Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

reply to post by Capozzelli


I don't see it as being a bigger conspiracy, no, in fact he was the only one who was a Mason. Most Masons also are not even active in the Lodge, they recieve the degrees and pay their dues and other then that, do not partake in Masonry. I would hazard a guess he is one of those peoples.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Would you hire a mason who didn't do as good a job as someone else just because he is a mason? Or are you saying that all things being the same you would pick the mason because he is a mason?

reply to post by Rockpuck


It is hard for me to say because I can't find too much info about this other then the one website that has it posted and they have some very strange other stuff there too. I can speak and write italian so if I saw the original article I would be able to understand it better but it is already translated so I can't find if it has been written wrong in english.

reply to post by Capozzelli


I am saying that if a Freemason was in need of a Job, I would gladly hire him. And train him.

EDIT:

Uh ... apparently there was an issue with the coding on aTS because my post was just cut short by like 90% lol..

ANYWAYS.

Like I said, I have never hired a Mason because I have never needed to. We also show Nepotism is the form of charity. We donate considerably to older Masons in need of a home.. we also give out scholarships to descendants of Masons. Also if another Mason falls on hard time, and another Mason finds out (they never seem to admit it themselves..) we will have a drive to donate as much money as possible to help him out.

Like I says, we is evil. It's in our blood.

[edit on 6/19/2008 by Rockpuck]

reply to post by Rockpuck

I don't see it as being a bigger conspiracy

The story just broke, the charges are still being laid, and the trial hasn't even begun!

no, in fact he was the only one who was a Mason.

Poppycock! Besides mobster-Mason Michele Accomando, Grand Master Stefano De Carolis of the Serene Grand Lodge 'Unita d'Italia' is another. Perhaps Calogero Licata, Nicola Sorrentino, Guido Peparaio, Rodolfo Grancini and Renato De Gregorio may very well be either "made" men too, masons, or both - the articles haven't specified.

they recieve the degrees and pay their dues and other then that, do not partake in Masonry. I would hazard a guess he is one of those peoples.

I don't have to hazard a guess that he's a mafioso and a Freemason, and that the entire investigation was started to prove collusion between the Mafia and "members of Freemasonry," obstruction of justice and corruption. I don't have to guess, because that's what the cops have told the press thus far.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


All wild and unsupported speculation.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Fraid not.

100% real life.

Taken from the actual stories in the Italian press.

(Fire In the Minds)

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


"has not even gone to court yet"

All wild and speculative.

Also note.. there is a vast difference between Wealth and Masonry. Wealthy men are not always Masons, and Masons are not always wealthy, and the two should never be compared.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
...the articles haven't specified.

I am trying to locate another article other then the one originally mentioned but I have failed to find one. Are you aware of anywhere else that this story is being reported?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sources cited and linked at the above. The first link at the above is a list of the 8, with a bit of biographical details; the last link at the above is from an archive (multiple stories in the press), collected and preserved on the site of the Grand Orient of Italy.

Another source here:
www.antimafiaduemila.com...


[edit on 21-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


I can't comment on the legitimacy of the story coming out of Italy, but I do know this sort of thing is entirely possible, and could be entirely true. Italian freemasonry has a complex and continuing history of interference in politics, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of them were infiltrated by the Mafia.

The bulk of freemasonry practiced in Italy is irregular - at the present time of the 12 or so Grand Lodges operating only the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy is regarded as regular. One of the key criteria for recognition as a regular Grand Lodge is complete non-interference in politics and religion - that is why we don't see these sorts of stories coming out of the UK or US.

Freemasonry is very much a product of the country or region in which it is practiced. Freemasonry in New York is very different to freemasonry in Alabama, and both are quite different to freemasonry in England. One should be no less surprised at the Italians struggling to separate Lodge and State as we should at the English "obsession" with tradition, pomp and status. Much of this is more to do with local custom and practice than freemasonry itself. After all - freemasons are just everyday people drawn from the local community.

Originally posted by Trinityman
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

 

Italian freemasonry has a complex and continuing history of interference in politics, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of them were infiltrated by the Mafia.

True.

Here's a bit of info from scholars Peter T. Schneider and Jane C. Schneider, Reversible Destiny: Mafia, Antimafia, and the Struggle for Palermo, (University of California Press: 2003). From pp. 75-77 alone, we find the following:

• "[T]he plotters of the 1970s [Borghese] coup ... forged their anticommunist alliance by transforming certain masonic lodges into meeting places" (75)
  
• Important Mob boss Salvatore Greco ('The Engineer') is said to have "joined the Garibaldi Lodge in 1946." Another mobster (Antonino Cottone), a relative of the latter, was known to have been a member of another lodge from '44-'56. (76)
  
• Another mafioso-mason was Nino Salvo; his "brother Alberto also belonged." As "the Corleonesi gained ascendancy in the 1980s, Riina engaged a Palermitan, Pino Mandalari, as his accountant and business advisor. Both Mandalari and Siino, his 'minister of public works,' were at once masons and collusive with the mafia." (76)
  
• "[M]asons wanted to form a coalition with the mafia's highest-ranking members ... Michele Greco (cousin of Salvatore) and Bontade himself were chosen from ... Palermo, Pippo Calderone ...from Catania." (76)
  
• "According to the former grandmaster of the Grande Oriente, Giuliano DiBernardo, during the years 1976-80, mafiosi competed to become masons ... it was the drug mafia's way of approaching and infiltrating power." (76)
  
• "[I]deologues were joining the super-secret lodges and so were mafiosi." (76)
  
• During the "long 1980s" the names of masonic lodges became "watchwords in the press." Readers of the papers knew, for instance, that "the sign, 'Centro Sociologico Italiano,' posted on the door of a palazzo ... is actually a cover for five lodges that hold their meetings inside. The secret lodges in Trapani, the second most significant 'mafia city,' meet under the cover of the Circolo Scontrino ..." (77)
  
• The Antimafia Commission reported in 1986 that "there were '2,441 men of honor [Mafiosi]...distributed among 113 lodges in Sicily.' Of these, 33 [how symbolic!] were indicted or convicted, and another 335 figured in various police records." (77) [bold emphasis mine]
  
• Former mobster -turned-informant, Siino revealed the "covert lodges where bosses and politicians, businessmen and bureaucrats, sat around a table ... to divide up the public contracts, juggling the input of a wider circle of elected officials, 'red' cooperatives, Carabinieri, magistrates, and north Italian entrepreneurs." (77)
  
• The '80s also saw a "growing entanglement between 'mafia-masons' and the state-authorized secret services." (77) ... enter P2.

[edit on 21-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

I would emphasize this is not in any way the same freemasonry we practice in the US. One of the key differences between "regular" masonry and freemasonry as practiced on much of the continent is involvement in politics and religion.

Because politics and religion have nothing to do with freemasonry at a very fundamental level these Italian GLs cannot be regarded as masonic in any regular sense, despite perhaps similarities in other areas. It is quite self-evident from the results of this interference why freemasonry keeps away from such matters.

Originally posted by Trinityman
I would emphasize this is not in any way the same freemasonry we practice in the US.

I realize that.

It is quite self-evident from the results of this interference why freemasonry keeps away from such matters.

Or, rather, why it should.

And just to be clear, in Italy we are talking about infiltration and subjugation, and criminal activities above and beyond anything political or religious. I highly doubt that it has anything to do with just allowing politics to be discussed in Lodge. The society itself is ill. It is corrupt to its core. Factions have even bombed their own citizens in order to cause fear and to pin it on the other side. Sickening.


[edit on 21-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

It's my understanding that most, if not all, of the people cited on this thread currently under indictment or implicated who are "Masons" are, in fact, members of clandestine lodges. Italy has a long history of having clandestine Lodges whose members sometimes participate in criminal activities.

Although these people are not legitimate Masons, the public ofdten fails to recognize the difference, and they therefore tarnish the good name of Masonry. Simply put, if they are not listed on the rolls of the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy, they're not real Masons.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Or, rather, why it should.

No. Why it does.

And just to be clear, in Italy we are talking about infiltration and subjugation, and criminal activities above and beyond anything political or religious. I highly doubt that it has anything to do with just allowing politics to be discussed in Lodge. The society itself is ill. It is corrupt to its core. Factions have even bombed their own citizens in order to cause fear and to pin it on the other side. Sickening.

Italy is as Italy does. I don't pretend to understand the mindset. Italians are passionate alright but don't seem to have mastered the art of effective and stable government.

As far as Italian freemasonry is concerned - I would ask you - "what's in a name?" If it calls itself a duck but barks there's a clue as to what it really is. Practicing true antient freemasonry is not just a case of calling yourself a freemason and setting up a Grand Lodge. There are principles to be followed. I'm sure you are aware of the rise of "alternative" freemasonry on the Continent in the 1870s. I'm sure you are also aware of the comprehensive rejection of these activities by regular masonry.

To claim that problems with Italian freemasonry is because it is Freemasonry rather than because it is Italian is short-sighted and rather ignores the evidence of the behavior and actions of:

(a) non-Italian freemasons, and
(b) Italian non-freemasons, as well as
(c) regular Italian freemasons

Originally posted by Masonic Light
public ofdten fails to recognize the difference, and they therefore tarnish the good name of Masonry

Sorry, not gonna work. You clean your own house.

The public has nothing to do with them naming themselves "Masons," or that they hold cabals in Lodges that claim to be practicing Freemasonry.

Nuances and semantics are for masonic-nerds. We really don't care. If it it has a big G on the front ... well, you know.

[edit on 21-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

Originally posted by Trinityman
To claim that problems with Italian freemasonry is because it is Freemasonry rather than because it is Italian is short-sighted

My God Man. Why are you putting words in my mouth! You really have to stoip assuming .. you know what they say about assuming.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Originally posted by Trinityman
To claim that problems with Italian freemasonry is because it is Freemasonry rather than because it is Italian is short-sighted

My God Man. Why are you putting words in my mouth! You really have to stoip assuming .. you know what they say about assuming.

What on earth are you talking about? Here are your words exactly...

The society itself is ill.

In the context of the sentence it appeared you were talking about freemasonry. If you were talking about Italian society then I apologize for making an ASS of U and ME.

You really should be more clear

Originally posted by Trinityman
If you were talking about Italian society then I apologize for making an ASS of U and ME.

Uhh, apology accepted ... because, yes, I was talking about Italian society, that it's corrupt to its core, that it bombs and maims its own citizens; and because of it, Italian Freemasonry is bound to be just as disgustingly perverse.

[edit on 21-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]