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2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I'm not suggesting NOT being accountable for one's own actions. And my 'logic' hardly goes around in circles. You may not know the choice you were going to make, but God already forsaw the choice you were going to make.
Originally posted by miriam0566
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
well you gave me the first one, which shows me just how much you dont read. your taking that first part saying that well god wills it, so it will be. but your ignoring the second part. repentance is required.
that means that there will be people who dont repent.
Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by Freenrgy2
There is undoubtedly free will. Whether or not you want to be held accountable for your actions is not up to me, it's up to you.
[edit on 5/22/2008 by JPhish]
Originally posted by Freenrgy2
Everyone will repent....and thus everyone will be saved.
Originally posted by miriam0566
Originally posted by Freenrgy2
Everyone will repent....and thus everyone will be saved.
you didnt even read the scriptures did you....
good night
GOD HAS PERFECTLY CHOREOGRAPHED HIS CREATION
All that has been, and is, and will be, has been planned and choreographed down to the movement of the last atom, by the Designer and Operator of the Universe, without Whom everything would fall apart in oblivion:
“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist [‘has its cohesion,’ ]” (Col. 1:16-17).
Since “by Jesus all things consist and have their cohesion,” why is it that only man and his fabled “free-moral-agency-will” is the only truly “free radical” in the universe? Nonsense! Even “free radicals” operate under law—God operates all that exists, by law. Jesus did not create the universe and all that in it is, and then goes off on a trip to let the universe fend for itself. God presently is “working—operating” all that exists, and that includes the “will” of all mankind. Here’s some more Scriptural proof:
“…God which works [‘operates’] all in all ” (I Cor. 12:6). God works all that there is in all that there are. Pretty neat, huh? When we have a God this great, we can expect nothing but perfect assured success. The Christian teaching that God only can “desire” great things, but He cannot actually “accomplish” great things is absurd.
Here is Christian theology at its best: God invents man. God desires for man to work a certain way. Man fails to work in the way that God desires. Out of uncontrollable frustration, God tortures his mal-functioning invention for all eternity. And no one sees a problem with this anti-scriptural heresy.
Who among us has not seen in real life or in the movies: A man invents a machine. He desires for his invention to work a certain way. The invention fails to work in the desired way. The inventor smashes the mal-functioning machine into a thousand pieces? We laugh at such stupid and juvenile behavior, yet we worship a god who supposedly acts a thousand times more stupid and evil than our carnal-minded inventor. Go figure.
What kind of insanity blames a “created machine” for any mal-functions? God created the human race; God is responsible for any and all activities of the human race. No one asked to be born! And yet… and YET, there are those evil-minded theologians and Christians who believe that God will not only torture most of His creatures, but that He actually knew in advance of their creation that He would torture most of them in literal fire for all eternity!
Not only would such an “Inventor” be stupid, but he would be evil beyond words to describe. Yet even all of this stupidity and evil of the human heart, “…is of God.” Most have not yet even conceived of the Judgment that will come on them for the heresy of their own hearts. This judgment of our hearts is also part of God’s grand plan. God has made man in this weakened spiritual state for a grand and glorious destiny. Man is not yet created in God’s full spiritual Image, but that is the process, purpose, and destiny of the human race—to finally be the very Image of God Himself.
The Scriptures plainly show and state in many places, that the natural mind of man cannot love and obey God. Yet theologians tell us that unless man does, of his own free will, love and obey God, that God will torture them in fire for all eternity. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE” (Rom. 4:17).
“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…” (Isa. 46:10).
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).
All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.” And this is why:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).
I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?
If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!
“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (James 1:13-14)
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(Matt 5:48)
"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:
"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:
"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:
"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
"Free Will" DEFINED
The American Heritage College Dictionary:
"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:
"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."
It is useless to have a study on this term "free will" unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, "free will" does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to "make choices." Yet this is the way it is often defined.
Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is "FREE choice" that is the definition of "free will," rather than just "choice" alone. To be an expression of "free will," choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:
Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."
Free from "CONSTRAINT."
Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."
Free from "FATE."
Free from "DIVINE WILL."
Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."
Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions. They want the mere ability to "make a choice" to be considered an act of "free will." Well it is nothing of the kind. Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free will." This is easily demonstrated. Computers make "choices." They can make trillions of choices per second. It would take a trillion people to make that many choices in a second. All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.
Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills? So now we have proof that making choices is not the same as "free will."
We are not speaking of "Hal" in the Hollywood science fiction fantasy: "2001—A Space Odyssey." Computers do not have "free wills," yet THEY CAN MAKE CHOICES, but those choices are anything but free. Their choices are all a matter of PRE-programming. They cannot think and act independently of "causes." Neither can man think or do anything outside of the realm of "causes." In order for an effect to be present, there must first be a cause, and once something is caused, the effect must follow, and neither could have been prevented.
There is not one example that can be presented by scientific a method, that can demonstrate that man’s will is free from causality. Neither is there an example in all Scripture that can be shown to be the exercise of a will that is free from causality. And that certainly includes all that our Lord Himself ever thought, said, or did.
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
God doesn't tempt any man. We are tempted "by our own lust". God allows it but he does not "will" it in the sense that desires it. In fact he wills us to be as perfect as he is.
Ray,
I've been reading your letter to Dr. Kennedy and in your section on Good and Evil you say that God meant for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. James 1:13 says, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
If God placed the tree in the garden with the intent of causing Adam and Eve to eat of the tree, then did he not tempt Adam and Eve? This seems to contradict James 1:13. Certainly he used the serpent to tempt them.
...
How do you reconcile the garden scene with James 1:13?
[Ray Replies]
God does many, many things through OTHER channels. There are no contradictions, we just need to always be completely honest and open with the Scriptures. Let me give you an example that I am sure you will understand that will also clarify all the other apparent contradictions such as the forbidden tree in the Garden, and many others.
Are we all totally agreed that GOD DOES NOT LIE? Good!
"In hope of eternal life, which God, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).
Now, I Kings 22:22,
"And the Lord said unto him [a spirit], Wherewith? And he [the spirit] said, I will go forth, and I WILL BE A LYING SPIRIT in the mouth of all his prophets. And He [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: GO FORTH, AND DO SO"!!!
So God, Who does not, will not, cannot LIE, agreed to have this LYING SPIRIT go out and LIE!
I realize that many of these things are too high for many Christians to comprehend and accept, but God does operate in such ways, and God does right by doing so. God never makes a mistake and God never sins. It was not a sin on God's part to make man so spiritually WEAK than he can't possibly live righteously and please God in his present carnal condition.
God did not directly entice Adam or Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit, Satan did. But notice, Who planted the tree? Where was it planted, in a far corner somewhere? Who made the tree LOOK good and desirable to make one wise? Who knew that Satan would take the first opportunity to tempt them? Who had ALREADY PREPARED HIS SON AS A LAMB to be slaughtered for these sins even before they committed them? Well, yes, of course, it was GOD! God did NOT tempt Eve. Satan tempted Eve. Eve's own carnal nature tempted here.
God didn't need to even be present--although even unseen, God is always present. God had marvelous, good, and righteous, and unfathomable WISE purpose for creating things as He as.
It would be impossible to create this world, mankind, Satan, and the whole heavenly host, any better than God did it the first time! Can we not believe this? This creation, this world, this generation of wicked and evil people, with all the terrorists and frightful things happening all around us is EXACTLY AS GOD PLANNED IT. What power in heaven or earth could possible THWART GOD'S ORIGINAL PLAN AND PURPOSE? God IS SOVEREIGN!!!
Just because we don't always understand things, does in no way ever diminish God's Sovereignty. God plainly tells us that He knows and sees and prophesies, THE BEGINNING AND THE END. Nothing has ever surprised God. God is a billion times smarter and wiser than most ever give Him credit. Christendom is telling the world that God's plan is off the tracks and it's up to us to put things back the way they should be.
Originally posted by jbondo
Ohooo, "Free Will" not Free Willie".....
Sorry couldn't resist!
Actually to make a simple point, God does give us free will but He also already knows our choices before we make them.
Great discussion by the way! It's nice to see such civility and I am also happy to see that those who disagree are not bashing God or Faith.
Kudos to the OP for bringing this up.
Originally posted by miriam0566
several things to consider
- if free will doesnt exist, then that means there are people doomed to destruction no matter what they do
- if it doesnt exist, then that means god is responsible for the ills in this world (a point the bible strongly disagrees with), because we would all sin because that is what god makes us do
- if it doesnt exist, then there is no personal responsibility.
- if there is no personal responsibility, how can god have any right to judge us.
- the bible is filled with scriptures that show that people have the ability to choose