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The Free Will Myth?

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posted on May, 22 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


well you gave me the first one, which shows me just how much you dont read. your taking that first part saying that well god wills it, so it will be. but your ignoring the second part. repentance is required.

that means that there will be people who dont repent.

thats in harmony with john 3

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
he that doesnt believe is condemed, i thought you said all would be saved?

john 3:[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

john 17:[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

jer 25:[5] They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever: [6] And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

you get life for being faithful. not all are faithful
rev 2:[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

you agree sin will lead to death?
heb 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

so what happens to those unable?
luke 13:[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, [24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

believing is required, which means that there are people who dont believe
john 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

ephesians 4:17 - 5:5 are some requirements for salvation.

matt 10: [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
what about those that dont endure?

satan will not be saved. and he knows it
rev 12:[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

rom 16:[20] And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

satan´s destruction will be eternal
rev 20:[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

2 thess 1:[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

talking about unfaithful
zeph 1:[14] The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,[16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.[17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.[18] Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

john 5:[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.




posted on May, 22 2008 @ 05:46 PM
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zeph 2:[2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.[3] Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

psalms 37:[9] For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.[10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

proverbs 2:[21] For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.[22] But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

again in duet
duet 30:[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:[20] That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

every single one of this scriptures contradicts your ¨ALL WILL be saved¨ theory


I'm not suggesting NOT being accountable for one's own actions. And my 'logic' hardly goes around in circles. You may not know the choice you were going to make, but God already forsaw the choice you were going to make.


so again i ask you a question. how can a man be held accountable for actions he has no choice but to do. then add this with another question of why would anyone need to be held accountable if everyone is to be saved.

you make no sense. as such, im exerciseing my free will and am leaving the debate.



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by Freenrgy2
 


There is undoubtedly free will. Whether or not you want to be held accountable for your actions is not up to me, it's up to you.

This is a simple mathematical solution . . .

You are given a choice 1 or 2

You like 2

2

now your given a choice 2 or 3

you like 3

2+3

now you are given a choice 3 or 4

you still like 3

2+3+3

now you are given a final choice 4 or 5

you like 4


2+3+3+4= 12

You got what you wanted and it changed the "form" of the equation. But even the complete opposite of choices still equals 12.

1+2+4+5= 12

In this mathematical demonstration i am gearing you to get a score of 10 or higher. Regardless of your choices, which do change the numbers involved- you cannot escape The Plan.

[edit on 5/22/2008 by JPhish]



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566


2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


well you gave me the first one, which shows me just how much you dont read. your taking that first part saying that well god wills it, so it will be. but your ignoring the second part. repentance is required.

that means that there will be people who dont repent.


Everyone will repent....and thus everyone will be saved.

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phillipians 2:9-11

Now either God is forcing people to praise him or a change must have taken place so that EVERY tongue confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. If there's no hell, what happens? A lake of fire where God's chastisments are given. It is through God's chastistement that we are purified and brought to a place of repentance.

"In Adam, all died, in Christ SHALL ALL be made alive." 1 Cor. 15:22

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9:27





[edit on 22-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by Freenrgy2
 


There is undoubtedly free will. Whether or not you want to be held accountable for your actions is not up to me, it's up to you.
[edit on 5/22/2008 by JPhish]


Brother, here we go again. Not having free will does not mean that one is NOT accountable for their own actions. It does not give one free reign to do as they please with no consequences or is in any way justification for wrongdoing. This is a lie that has been perpetrated on the human race for far too long. Why does this foolosh nonsense keep on repeating itself?

I will give you this; there IS a plan, but the myth of free will is not part of it.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by Freenrgy2
Everyone will repent....and thus everyone will be saved.


you didnt even read the scriptures did you....

good night



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
Everyone will repent....and thus everyone will be saved.


you didnt even read the scriptures did you....

good night


Absolutely did. I've found that most Christians are very defensive when you present scripture that actually bears witness to the Glory of God and his plan. Christendom has perpetrated a lie amongst humanity for far too long and it is our duty to:

"...hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." Titus 1:9



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 09:59 PM
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I love this one.

Do you have a fate outlined by God? A pre-determined future already written in the annals of heaven?


Or do you have free will?


You can't have both. No matter how many rhetorical hoops you want to jump through, or circular logic leaps you want to make.



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by kegs
 


Yes, everything has been planned by God.


GOD HAS PERFECTLY CHOREOGRAPHED HIS CREATION

All that has been, and is, and will be, has been planned and choreographed down to the movement of the last atom, by the Designer and Operator of the Universe, without Whom everything would fall apart in oblivion:

“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist [‘has its cohesion,’ ]” (Col. 1:16-17).

Since “by Jesus all things consist and have their cohesion,” why is it that only man and his fabled “free-moral-agency-will” is the only truly “free radical” in the universe? Nonsense! Even “free radicals” operate under law—God operates all that exists, by law. Jesus did not create the universe and all that in it is, and then goes off on a trip to let the universe fend for itself. God presently is “working—operating” all that exists, and that includes the “will” of all mankind. Here’s some more Scriptural proof:

“…God which works [‘operates’] all in all ” (I Cor. 12:6). God works all that there is in all that there are. Pretty neat, huh? When we have a God this great, we can expect nothing but perfect assured success. The Christian teaching that God only can “desire” great things, but He cannot actually “accomplish” great things is absurd.

Here is Christian theology at its best: God invents man. God desires for man to work a certain way. Man fails to work in the way that God desires. Out of uncontrollable frustration, God tortures his mal-functioning invention for all eternity. And no one sees a problem with this anti-scriptural heresy.

Who among us has not seen in real life or in the movies: A man invents a machine. He desires for his invention to work a certain way. The invention fails to work in the desired way. The inventor smashes the mal-functioning machine into a thousand pieces? We laugh at such stupid and juvenile behavior, yet we worship a god who supposedly acts a thousand times more stupid and evil than our carnal-minded inventor. Go figure.

What kind of insanity blames a “created machine” for any mal-functions? God created the human race; God is responsible for any and all activities of the human race. No one asked to be born! And yet… and YET, there are those evil-minded theologians and Christians who believe that God will not only torture most of His creatures, but that He actually knew in advance of their creation that He would torture most of them in literal fire for all eternity!

Not only would such an “Inventor” be stupid, but he would be evil beyond words to describe. Yet even all of this stupidity and evil of the human heart, “…is of God.” Most have not yet even conceived of the Judgment that will come on them for the heresy of their own hearts. This judgment of our hearts is also part of God’s grand plan. God has made man in this weakened spiritual state for a grand and glorious destiny. Man is not yet created in God’s full spiritual Image, but that is the process, purpose, and destiny of the human race—to finally be the very Image of God Himself.

The Scriptures plainly show and state in many places, that the natural mind of man cannot love and obey God. Yet theologians tell us that unless man does, of his own free will, love and obey God, that God will torture them in fire for all eternity. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!

“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).

“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).

“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).

“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE” (Rom. 4:17).

“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…” (Isa. 46:10).

“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).

All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.” And this is why:

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).

No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).

I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?

If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;

“call those things which be not as though they were.”

“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!

“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by JPhish
 


Good example! Considering God is the creator of all things I am sure he can know our destiny while STILL allowing us to choose it. Having an eternal perspective makes him a little more than our finite minds are going to grasp. Hence this argument will not resolve as God can and probably does have it both ways. He is the ONE that gets to have his cake and eat it too

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The OP may have a point in some sort of vague theological sense in relation to Gods sovereignty but as people we should live as if every decision we make has eternal consequences.



Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (James 1:13-14)


God doesn't tempt any man. We are tempted "by our own lust". God allows it but he does not "will" it in the sense that desires it. In fact he wills us to be as perfect as he is.


Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(Matt 5:48)






[edit on 5/22/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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This is a complex question with an easier answer.

If a person believes that all future events are already set (whether it's physics or God or both) but that we humans are just to simple of a creature to see this, it seems plausible. However, that argument is pure speculation. That argument suffers from a false, circular logic. Let me explain.

The philosophical presumption is Newtonian. The idea is that the universe is like a big clock that can be explained by an equation; if we know all the initial starting values, then we would be able to calculate every future event that will ever occur, including human thought. This is essentially the argument of No Free Will.

The problem with that idea, even from a philosophical perspective, is one of feedback loops and the equation. The equation is treated as separate from the universe it is calculating, which is fine in fantasy land, but impossible in this universe. There is no way that any calculation can be performed in this universe which calculates the entire universe in addition to calculating itself. There would always be a requirement of 1 extra variable (at least) to account for the equation, but where do you put it?

Sure, you could then encompass that equation in another equation which accounts for the output of the first equation, but then you would have to account for that extra layer of an equation.

This recursive compounding of equations calculating equations would have to go on to inifinity, which makes the equation impossible to calculate.

Therefore, there is room in this universe for free will. In fact, free will is actually a fundamental side effect of this universe. It must occur somewhere in this vast equation, otherwise the universe would never be able to observe itself, which is the role some creatures (including us) fulfill.



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 02:22 AM
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Holy Post it Notes Batman!!

I think that unless you taste freedom everything you say is just dust.

This way of thinking reminds me of two men trying to convince each other that Zebra's exist or do not exist simply because of the things they have read or have been taught.

I think once you taste of freedom the question dies in the very light of freedom.

Once you taste it, it is then defined as well as fact.

So, in response to this thread I have started my own complete with a source from wiki.
:www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 23-5-2008 by whiteraven]



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 04:01 AM
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This topic reminds me of a thread I made a while back -
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Do we have free will?

In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth, gen 1:1

Did god create the earth unaware of what would happen?

The bible claims god is omniscient and that we have free will, do we?

The god of the bible is said to be both omnipotent and omniscient, it also claimed in the bible that we have free will, is it possible for there to be and omnipotent god and for its creation to have free will?

Here is a little experiment: Do something, anything at all, that you don’t think god could have possibly known you were going to do.

Can you do it? Can you surprise god?

If you can, then god is not omniscient. It is not all knowing. If it is not omniscient then how can it be omnipotent?

If you cannot surprise god then how can you have free will?

You cannot do anything other than that which god already knows you are going to do.

The bible says god knew everything before it created the foundations of the world. EVERYTHING

This means that it knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

An omniscient god new this would happen.

This means that it knew that its creation would run amuck and do evil things.

That it would kill 99.999999999% of all life on earth in the flood ad it would still not fix the problems of evil.

It knew before it created the earth.

It knew what Stalin, Hitler and other despots would do on the future.

With this knowledge what did the bible god do? It went on and created the world.

God created us just like it wanted us to be.

It created the world and all on it with a foreknowledge of every detail of what would happen and because it is both omnipotent and omniscient nothing can be changed from what he knew would happen.

So when you stole that cooke at age 5 or Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews, it was all apart of gods will.

Remember, it knew in advance yet it went on with the creation. If what was going to happen was not what it wanted, it would not have created it.

All that is, is the will of god.

Free will and an omniscient god are logically impossible.

If you sin, god knew you would, it created you anyway and you can not do other than what it knew and thus willed.

If you don’t believe in it, it knew you wouldn’t, yet created you anyway. It is its will that you don’t believe in it.

So the bible god, being omnipotent and omniscient is responsible for everything. Evil, sin, death etc.

Everything that is, is the will of god.



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 07:06 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 


That's what hard for most of Christendom to undertand; that God actually IS in control of HIS creation. Both good and evil were created for HIS purpose. Nothing exists without God. But, the church took these teaching, twisted them and decided that they couldn't put forth a God responsible for both good and evil in the world. So, they created "free will." This lets God off the hook, since it is man and SATAN and not God who is responsible for evil in the world. This is also the reason why a fictional hell was created, since God would need someplace to put all the evildoers while the good ones went to heaven.

Ever hear the term "God doesn't make junk?" Well, its true that God didn't create Adam and Eve as spiritually perfect beings either. We were indeed made spiritually weak so that we would eventually SIN. And God knew we would SIN by giving us the law immediately. "Do not eat of the tree." Out of mans' heart did he LUST with the eyes, LUST with FLESH and showed PRIDE. Man sinned before he even took one bite from the fruit. God KNEW this would happen. Man's punishment was death and it is death that is given to all of Adam's desccendents...not SIN. Adam sinned and each of us sin, but Adam's sin did not transfer to us. That is another fallacy of the church; that we are guilty from original sin. Wrong, we are guilty because we SIN. Death is our punishment as a result of the garden.

I explained why Christ died above. It is also true that Christendom would rather have mankind believe that a perfect God, created perfect beings that ran amuck and God just stood by and wondered what happened. Nonsense. And because of this, only a fraction of mankind will be saved. The all knowing, omnicient God who knew you before you were even born, knew that you would go to hell and that 's o.k. because you chose to go there by your own free will? Huh? Sound confusing? It is.

The fact is that God SAVES and that God will SAVE ALL. Yes, that means Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Kahn, Napolean, Saddam Hussein, Osama, even SATAN, etc.. They will all go through a "Lake of Fire" where they will come [are caused] to repentance.

But what about the dead? Well, they're dead. And when you're dead you aren't conscious. Nobody is in heaven....yet. And nobody is in a fictional place called hell either.

I like to believe that God I serve is one who is in complete control, who knows me, who forsees all that I do, good and bad, who causes me to experience things knowing full well I will screw up, who gave HIS SON for me, who will SAVE me and ALL of manking in the end.

One last thing...God is not a closed trinity, but an expanding family!

And get this, believing this doesn't mean I justify my actions or go around looking to do evil and partying like no tomorrow. It makes me want to serve my God that mich more. I chose to serve, not because of free will but because of what God WILLS in me to do. But ask your typical church-raised Christian and they'll tell you that having no free will means no self-control and an excuse to behave in a wrong fashion without consequences. And I'm sure they'll tell you you're going to a real hell as well.

The good news is, nothing could be further from the truth. And I pray that God have mercy on them for teaching these false doctrines to most of humanity.

[edit on 23-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 08:12 AM
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Oh dear. After seeing the link to this thread from the other thread and after reading both pages of this thread, I feel like I'm about to step into a hornet's nest. But I know you started this thread at my request after us getting into it on the other thread so it is the least I can do to show my appreciation.


Free will vs. Predetermined. I believe it is a little bit of both.


I'd like you to clarify what you mean by 'causes,' though. Like we wouldn't have the 'choice' to steal a suitcase full of money if the 'cause' [In this instance: the suitcase full of money] didn't exist in the first place? Not really sure why you keep mentioning causes or how that would affect the matter of free will.

Thanks.



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


What you need to do is stop associating 'causes' with 'free will'. They are not linked.

Would I have been able to make the choice to steal a suitcase full of money if that suitcase wasn't there? Even if there wasn't a real suitcase and it was just something I thought up, even that wouldn't be free from something that 'caused' me to think that. I did not FREELY WILL myself to do anything. Instead, if I were presented with a choice (which was caused..all choices are), then I would make a decision based on that. However, it is GOD who WILLS in ME to do GOOD. My WILL can't even function without GOD'S WILL.

Most Christians will argue that free will = choices. That is not true. They cite the Garden of Eden as the defacto standard of man's free will because we ate from the fruit of the tree. If making choices is the definition of free will, then why don't computers have free wills? All they do is make choices.

But, when a Christian is presented with this line of thinking, they immediately go into lockdown mode and begin to recite how they believe free will means making a choice, when that is completely wrong. But, it is this same thinking that has permeated the church and most of mankind throughout history. For what purpose? The only way free will has any "substance" to it, is to believe in a God who did not create evil and that SATAN and man are the ones responsible for evil; that man freely choses to do evil. God is in no way responsible for evil. Free will is the basis for the existence of hell. If God isn't responsible for evil and SATAN and man is, then there must be a place where they can be tormented forever and ever, while the small group of chosen people of God get to go to heaven.

How can Christians serve a God who can create everything, yet deny that he created evil? They want soooo much to believe that God created a perfect spiritual being (us) and that we, with our own free wills you know, decided to do evil (but God didn't create that). And, because of this, God didn't know that his creation would screw up, so he had to create hell and death. Complete and utter nonsense.

How about a God who created both good and evil (scriptural) and created a spiritualy weak man which he knew would SIN and even caused the choice to SIN by giving the LAW not to eat of the fruit of the tree.


"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)

and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)

and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:

"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)

Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.



But, before we discuss more, what is the definition of free will.


"Free Will" DEFINED

The American Heritage College Dictionary:

"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."

My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:

"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."

It is useless to have a study on this term "free will" unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, "free will" does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to "make choices." Yet this is the way it is often defined.

Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is "FREE choice" that is the definition of "free will," rather than just "choice" alone. To be an expression of "free will," choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:

Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."

Free from "CONSTRAINT."

Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."

Free from "FATE."

Free from "DIVINE WILL."

Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."

Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions. They want the mere ability to "make a choice" to be considered an act of "free will." Well it is nothing of the kind. Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free will." This is easily demonstrated. Computers make "choices." They can make trillions of choices per second. It would take a trillion people to make that many choices in a second. All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.

Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills? So now we have proof that making choices is not the same as "free will."

We are not speaking of "Hal" in the Hollywood science fiction fantasy: "2001—A Space Odyssey." Computers do not have "free wills," yet THEY CAN MAKE CHOICES, but those choices are anything but free. Their choices are all a matter of PRE-programming. They cannot think and act independently of "causes." Neither can man think or do anything outside of the realm of "causes." In order for an effect to be present, there must first be a cause, and once something is caused, the effect must follow, and neither could have been prevented.

There is not one example that can be presented by scientific a method, that can demonstrate that man’s will is free from causality. Neither is there an example in all Scripture that can be shown to be the exercise of a will that is free from causality. And that certainly includes all that our Lord Himself ever thought, said, or did.


[edit on 23-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
God doesn't tempt any man. We are tempted "by our own lust". God allows it but he does not "will" it in the sense that desires it. In fact he wills us to be as perfect as he is.


You are right, God does NOT tempt. Nor does he desire it.

This is the way I understand it:

Source here.



Ray,

I've been reading your letter to Dr. Kennedy and in your section on Good and Evil you say that God meant for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. James 1:13 says, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

If God placed the tree in the garden with the intent of causing Adam and Eve to eat of the tree, then did he not tempt Adam and Eve? This seems to contradict James 1:13. Certainly he used the serpent to tempt them.
...
How do you reconcile the garden scene with James 1:13?

[Ray Replies]

God does many, many things through OTHER channels. There are no contradictions, we just need to always be completely honest and open with the Scriptures. Let me give you an example that I am sure you will understand that will also clarify all the other apparent contradictions such as the forbidden tree in the Garden, and many others.

Are we all totally agreed that GOD DOES NOT LIE? Good!

"In hope of eternal life, which God, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).

Now, I Kings 22:22,

"And the Lord said unto him [a spirit], Wherewith? And he [the spirit] said, I will go forth, and I WILL BE A LYING SPIRIT in the mouth of all his prophets. And He [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: GO FORTH, AND DO SO"!!!

So God, Who does not, will not, cannot LIE, agreed to have this LYING SPIRIT go out and LIE!

I realize that many of these things are too high for many Christians to comprehend and accept, but God does operate in such ways, and God does right by doing so. God never makes a mistake and God never sins. It was not a sin on God's part to make man so spiritually WEAK than he can't possibly live righteously and please God in his present carnal condition.

God did not directly entice Adam or Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit, Satan did. But notice, Who planted the tree? Where was it planted, in a far corner somewhere? Who made the tree LOOK good and desirable to make one wise? Who knew that Satan would take the first opportunity to tempt them? Who had ALREADY PREPARED HIS SON AS A LAMB to be slaughtered for these sins even before they committed them? Well, yes, of course, it was GOD! God did NOT tempt Eve. Satan tempted Eve. Eve's own carnal nature tempted here.

God didn't need to even be present--although even unseen, God is always present. God had marvelous, good, and righteous, and unfathomable WISE purpose for creating things as He as.

It would be impossible to create this world, mankind, Satan, and the whole heavenly host, any better than God did it the first time! Can we not believe this? This creation, this world, this generation of wicked and evil people, with all the terrorists and frightful things happening all around us is EXACTLY AS GOD PLANNED IT. What power in heaven or earth could possible THWART GOD'S ORIGINAL PLAN AND PURPOSE? God IS SOVEREIGN!!!

Just because we don't always understand things, does in no way ever diminish God's Sovereignty. God plainly tells us that He knows and sees and prophesies, THE BEGINNING AND THE END. Nothing has ever surprised God. God is a billion times smarter and wiser than most ever give Him credit. Christendom is telling the world that God's plan is off the tracks and it's up to us to put things back the way they should be.




[edit on 23-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 09:52 AM
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Ohooo, "Free Will" not Free Willie".....

Sorry couldn't resist!


Actually to make a simple point, God does give us free will but He also already knows our choices before we make them.

Great discussion by the way! It's nice to see such civility and I am also happy to see that those who disagree are not bashing God or Faith.

Kudos to the OP for bringing this up.



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by jbondo
Ohooo, "Free Will" not Free Willie".....

Sorry couldn't resist!


Actually to make a simple point, God does give us free will but He also already knows our choices before we make them.

Great discussion by the way! It's nice to see such civility and I am also happy to see that those who disagree are not bashing God or Faith.

Kudos to the OP for bringing this up.


Thank you. How does God 'give' us free will? I believe there is no such thing.



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
several things to consider


You are assuming a lot of things in making your point and allow me to counter them with other possibilities:



- if free will doesnt exist, then that means there are people doomed to destruction no matter what they do


Not true. This is assuming that there are only two possibilities beyond death; heaven and hell. The bible actually mentions the eternal lake of fire, which can be spiritually meaning a place of never ending refining of ones soul. The problem with the traditional view is that it considers time as linear and the present is followed by a judgment, yet to God time is not any kind of consideration. He can visit any time past, present, or future. One thing that amuses me is that considering heaven, and hell it leaves little doubt of where we are at. Heaven is the unification of man and God and Hell is merely the separation between man and God. Since we are apart from God, this is our hell, which is also the eternal lake of fire. The time and place we are in now is a virtual reality in which our souls are sent to be eternally refined in the learning process of unification to God. That's our purpose here.



- if it doesnt exist, then that means god is responsible for the ills in this world (a point the bible strongly disagrees with), because we would all sin because that is what god makes us do


When did mankind assume that God is not responsible for the ills of the world until they embraced free-will? What Father would teach the virtue of being responsible for ones action yet not uphold the same virtue in themselves for their entire creation. I would think that mainstream church teaches free-will as a way to take away all sovereignty from God and place all the blame on humans so that they may be forever burdened and in need of religion.



- if it doesnt exist, then there is no personal responsibility.


Perhaps our lives are controlled in such a way as to make mistakes so that we will come to learn of the ways of God? Our responsibility is to have the courage to admit that we are not in control. With everything in thing world beginning to go haywire, will you soon think any differently when you cannot control the destiny of your own life?



- if there is no personal responsibility, how can god have any right to judge us.


We judge ourselves by creating the belief systems we acknowledge. After this God judges whether we are returned to spirit and Godhood or the physical plane in the New Earth. If you look into the book of Revelations, there are two judgments; the judgment and the Great White Throne Judgment. These two states of existence are what it is talking about.



- the bible is filled with scriptures that show that people have the ability to choose


And it also has many instances where people give up on choosing and turn their destinies over to God's hand. Moses leading the Hebrews from Egypt, Jesus giving over of his life, Noah building an ark. All these are the examples of stories you can find in which people gave up their own agenda and followed a pattern of predetermination.




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