to realy think, to realy make them question thier beliefs...

If that is going to make you hate me, or disreguard what i say, then that is your right.

yea, but your being harsh for no reason. you are starting a discussion you know little about assuming you know whats what, trying to prove a point (which i havent quite figured out which point your trying to make)

is your point that homosexuality is bad for humans in general? do we really need more procreation on our 6 billion+ planet?

your second question i neither here nor there. what difference does it make if it has been voted down or not?

in your third question, are you refering to the theory that the roman civilization fell because of the break down of the family?

and what does 4 have to do with anything?

its like you have a point to make but your not making it.

Originally posted by miriam0566
yea, but your being harsh for no reason. you are starting a discussion you know little about assuming you know whats what, trying to prove a point (which i havent quite figured out which point your trying to make)

its like you have a point to make but your not making it.

Why do you assume that i know little about Homosexuals?

Because i am not a homoserxual, i should not be able to talk about the implications of homosexuality.


Im trying to provoke a disscusion, not lead a lecture.

Hello, it's anon #1 again...I don't have a word processor this time, so forgive any spelling errors.

Many of your arguments are based on the assumption that homosexuality is a choice, and a selfish one. I have a number of homsexual friends, and I can't agree with this. Why would anyone consciously choose to be homosexual if they knew it would lead to their stigmatization in society? One of my friends from childhood confided in me that she felt sexual urges towards girls, and not guys, but she was too terrified to tell anybody about it. It was quite obvious to me that she didn't like the way she was...but it was also quite obvious that she knew she couldn't change it.

As to the "genetics" argument, many scientists seem to believe homosexuality is the result of abnormal hormone levels in the brain during development - certainly not a conscious choice.

As for being sterile/taking away from the gene pool - that is true. But if homosexuals (supposing homosexuality is a choice, which a great amount of evidence says is false) should be punished for this, why not people who choose to remain single? Why not holy men and women who are "married to god"? On another level, gay men can still have surrogate children, and I'm pretty sure the first real baby from the dna of a lesbian couple was born not too long ago. Additionally, gay couples can adopt.

Also, humans have all but removed themselves from the evolutionary race - does it really matter if a few people don't produce children?

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

Also, humans have all but removed themselves from the evolutionary race - does it really matter if a few people don't produce children?

The funny thing is, when a heterosexual person chooses not to reproduce, it's a sign of empowerment in todays culture that one has that choice. If homosexuality is a choice (and it certainly is not) then why not the same level of empowerment?

That's an interesting point, Rasobasi. I guess it just goes to show how illogical humans can be.

I know this would be "unethical" these days, but I've always wanted to have a group of children raised in an environment special-made to have no 'indicators' as to who those children should form prejudices against, and then see what the children were like upon reaching adulthood. Sounds like a good source of judges...

here is something i bet you didnt know , dolphins have sex, both heterosexual, and homosexual, for pleasure, and there animals, without the opposable thumb, so to speak, also, if you go with the creationist theory, eve was made from a body part of adam, therefore, technically a man with opposite reproductive organs

***WARNING Long post ahead, use of Brain Waves, required...***

Originally posted by outrider
here is something i bet you didnt know

And a retort to that,

I bet you didnt know that Ducks Mate for life.

A simple animal, but it mates for life.


Its Daffy and Dasiy duck. Its simple, its universialy know. Not Daffy and Donald, not Daisy and Susy. Daffy and Daisy duck.

You dont see boy ducks running around, with other boys ducks, thinking that they are better then the hetero-couple ducks... ducks are simple. Ducks know, that if 2 ducks of the same sex start living together, and that becomes the norm, well, after a while there wont be anymore little baby ducks.

So what of a society when the Ducks are smarted then the Humans?

Surely you cant say, that because dolphins (im assuming just males...) have sex with members of the same sex, that it means that humans should also??? There are a myrid of species on this planet, in which the Female will KILL the male after mating? What actions of other animals is it apropiate to humans to mimic? And who draws the lines on which animals to follow, and what actions?

Anonymous, I hold no ill will against any that happens to misspell something, all of ATS knows my spelling is not what anyone would call good, but i would hope that i am able to still get across my message.

If you can agree that 'homosexualit' cannot be inherited Geneticly, but it is possible that certain foods/hormones could change the chemical make-up of a person. In effect, by stating that its not possible for Homosexuality to be inherited, then it is infact, a defect that is the result of various outside forces acting on the person.

By saying that homosexuality is not a choice, but is neither a gentic inheritence, you paint yourself into a tight corner. You open the door for a myrid of diffrent scenerios in which 'homosexuality' was unknowingly aquired by a child.

You would start out, saying that th actions, surrounding the child, will form the mold for the child.

Such that, little Molly was normal, and would have grown up to like boys, but instead, when she was 2 years old, her mom held her in her lap while she watched Sex-in-The City, and now Molly will grow up to like Girls?

Or mabye, Billy and his family grew up in California, where for all his life, Billy drank tap water, which was laced with flouride, which changed the hormones in his body and made him gay?

This is similar to the argument that people use to say that alchohalism is a disiease, and they have no control over it. People have that ability to make a choice weather to drink or not. A person cannot be an alchohalic, if they choose never to start drinking. To say alchohalism is something that is out of your control, is an outright lie.


A person is not born a homosexual, they have to make that choice, to be homosexual, to give in and 'be' with someone from the same sex.


Now rasi,

The funny thing is, when a heterosexual person chooses not to reproduce, it's a sign of empowerment in todays culture that one has that choice.

Todays 'culture' does not look at people who decide not to have children as empowered... sure there may be patches of people that think that way, that are centerend around San Fransicko and NY City, but these people who think its so cool to just party and party into thier 40's, you may look at these people and say... "Ohh, they are so progresive, how empowering... the lady doesnt want to have a baby, cause it could mess with her figure.... oh... good for her..."

Your compltly wroung, most of the country doesnt see hetro-couples that are childless as a good thing, its the oppisite, people are disgusted that these people are so self serving, all they care about is them selfs. You think its empowering, let me tell you something, the rest of the nation, they think its sick.


All around the world, the civilized people, are preproducing at a lower rate, this inst a population that is exclusive to America, ALL OVER EUROPE they have this problem.

And conversly, in the impoversished nations, the birth-rate is soaring...

Its like there is an inverse relation of the Birth rate and the litiricy rate...

If your an nation of illiterate scumbags, each couple has like 5 babies a year...

Now you go to a great nation, The man is a Teacher, and the Woman a scientist, how many babies do they have, None...

Look at the birth rates of countries, like Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Britain, then also look at the birthrates of the INDIGIOUNUS people of those countries, its dropping, like a ship, sinking faster then the USS Arizona on Dec. 7th 1941...

Why.. why do smart people not want kids... nations are losing thier indigiouns population, and they are being replaced with foreigners, dumber, hornier, and cheaper...

Yea, its like capitalism and survial of the fittisest on a country scale... the old rich smart people, they have so much money, so much opertunity, so many great things to invent, or write, or do, so they go about thier lifes, only concerned with what concerns them, and care only for the pleasures of life...

Meanwhile, some illiterate, 3rd worlder, south of Tijiwana, has a crappy job, nothing outside of the essentials of life, and what do they do, they pop babies out at a record rate.

But, after that little tanget, no one is saying that it is EMPOWERING to not have kids... its not looked upon as a good thing... other then inside Bill Gates Circle, lower birth rates are not celebrated.

Just because Hollywood, and the newspapers protray couples without children as 'empowering' doesnt mean it is.


When i was in high school, i used to work at a discount movie theather. It was a run down pile of junk, that showed 8-month old movies at a discount... only theather in the area, it had been open 15 years, changed owners several times, and the entire time, an elderly lady worked there. My older brother worked there before me, under diffrent owners, lady was always there, thru 3 diffretn ownerships...

It was just kids at this place, everyone in highshcool, and the management was under 30... it was a simeple job, the old lady just sold the tickets... in the down time, we used to talk to her, she was in her 70's...

She told us that her husband, used to be a director, and that she and him were very well off, but they always would put off having a child, as there was always a next project to do...

The years rolled on she said, she said she had tons of fun, every night was a party, all the big parties, with the big names, all the drugs... before she new it she was getting old, and her husband got sick, he passed away when she was over 50 years old, she was left a widow, and childless...

She was still pretty well off, and moved to Florida, where she still lives today, she got the job as being the ticket-selling lady at the theater, and she held that job every since... she said that she considered all the employees of the theater, her children, and over the years, she loved some of them, and hated others.

She realy wanted kids, but the lifestyle her and her husband lived, it never happened, and before she knew it, it was too late... she is still working there, after high school, i moved cross country, but a few years ago, i went back, and she was still there, and there was a whole new group of employees... my best friends little brother is working there now, years his younger, and now he works there... we are all children in her heart, because she has no children of her own...

If you ask her, i doubt she would tell you that the exeperince was empowering...

[edit on 5/28/2008 by TKainZero]

Originally posted by TKainZero
***WARNING Long post ahead, use of Brain Waves, required...***

Although, ironically, the use of brainwaves was not required for writing that tired tirade.

I'm very delighted that you get your understanding of animal sexual behavior from Looney Toons and Disney.

en.wikipedia.org...

Mallards

Two male Mallards,Anas platyrhynchos

Mallards form male-female pairs only until the female lays eggs, at which time she is left by the male. The clutch is 8–13 eggs, which are incubated for 27–28 days to hatching with 50–60 days to fledging. The ducklings are precocial, and can swim and feed themselves on insects as soon as they hatch, although they stay near the female for protection. Young ducklings are not naturally waterproof and rely on the mother to provide waterproofing. Mallards also have rates of male-male sexual activity that are unusually high for birds.[23] In some cases, as many as 19% of pairs in a Mallard population are male-male homosexual[23]

So, percentage wise, there are more gay ducks than gay people, and there are still little ducks running around. They didn't influence the rest of duck society, and they're doing fine.



[edit on 28-5-2008 by Rasobasi420]

reply to post by Rasobasi420


well, there is your answer, its not just dolphins, i was only saying dolphins as they are the most intelegent animal on earth, can you say that about ducks?

Homosexuality- Whats good about it? my answer is nothing.

its deviant and corrupt, but people seek happiness by defying traditional norms, were u guys suggesting that humans should follow what animals do and take them as an example? are we trying to devolve? are u freaking kidding me!

plus animals do that anyway due to lack of finding a mate of the opposite sex and the last time i checked each sex of human species is found everywhere.

[edit on 28-5-2008 by DuneKnight]

Originally posted by DuneKnight
Homosexuality- Whats good about it? my answer is nothing.

I take it you're not gay

were u guys suggesting that humans should follow what animals do and take them as an example? are we trying to devolve? are u freaking kidding me!

No one is using animals as an example of anything. All that homosexual animals show is that it's a biological trait rather than an individual choice. Same as always, sexuality is natural and not a choice.

plus animals do that anyway due to lack of finding a mate of the opposite sex and the last time i checked each sex of human species is found everywhere.

Really?!? I'm dying to know where you found that out. Unfortunately, since TKainZero's use of Donald and Daffy Duck as a reference for animal sexuality, I have to ask for sources on facts like these. Don't take it personally sweety

reply to post by DuneKnight


well, my being a bisexual person i have this to say to you, you are arrogant, and just gay bashing.