The ATS Issues Thread

reply to post by HIFIGUY

You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate. You will not solicit personal information from any member. You will not use information gathered form this website to harass, abuse or harm other people.

The terms of use apply to “You” not the site owners. Obviously you have a hard time with reading comprehension as the wording of the terms of use clearly use the understood “you”.

In todays day and age, a corporation is considered an individual entity.

If smartech is indeed a corporation, their disclosure may be considered a breech of privacy.

Further investigation has been undertaken.

When did Smartech sign a privacy agreement with the either the internet (something that you cannot do despite what Al Gore might say), or the owners of this site? I suggest that the further action that you take is to keep your smart butt shut because I am getting tired of hearing you talking nonsense out of your @$$.

If anything, why doesn’t Smartech file a formal complaint against this site so that we can then use that formal complain to sue Smartech itself for violation of the user agreement, something that you signed, not the owners.

But of course, like most lawyer bullcrap, you obviously don’t want to expose yourself to the real crimes committed here. That would be no one other than you of course. But by all means, go ahead and have Smartech file a formal complaint and watch the users here use that complaint as ammo to destroy the republican election on every liberal news media in the world.

So, uh, do you still want to play ball with your hilarious so-called investigation, or are you just going to shut your damn mouth and play nice like a good, and smart, propagandist?


[edit on 13-9-2008 by Hot_Wings]

I am not staff, admin, mod, nor even an archivist or SME. I am just a member. I have not had any communication with any staff member regarding this issue. Hopefully, therefore, neither ATS nor any staff can be held responsible or accountable for what I am about to say. It's just my opinion as an opinionated member.

The owners and staff of this site are incredibly patient, unfailingly polite and courteous, and are apparently possessed of boundless self-control and self-discipline. I am not.

Guess what, people. ATS isn't a public library, or a public street. It's a privately owned website. Your account here is granted to you as a privilege by the owners, and your access and ability to post is also a privilege granted by the owners.

If I owned a website, people like you would be summarily kicked out on their collective rears for disrespect, rudeness, ingratitude, and rabble rousing.

It's my house, I would say to you, and therefore my rules. If you don't like it, go spend your time somewhere else. You have no intrinsic right to be here, and constitutional American freedoms of speech and the like do not apply to private property, be it my house or my website.

If you are dissatisfied with ATS and question the trustworthiness of the site or its staff, just leave! That will resolve all of your issues and you won't have to "worry" about the safety, sanctity, impartiality, fairness, or security of ATS ever again. Problems all solved. Good bye, good luck, best wishes.

Questions and temporary concerns are one thing. I recently had one myself; I questioned a supermod about why a thread had been closed. He reviewed his action, concluded that he'd made a mistake, and re-opened the thread with apologies.

This constant whining, complaining, accusations, and veiled threats are something quite different. It becomes obvious even to me, a relatively new member of ATS who barely has half a clue about what's going on here, that you are simply malcontents who wish to cause trouble and embarrassment, and tarnish or damage the reputation of ATS and its staff. You reveal to me nothing about the character of ATS, but plenty about your own character.

I have a suggestion as to how YOU can improve the quality of ATS - leave it. You're like a diner in a restaurant who complains loudly about the food, the service, and the prices and yet seems unwilling to go somewhere else to eat. It quickly becomes obvious to the other customers as well as to the staff and owner(s) that your true agenda is to cause disruption and rabble rouse, as well as perhaps trying to get special treatment or a free meal from the staff as they try to minimize the disturbance. You aren't fooling anyone, and hopefully you aren't ignorant enough to be fooling yourself. The problem is your own attitude, not ATS.

Why am I saying this? Much like the innocent bystander dining in the same restaurant where your disturbance of the peace isn't quite possible to ignore, you annoy me. I'm tired of listening to it. If you have an issue, take it to U2U or use the handy Complain / Suggestion feature in the MemCenter. The only possible reason to keep waving this supposedly dirty laundry in this public thread is a contemptible effort to force the staff and owners of ATS to politely, courteously, and patiently respond to your manufactured concerns, over and over again, while you desperately hope that one of them will make a mistake and do or say something in response to your provoking that you can hold them accountable for. It's a despicable and childish tactic.

ATS is a hugely informative, interesting, entertaining, and expertly moderated site, and by far the best place for civil debate, discussion, and exploration of ideas that I've ever found. If you don't like it, I'm really sorry. I do, so please take your whiny self elsewhere where your negativity will no longer affect me and my fellow satisfied members of ATS.

Heiky, you don't really mean what you say, you just enjoy the attention you are getting. Carry on then.

Originally posted by Hot_Wings
The terms of use apply to “You” not the site owners.

You may want to inform yourself on what it takes to become TrustE certified, and yes, the site owners are held to rigorous standards in regards to what they can and cannot share under their membership.

reply to post by Heike

Originally posted by Heike
It's my house, I would say to you, and therefore my rules.

Well, is not your house, but you are entitled to your opinion.

If your not familiar with how Trust E works, heres a link so you can read and learn.

truste.org...

Anyone visiting this site is protected by TrustE security guidelines.

This is about ATS networks selectively targeting and censoring and using disclosure when it suits their needs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't confuse your opinion with technical compliance. In this case, the site owner was laying down the law in terms of posts and a supposed infiltration, and I found it comical and ironic that his own post was violating his own promise to support our privacy.

Peace


[edit on 14-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Don't confuse your opinion with technical compliance. In this case, the site owner was laying down the law in terms of posts and a supposed infiltration, and I found it comical and ironic that his own post was violating his own promise to support our privacy.

Actually, if you would read the privacy policy and ready Bill's posts again, this time without an agenda you'll find that there is no violation.

Don't confuse your opinion with technical compliance, as you said. Your opinion, that ATS has violated its own promise is incorrect. Perhaps if you take a step back and reread things you will realize that.

As Bill said, if you have a complaint, file it with Truste.

You don't appear to be very interested in listening to the explanations offered here, so what can we do.

Originally posted by Djarums
You don't appear to be very interested in listening to the explanations offered here, so what can we do.

Originally posted by Djarums
As Bill said, if you have a complaint, file it with Truste.

Because this Web site wants to demonstrate its commitment to your privacy, it has agreed to disclose its information practices and have its privacy practices reviewed for compliance by TRUSTe.

That hammer has already been put to the anvil.

Peace

Like I said, you’re so full of crap.

• Disclose their information gathering and dissemination practices;
• Disclose their information gathering and dissemination practices;
• Give consumers choice to limit any secondary uses of their personal information through opt-in or opt-out;
• Provide users with access to their personal information to correct any inaccuracies; and
• Ensure that reasonable security mechanisms are being used to protect the data that is collected.

Let’s define what a corporation is shall we:

A corporation is a legal entity (technically, a juristic person) which has a legal personality distinct from those of its members.

Taken from your own web site, you list yourself as a corporation.

AirNet Group, Inc. is the convergence of two dynamic, exciting and synergistic technology companies. In 2002, Airnet converged with SMARTTech Corporation whose expertise in Web-Hosting, Audio & Video internet streaming media, Bulk E-Mail broadcasting and hosting, and SPAM and Virus filtering was heads above technological developments.

As I said before, “you” the individual is the one who is the customer of this site, not your corporation. And you are the one, not your corporation, that has agreed to the site policies.

As well, is your post is an admission that Smartech employees are posting political propaganda for the Republican Party on this web site as a contractual or paid agreement to do so as a customer of said Republican Party?

Are you admitting that your employees are posting on this web site as “their job” for your client, the Republican Party? Guess what pal, I think this alone is enough information that I need to send it too every liberal news paper, and television studio in the country.

And no, this site would be in no way responsible because it was you, personally, who admitted to Smartech involvement in posting political propaganda for a major political party. I wonder how secure your job would be if this all came out and that you were the one responsible for it all.

It’s ok man, you can always be a janitor somewhere.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by Hot_Wings]

Good luck with that.

I'm sure it'll be very productive.

Originally posted by Hot_Wings
And no, this site would be in no way responsible because it was you, personally, who admitted to Smartech involvement in posting political propaganda for a major political party. I wonder how secure your job would be if this all came out and that you were the one responsible for it all.

It’s ok man, you can always be a janitor somewhere.

I admitted to smartech involvement? This is exactly what people are complaining about on ATS. People not reading threads, or understanding the nature of the post, and your right there.

Smartech was brought to all of our attention by a post by skepticoverlord.

Plain and simple. I could care less who they are, but thought it interesting that a submitting network would be put out on front street by a site owner.

Peace

[edit on 14-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Obviously, you took the bait.

ATS privacy, Myth or Fact thread closure

In regards to the below thread link:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And then my subsequent thread regarding a violation of privacy after we have been given a a privacy assurance by ATS

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Thanks for closing my thread.

Is ATS in violation of its own terms of use when it calls out a network feed such as the one SkepticOverlord did in one of his posts that i linked in the thread above?

The key word in here that you used is “we”. What “we” are you talking about? “Your” private information has not been compromised at all. Smartech, as an entity, is not a member of this forum and so its privacy policy does not apply whatsoever. This is why my attacks have finally got you to take the bait. The fact that you have no case of grievance whatsoever, and that you are indeed an employee of the Smartech Company.

As for me, my job sucks, I would almost like to lose my job.

But as for you, let me see. Do me this one favor. Please do not attack this site anymore and I will just go about my happy little way and so can you. As for the Republican Party, rest assured that many of us do our best to promote conservative ideas. If the Republican Party is pinning their hopes of election on a conspiracy forum then they are having false hopes my friend.

If I were you, I would not open myself or Smartech to possible scrutiny over this dead issue. Just let it be man and we can all go about our happy little ways.

Have a good day.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by Hot_Wings]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
If your not familiar with how Trust E works, heres a link so you can read and learn.
truste.org...

It seems like your being purposefully obstinate to make some unusual point based on an errant understanding of online privacy.

Our privacy policy, and the certification of TRUSTe, relates to the inappropriate disclosure of personally identifiable information. Network access points are not personally identifiable information, and are often part of the publicly disclosed traffic numbers of tens-of-thousands of different websites.

Good luck with that.

I'm sure it'll be very productive.

Of course it would not have been productive. But that really wasn’t the point. The point was that I was calling his bluff that Smartech was somehow going to file a formal grievance against ATS for some kind of breech of policy.

His stance had no grounds whatsoever, and everyone knew that, including him. But he kept on because he was very upset about the new political posting policies that have been adopted by ATS. I actually agree with the premise of his complaint against the new posting policies. However, his privacy attacks were completely off the mark and uncalled for. He just chose to attack the site itself instead of properly formulating his arguments against the policy issue that was the real basis of his complaints.

Now, after attempting to defend the site and its actions myself, I will now formulate my own grievances against this new policy.

Pointing out that Smartech was the source of a host of new site traffic was completely uncalled for. Did it violate some privacy agreement, of course not. That’s why I defended ATS. However, the actions of pointing the finger towards a company for the separate actions of its employees is wrong. You attacked Smartech because you labeled them as “Republican.” Since when does ATS ban groups of members or their posts solely because of a perceived party affiliation?

Do you highlight all the traffic that this site gets from some mosque in the middle east? Of course not. Do you expose that the New York Times may have trolls on this site? No. But instead, you have singled out this company and targeted its employees as working for the Republican Party and trolling this site specifically to spread political propaganda. That was wrong. You should not have held Smartech responsible for the actions of its employees.

The same reason that the privacy policy does not apply to Smartech is the same reason that you should not have singled them out as the “cause” of many negative political posts. I have never before seen ATS single out a corporate entity as violating posting standards. This is why the reverse argument that one of its employees had against you also fails.

This is a case of two wrongs don’t make a right.

I defended this site against the false claim that it was responsible for violating a privacy policy. But I cannot defend it against the very real claim that this site has possibly defamed or slandered another corporate entity. Think very carefully about what you accused them of. It was a site owner who did this, not a regular poster like me. You made a company out to be responsible for the actions of individuals. You also claimed that this company was doing what it did on behalf of the Republican Party. That was wrong.

I enjoy posting here. But obviously this election has gotten people way stressed out lately. The policy against new political posting is what made both sides here commit errors. It happens, and I hope it just blows over. I ask that the policy concerning political posting be reexamined for its purposes and enforcement. You are asking of people, for perhaps the first time I think, to only make posts about the platform of the candidate only. That is a totalitarian policy that all but shuts down all political posting.

I can see why you did that and I can also see where this site is not based on politics at all and never should have allowed political posting. But you did allow this for a long time and many people have expected it to continue and believed it was a fundamental part of the sites traffic base. I am not just talking about posters, but advertisers as well.

Its your site and I just visit here, but I graciously ask that your political posting policy be reexamined and altered to allow for more political debate.

Thank you,

Have a good one.

reply to post by Hot_Wings

I want to address one rather small part of your "complaint"... When the smartech issue came to light I stated in our conference call that we need to do everything we can to attempt to discern if we could tell that the "other side" had a huge increase in traffic like the smartech jump.

We did and we couldn't...

Evidently the "other side" hasn't consolidated their web presence in the same manner that RNC has so we simply could not pin point any evidence that could show it.

That being said, we all agreed that "both sides" have targeted ATS, and most likely every other forum that has significant traffic, as evidenced by all the ridiculous threads we saw posted by BOTH SIDES that caused the new policy to be needed in the first place.

We are a conspiracy site first and foremost, and it is not realistic, IMHO, to think we would not point out something like the smartech data.

Those who opine that we have breached our privacy policy by doing so, (not you "Hot_Wings) are either ignorant of how stats on the internet are compiled or simply trying to stir up some lame drama because they don't have a life interesting enough to be busy with other things.

Springer...

[edit on 9-14-2008 by Springer]

Originally posted by Springer
Those who opine that we have breached our privacy policy by doing so, (not you "Hot_Wings) are either ignorant of how stats on the internet are compiled or simply trying to stir up some lame drama because they don't have a life interesting enough to be busy with other things.

Springer...

It never ceases to amaze me how ATS moderators, and admins advice us not to make personal attacks and then do so themselves.

Do as I say, but not as I do? LOL...Whoa...ok.

Smartech, inference with GOP, and the mere association without credible directive evidence is poor reporting at best for a site that promotes denial of ignorance.

Your the site posting of smartech as being a GOP affiliate and infiltrating this site was...

Originally posted by Springer
lame drama because they don't have a life interesting enough to be busy with other things

Peace



[edit on 14-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Funny because you still have yet to address the point which Bill has posted more than once.

Our privacy policy, and the certification of TRUSTe, relates to the inappropriate disclosure of personally identifiable information. Network access points are not personally identifiable information, and are often part of the publicly disclosed traffic numbers of tens-of-thousands of different websites.

Why are you ignoring this point? Is it because it deflates your entire argument?

It is you who misinterpreted the privacy policy. Instead of understanding that your initial attack was misguided, you insist on making odd threats that "further investigation has been initiated" and that sort of thing.

If you read the actual words of what you are complaining about, and you do so in a clear minded fashion you will find, very simply, that your assessment was wrong. Your threats do not concern us, because as Bill said multiple times nothing that was done violated our privacy policy and Truste will find the same thing.

Why you could not bring up your concerns in a civil way instead of jumping in with threats is absolutely beyond me.

If you would have listened to the explanation offered at the beginning you would have saved everyone involved a lot of time.

The fact that you repeatedly refuse to listen to the explanation makes me wonder what your motives are.

reply to post by Djarums


If for the sake of argument, If someone was the only user on that network, is it conceivable that their privacy could indirectly made vulnerable?

The OP of my concern was that a conclusion was made based on that network information that lead to smartech, and then further attached to the GOP.

Now, either that information was so vague that your conclusion regarding smartech is bogus, or you indeed did breech privacy.

Peace

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
If for the sake of argument, If someone was the only user on that network, is it conceivable that their privacy could indirectly made vulnerable?

How about..."if for the sake of only continuing this argument?"..

Good Lord man.....Your argument has no legs...dragging this out makes someone's intellect look less than stellar...wanna' guess who?

It's time to drop it....publishing the traffic from a specific, large network, in no way compromises anyone's privacy. I'm going to be highly amused when SkepticOverlord publishes his usual reports showing the percentage of traffic from each country, and you decide that the privacy of individual members has been compromised.

You're either fooling yourself, intentionally being obtuse, or, you're a representative of one the organizations that are alleged to be abusing these forums.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
If for the sake of argument, If someone was the only user on that network, is it conceivable that their privacy could indirectly made vulnerable?

How?

No personally identifiable information was mentioned.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Well, I might ask you the same question. How is it, that somehow you attribute smartech to the GOP with that type of non revealing information?

Peace

[edit on 14-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 14-9-2008 by elevatedone]

[edit on 14-9-2008 by elevatedone]