Sorry i dont see the united states being provoked by any nation.I remember back 3 years ago,someone in the pentagon stating we would go to war over
interest in protecting taiwan.
Why does everyone think China is such a military and nuclear threat?, page 2
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reply posted on 24-5-2008 @ 04:10 PM by donwhite
reply to post by alienstar
The US 7th Fleet has been the watchdog for Taiwan since 1949. It is the largest of the forward-deployed U.S. fleets, with 50–60 ships, 350 aircraft and 60,000 Navy and Marine Corps personnel. The two major military scenarios in which the Seventh Fleet would be used would be in case of conflict in Korea or a conflict between People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan) in the Taiwan Strait. en.wikipedia.org...
As 1949 drew to a close, the famous Eighth Route Army of Mao Zedong and leader of the CCP - Chinese Communist Party - was about to triumph over their long-time foe, the Nationalists led by Chang Kai-shek, successor to Sun Yat Sen and head of the KMT - Kuomintang Party.
Under the protection of the US Seventh Fleet, the Nationalists fled to Formosa - Portugese for beautiful island - which had been occupied by Japan from 1895 to 1945. The islanders were both pacifists and unarmed. Native Formosans were neither PRO communists nor ANTI nationalists. Much like the Palestinian Arabs the prior year (1948), forces outside their control were irrevocably changing their lives. And similarly, without prior consultation of the effected people. Ah but such is life. See Note 1.
The Korean War began on June 25, 1950. Barely 8 months after the PLA - People’s Liberation Army - had decisively defeated the Nationalists. When the UN Forces under Gen. MacArthur pushed the North Koreans out of South Korea and up to the Yalu River, the Chinese warned the US at least 3 times NOT to come closer to their border than 50 kilometers or some say, 25 miles.
The UN Forces ignored those warnings. There are pictures of US soldiers dipping their feet into the Yalu River. Gen. MacArthur wanted to attack China and to bring Nationalists soldiers up from Taiwan to enter the fight to expel the Communists from China. Gen. MacArthur intended to rely on US using nuclear bombs to assure our victory over the Chinese and the restoration of Chafing Kai-shek to power. President Truman fired Gen. MacArthur for his willful failure to follow orders.
Epilogue. Taiwan Nationalists reconcile with China
Beijing: April 30, 2005. Hu Jintao, the Chinese president and Lien Chan, the leader of the opposition Nationalist Party in Taiwan, formally ended decades of hostility with a nationally televised handshake Friday and pledged to work together to undermine Taiwan's independence movement. The last time the leader of the Nationalists met the leader of the Communists was in 1945 in the wartime redoubt of Chongqing, when Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong made a final, failed bid to reach a cease-fire.
Note 1. Right of determination.
Charter of the United Nations, Preamble
Article 1. The Purposes of the United Nations are: Section. 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace . . “
Sorry I don’t see the United States being provoked by any nation remember. Back 3 years ago, someone in the Pentagon stating we would go to war over interest in protecting Taiwan.
The US 7th Fleet has been the watchdog for Taiwan since 1949. It is the largest of the forward-deployed U.S. fleets, with 50–60 ships, 350 aircraft and 60,000 Navy and Marine Corps personnel. The two major military scenarios in which the Seventh Fleet would be used would be in case of conflict in Korea or a conflict between People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan) in the Taiwan Strait. en.wikipedia.org...
As 1949 drew to a close, the famous Eighth Route Army of Mao Zedong and leader of the CCP - Chinese Communist Party - was about to triumph over their long-time foe, the Nationalists led by Chang Kai-shek, successor to Sun Yat Sen and head of the KMT - Kuomintang Party.
Under the protection of the US Seventh Fleet, the Nationalists fled to Formosa - Portugese for beautiful island - which had been occupied by Japan from 1895 to 1945. The islanders were both pacifists and unarmed. Native Formosans were neither PRO communists nor ANTI nationalists. Much like the Palestinian Arabs the prior year (1948), forces outside their control were irrevocably changing their lives. And similarly, without prior consultation of the effected people. Ah but such is life. See Note 1.
The Korean War began on June 25, 1950. Barely 8 months after the PLA - People’s Liberation Army - had decisively defeated the Nationalists. When the UN Forces under Gen. MacArthur pushed the North Koreans out of South Korea and up to the Yalu River, the Chinese warned the US at least 3 times NOT to come closer to their border than 50 kilometers or some say, 25 miles.
The UN Forces ignored those warnings. There are pictures of US soldiers dipping their feet into the Yalu River. Gen. MacArthur wanted to attack China and to bring Nationalists soldiers up from Taiwan to enter the fight to expel the Communists from China. Gen. MacArthur intended to rely on US using nuclear bombs to assure our victory over the Chinese and the restoration of Chafing Kai-shek to power. President Truman fired Gen. MacArthur for his willful failure to follow orders.
Epilogue. Taiwan Nationalists reconcile with China
Beijing: April 30, 2005. Hu Jintao, the Chinese president and Lien Chan, the leader of the opposition Nationalist Party in Taiwan, formally ended decades of hostility with a nationally televised handshake Friday and pledged to work together to undermine Taiwan's independence movement. The last time the leader of the Nationalists met the leader of the Communists was in 1945 in the wartime redoubt of Chongqing, when Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong made a final, failed bid to reach a cease-fire.
Note 1. Right of determination.
Charter of the United Nations, Preamble
Article 1. The Purposes of the United Nations are: Section. 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace . . “
reply posted on 25-5-2008 @ 10:36 AM by donwhite
reply to post by haidian
You should know the Republican Party and most of its leaders are strongly ANTI-UN. The Republicans "killed" the League of Nations in 1918. The Republicans were isolationists in the 1930s all during the rise to power of Fascists in Europe. The Republicans opposed the United Nations in 1945. Ronald Reagan - the Philosopher General of the Republicans - opposed the UN. Bush Sr worked with the UN. He is the exception. Bush Jr "hates" the uN. Look at the man he sent there despite him being unable to get Senate confirmation, John Bolton.
Who is the No. 1 UN charter abuser by sending troops to a lot of places without UN permission?
You should know the Republican Party and most of its leaders are strongly ANTI-UN. The Republicans "killed" the League of Nations in 1918. The Republicans were isolationists in the 1930s all during the rise to power of Fascists in Europe. The Republicans opposed the United Nations in 1945. Ronald Reagan - the Philosopher General of the Republicans - opposed the UN. Bush Sr worked with the UN. He is the exception. Bush Jr "hates" the uN. Look at the man he sent there despite him being unable to get Senate confirmation, John Bolton.
reply posted on 25-5-2008 @ 10:56 AM by donwhite
reply to post by haidian
I take issue with the “absolute” rule proposition. Despite our many failures from 1945 until the present, the world on the whole is still better off in 2008 than it was in 1941. We still have a very long way to go and our progress is uneven. I have never held ill will towards China or Chinese people. Heck, it was mainly Chinese laborers who built the western leg of the first continental railroad in the 1860s. That was the most difficult leg, over 2 mountain chains.
I often feel very lonesome when I say I support revolutions such as the Chinese under Mao Zedong. And if making rebellions are akin to making omelettes, you can’t make either without cracking some eggs. It’s the nature of things. I don’t count China’s involvement in the Korean War (1950-1953) as aggression. Based on the well known views of Gen. MacArthur towards Mao and Chiang, China was wise to warn the UN Forces not to approach the Yalu River. The NK Army had been completely destroyed long before we moved up to the Yalu.
As for Taiwan, I’d like to see the people living there have a Jimmy Carter monitored referendum to decide between 1) joining mainland China, 2) remaining as is, or 3) becoming a free and independent country.
The issue of Tibet aside, I agree China has not aggressed since 1949. And the PLA is not equipped or trained to do so today.
[edit on 5/25/2008 by donwhite]
On this planet, might is right is still the absolute rule. China is not strong enough, so we are always"wrong." The only way to make everything right is to develop the country. After a series of China relevant issues happened around the world, Chinese people now are getting increasingly aware of that.
I take issue with the “absolute” rule proposition. Despite our many failures from 1945 until the present, the world on the whole is still better off in 2008 than it was in 1941. We still have a very long way to go and our progress is uneven. I have never held ill will towards China or Chinese people. Heck, it was mainly Chinese laborers who built the western leg of the first continental railroad in the 1860s. That was the most difficult leg, over 2 mountain chains.
I often feel very lonesome when I say I support revolutions such as the Chinese under Mao Zedong. And if making rebellions are akin to making omelettes, you can’t make either without cracking some eggs. It’s the nature of things. I don’t count China’s involvement in the Korean War (1950-1953) as aggression. Based on the well known views of Gen. MacArthur towards Mao and Chiang, China was wise to warn the UN Forces not to approach the Yalu River. The NK Army had been completely destroyed long before we moved up to the Yalu.
As for Taiwan, I’d like to see the people living there have a Jimmy Carter monitored referendum to decide between 1) joining mainland China, 2) remaining as is, or 3) becoming a free and independent country.
The issue of Tibet aside, I agree China has not aggressed since 1949. And the PLA is not equipped or trained to do so today.
[edit on 5/25/2008 by donwhite]
reply posted on 25-5-2008 @ 11:30 AM by haidian
reply to post by donwhite
although i dont agree with you on some issues, i can feel that you are a reasonable person and your heart is in the right place.but there are many narrow minded and self centered people here,they are so opinionated and refuse to see anything that may contradict their belief.everyday i spend half and half time to read both chinese and foreign reports.stay eqaul time on chinese and foreign websites.by being informed in two different ways can i do the comparison and analysis.none so blind as those who will not see.
although i dont agree with you on some issues, i can feel that you are a reasonable person and your heart is in the right place.but there are many narrow minded and self centered people here,they are so opinionated and refuse to see anything that may contradict their belief.everyday i spend half and half time to read both chinese and foreign reports.stay eqaul time on chinese and foreign websites.by being informed in two different ways can i do the comparison and analysis.none so blind as those who will not see.
reply posted on 25-5-2008 @ 02:01 PM by donwhite
reply to post by haidian
Globalization. From 1977.* An international phenomenon that slipped up on Americans. We were ‘King of the Hill’ for so long that it was not in our repertoire to think of ourselves as no longer the No. 1 manufacturing country. Between the 1970s and the 2000s the US lost 25-30 million good paying blue collar jobs. The bulk of our unionized labor force suddenly found itself unemployed.
Domestically, Japanese car makers came here and paid $14 an hour for $20-$22 an hour domestic car making work. Worse, non union foreign car makers offered fringe benefits worth $6-$8 an hour, whereas unions had accepted $20 an hour fringe benefits in lieu of immediate pay raises.
The old manufacturers that employed the union men and women simply moved out of country. It did not happen in a day. We have never had a genuine public debate over or general discussion about what if anything should be done to stop the bleeding - losing a $20 an hour job and getting an $8 an hour job in its place - or the outright dying. Our leaders give us mostly slogans and generalized promises to make it “all better.” Or they rant about undocumented workers.
Many of our workers were too old or were ill prepared to become re-employed after their company “outsourced” the products they once made. We are just beginning to realize how devastating the process has been, not only to the individuals, but to the country. A whole generation of upwardly mobile workers were displaced. Regrettably, those leaders who worship at the altar of the so-called Free Market - say Republicans - offered neither help nor sympathy to the newly unemployed. They know but will not say it out loud, “the old guys will die off soon enough and the problem will solve itself!”
But what the hey, that’s capitalism at its best! The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Sort of like it’s GOD’s Will!
*I date the fundamental change in Chinese government policy allowing outside capital to "invest" in or "partner" in China from 1977.
[edit on 5/25/2008 by donwhite]
although I don’t agree with you on some issues, I can feel that you are a reasonable person and your heart is in the right place. but there are many narrow minded and self centered people here, they are so opinionated and refuse to see anything that may contradict their belief. everyday I spend half and half time to read both Chinese and foreign reports. stay equal time on Chinese and foreign websites. by being informed in two different ways can I do the comparison and analysis. none so blind as those who will not see.
Globalization. From 1977.* An international phenomenon that slipped up on Americans. We were ‘King of the Hill’ for so long that it was not in our repertoire to think of ourselves as no longer the No. 1 manufacturing country. Between the 1970s and the 2000s the US lost 25-30 million good paying blue collar jobs. The bulk of our unionized labor force suddenly found itself unemployed.
Domestically, Japanese car makers came here and paid $14 an hour for $20-$22 an hour domestic car making work. Worse, non union foreign car makers offered fringe benefits worth $6-$8 an hour, whereas unions had accepted $20 an hour fringe benefits in lieu of immediate pay raises.
The old manufacturers that employed the union men and women simply moved out of country. It did not happen in a day. We have never had a genuine public debate over or general discussion about what if anything should be done to stop the bleeding - losing a $20 an hour job and getting an $8 an hour job in its place - or the outright dying. Our leaders give us mostly slogans and generalized promises to make it “all better.” Or they rant about undocumented workers.
Many of our workers were too old or were ill prepared to become re-employed after their company “outsourced” the products they once made. We are just beginning to realize how devastating the process has been, not only to the individuals, but to the country. A whole generation of upwardly mobile workers were displaced. Regrettably, those leaders who worship at the altar of the so-called Free Market - say Republicans - offered neither help nor sympathy to the newly unemployed. They know but will not say it out loud, “the old guys will die off soon enough and the problem will solve itself!”
But what the hey, that’s capitalism at its best! The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Sort of like it’s GOD’s Will!
*I date the fundamental change in Chinese government policy allowing outside capital to "invest" in or "partner" in China from 1977.
[edit on 5/25/2008 by donwhite]
reply posted on 25-5-2008 @ 05:58 PM by donwhite
reply to post by IchiNiSan
Thanks for the stars, Mr IchiNiSan. I never go with the flow. I have a picture of myself at the DMZ - Demilitarized Zone - in Korea taken in late 1953, at Panmunjon. I was a young Air Force type stationed at Kimpo AB - K14. North of Seoul. There is a wire stretched across the road carrying a sign that says, Warning Do Not Enter. I’m standing with one foot on the good side of the wire and one foot on the bad side of the wire. I never did well with rules.
The highly regarded historian and author Barbara Tuchman (1912-1989) has written many books. If you have the opportunity, you will find her book “Stilwell and the American Experience in China: a biography of Joseph Stilwell,” 1970, presents a very revealing picture of the often frustrating American involvement with the KMT in the years of World War 2.
I have come to the conclusion that Western religious missionaries have been the most devastating ‘agents de provocateur’ the West ever employed against non-Euro types. I would ban missionaries outside their own country.
Thanks for the stars, Mr IchiNiSan. I never go with the flow. I have a picture of myself at the DMZ - Demilitarized Zone - in Korea taken in late 1953, at Panmunjon. I was a young Air Force type stationed at Kimpo AB - K14. North of Seoul. There is a wire stretched across the road carrying a sign that says, Warning Do Not Enter. I’m standing with one foot on the good side of the wire and one foot on the bad side of the wire. I never did well with rules.
The highly regarded historian and author Barbara Tuchman (1912-1989) has written many books. If you have the opportunity, you will find her book “Stilwell and the American Experience in China: a biography of Joseph Stilwell,” 1970, presents a very revealing picture of the often frustrating American involvement with the KMT in the years of World War 2.
I have come to the conclusion that Western religious missionaries have been the most devastating ‘agents de provocateur’ the West ever employed against non-Euro types. I would ban missionaries outside their own country.
reply posted on 26-5-2008 @ 01:15 PM by IchiNiSan
reply to post by donwhite
It still amazes me on how great internet can be. Here I am talking with a guy from a totally different generation, who even fought in a war against China. And yet can be so clear-minded and especially fair about the topics raised. Not neccessary meaning I agree on everything, but this is one the reasons why I would keep on coming back
I will certainly try to get a copy of that title by Barbara Tuchman when I am back in Hong Kong or just get on Amazon. I am getting more and more interested in Modern China history ever since I came (back) to China from Europe. More than ever there is a drive to learn about the current Chinese society and understand it better. (Spent most of time on Ancient China history). So appreciate any foreign literature recommendation.
Interestingly in another Chinese forum we are discussing this missonary "conclusion" of yours, guess what the title of the thread is called, it is something like "Liberal Democracy/Human Rights, the new Opium - Activists, the 21st century missonaries." Or something like that
So you can guess
what many of us think about missionaries. 
[edit on 26/5/08 by IchiNiSan]
It still amazes me on how great internet can be. Here I am talking with a guy from a totally different generation, who even fought in a war against China. And yet can be so clear-minded and especially fair about the topics raised. Not neccessary meaning I agree on everything, but this is one the reasons why I would keep on coming back
I will certainly try to get a copy of that title by Barbara Tuchman when I am back in Hong Kong or just get on Amazon. I am getting more and more interested in Modern China history ever since I came (back) to China from Europe. More than ever there is a drive to learn about the current Chinese society and understand it better. (Spent most of time on Ancient China history). So appreciate any foreign literature recommendation.
I have come to the conclusion that Western religious missionaries have been the most devastating ‘agents de provocateur’ the West ever employed against non-Euro types. I would ban missionaries outside their own country.
Interestingly in another Chinese forum we are discussing this missonary "conclusion" of yours, guess what the title of the thread is called, it is something like "Liberal Democracy/Human Rights, the new Opium - Activists, the 21st century missonaries." Or something like that
So you can guess
what many of us think about missionaries. [edit on 26/5/08 by IchiNiSan]
reply posted on 27-5-2008 @ 11:43 PM by haidian
reply to post by nexusmagazine
i really appreciate your comment about china.it is very objective and reasonable,but for the states,although on my past posts i listed a lot of wrongdoings of the country,i dont feel comfrotable if anybody portrays that country as evil.i lived in the states for several years,it is like my second hometown,people there are very nice,warm hearted ,polite and eager to offer help.in terms of the overall quality of the population,i have to admit ameria is way ahead of china and is among the top ones in the world.
but for china issues,i have to say americans are ill informed,the country's media is so biased against china,but i dont blame the people for their misconceptions about china.the very reason why some american people hate china so much is because of the country's media.and i believe those people are very genuine and kind .people dont care other people will never show any interest in anything besides the one relevant to themselvs.and those people they really care about others,they feel for the ones who suffered.their only mistake is they are being ill informed about china.they dont know what china is like today and how the life is here in china.but they are still the people with pure essence of human kindness.
and i dont think american government is evil either,they only cant get rid of the old mentality towards china.some politicans are closed minded,refuse to see thing through new perceptives.and they influenced a lot of people and organizations in the states.but america is a mature democracy and very successful in almost all aspects,it is still a magnetic good example that inspires many others to follow.
i really appreciate your comment about china.it is very objective and reasonable,but for the states,although on my past posts i listed a lot of wrongdoings of the country,i dont feel comfrotable if anybody portrays that country as evil.i lived in the states for several years,it is like my second hometown,people there are very nice,warm hearted ,polite and eager to offer help.in terms of the overall quality of the population,i have to admit ameria is way ahead of china and is among the top ones in the world.
but for china issues,i have to say americans are ill informed,the country's media is so biased against china,but i dont blame the people for their misconceptions about china.the very reason why some american people hate china so much is because of the country's media.and i believe those people are very genuine and kind .people dont care other people will never show any interest in anything besides the one relevant to themselvs.and those people they really care about others,they feel for the ones who suffered.their only mistake is they are being ill informed about china.they dont know what china is like today and how the life is here in china.but they are still the people with pure essence of human kindness.
and i dont think american government is evil either,they only cant get rid of the old mentality towards china.some politicans are closed minded,refuse to see thing through new perceptives.and they influenced a lot of people and organizations in the states.but america is a mature democracy and very successful in almost all aspects,it is still a magnetic good example that inspires many others to follow.
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