Debunking the Chemtrail Debunker.

Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by _Del_

 

If contrails are so common, and naturally form into snow clouds,

why do they need to do cloud seeding at all?

Give me a break, think this is my first day at school?

The snow showers at this height do not reach the ground, they fall as whats known as virga (cirrus clouds at that height) or precipitation not reaching the ground as they evaporate in warmer air as they fall.

Cloud seeding occurs in the low level clouds (eg cumulus, stratus etc). Low level clouds are the most likely to produce rain

www.abovetopsecret.com...

PS- Yeah I know its my link....sorry

Because rain doesn't occur from cirrus clouds? A basic understanding of meteorology would tell you that.

I cited the source of the photos. It's verifiable. Make the effort or don't. If you don't, it's probably best to avoid finger pointing.
Are the WWII photos fake too?

Several peer edited studies have looked at the phenomenon of persisting contrails. None of them have said anything about foreign chemical content of contrails (and yes, they discuss chemical composition of contrails).

I've yet to see you offer any proof that the contrails in question contain silver iodide.

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Oz, how do you feel about cloud seeding. Government admits to doing it.

The reporter (going to call the station and try to get a copy) who did the chemtrail report last night, said there were over 700 bills introduced
for weather modification (holding a stack of papers).

When they say, "we only sprayed 23 pounds of silver iodide, well people don't realize that what they are spraying has to be bouyant in the air, so it should weigh next to nothing, so 23 pounds, when there are trillion of particles per ounce, is a significant amount.

A five-year, $8.8 million pilot project to examine whether seeding clouds with silver iodide produces a measurable increase in snowfall over Wyoming's Medicine Bow, Sierra Madre, and Wind River mountain ranges starts this month with intensive observations of Wyoming snow clouds.

www.ucar.edu...

This is just what they are admitting to

www.naiwmc.org...

Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

Oz, how do you feel about cloud seeding. Government admits to doing it.

The reporter (going to call the station and try to get a copy) who did the chemtrail report last night, said there were over 700 bills introduced
for weather modification (holding a stack of papers).

When they say, "we only sprayed 23 pounds of silver iodide, well people don't realize that what they are spraying has to be bouyant in the air, so it should weigh next to nothing, so 23 pounds, when there are trillion of particles per ounce, is a significant amount.

A five-year, $8.8 million pilot project to examine whether seeding clouds with silver iodide produces a measurable increase in snowfall over Wyoming's Medicine Bow, Sierra Madre, and Wind River mountain ranges starts this month with intensive observations of Wyoming snow clouds.

www.ucar.edu...

This is just what they are admitting to

www.naiwmc.org...

Well I know it sort of works.....its common knowledge that there are several governments that are carrying it out, including my countries government. I know it takes place in low level clouds as they are the ones that produce the most precipitation so it has nothing to do with contrails (or as some call them chemtrails)

I am unsure about the implications on the environment, mainly beacuse there is not enough data to suggest whether or not it is doing harm. Probably better to ask a chemist or microbiologist (had minimal training in this but not enough to make a judgement)

Here is a couple of those bills

Congressman Mark Udall (D-CO) introduced H.R. 3445 in the U.S. House of Representatives on August 3, 2007. The bill would establish the weather mitigation operations and research board that would administer research and development grants in the field of weather modification. The bill is similar to S.1807, introduced by Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX) on July 17, 2007 in the U.S. Senate.

The North American Interstate Weather Modification Council has these links on their link page.

web sites.

California Department of Water Resources

Colorado Water Conservation Board

Kansas Water Office

Metropolitan Water Dist. of Southern California

Desert Research Institute

North Dakota Atmospheric Resource Board

Oklahoma Water Resources Board

Texas Dept. of Licensing and Regulation

Utah Division of Water Resources

Wyoming Water Development Commission

Weather Modification Association

Western Governor's Association

Western States Water Council

www.naiwmc.org...

Why, are they always called councils? I'm sick of councils.

Who put them in charge of our atmosphere?

I told you, it's all about water.

reply to post by OzWeatherman

I know it takes place in low level clouds as they are the ones that produce the most precipitation so it has nothing to do with contrails

Sorry, but it has to be at least -50f for condensation to form around a contrail.
That normally only happens around 30,000 ft, and then the atmosphere has to be super saturated. Normally, this only happens when flying above clouds, over an ocean, and your getting some evaporation from the sun hitting the clouds.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that.

Happens, according to scientists, about 10 out of 50,000 flights.

Changing the temperature of the surrounding atmosphere,
is the only way to consistantly produce clouds artificially, and
this IS what is happening. You guys need to stop protect your
bosses, cause it's making your kids and your kids friends sick,
dammit.

Originally posted by cutbothways
Sorry, but it has to be at least -50f for condensation to form around a contrail.
That normally only happens around 30,000 ft, and then the atmosphere has to be super saturated. Normally, this only happens when flying above clouds, over an ocean, and your getting some evaporation from the sun hitting the clouds.

You really have no idea what I do for a living do you? Hint is in the signature. Contrails can form anywhere between 22,000ft to the tropopause (where the temp stops decreasing and starts to increase). The minimum temperaturee needed for contrails to form is actually -37.5 celsius, which is much lower than -50F.

Super saturation does not occur just over oceans, it occurs everywhere. Even if it did occur over just the oceans it would get blown away by the jetstream and blown over land. What you implied is that clouds can not form over land because their is no water to evaporate, I think your atmospheric science needs a brush up on.

Happens, according to scientists, about 10 out of 50,000 flights.

Provide a source for this because this is absolutely ridiculous

Changing the temperature of the surrounding atmosphere,
is the only way to consistantly produce clouds artificially,

Wrong again. The trigger to creating artifical clouds is in the water vapour in the exhaust which super saturates the surrounding air, thus attaching itself to microscopic water droplets in the air, craeting a larger droplet that creates cloud and if it gets big enough at the lower levels, falls as rain. Thats basic meteorology. Silver idodide is used as a trigger to promote this.

Originally posted by cutbothways

If contrails are so common, and naturally form into snow clouds,

why do they need to do cloud seeding at all?

Give me a break, think this is my first day at school?

It may well be your first day at meteorology school Contrails do not naturally form snow clouds. Or rain clouds. They form cirrus - which is a high altitude cloud that does not produce any precipitation to ground level (ice crystals falling from cirrus are known as virga - these evaporate as they fall into warmer air below).

Silver iodide is used for cloud seeding aka weather modification - this involves either firing it from cannons or spraying it from aircraft into pre-existing low level clouds in order to induce precipitation earlier than would naturally occur.

There is no connection whatsoever between contrails and cloud seeding.

And if you believe that chemtrails are connected with cloud seeding then presumably you accept that those high level trails are not chemtrails after all



Edit: sorry Oz, I should have read through to the end of the thread, you've already covered all that

[edit on 6-5-2008 by Essan]

Originally posted by cutbothways
Here is a couple of those bills

Congressman Mark Udall (D-CO) introduced H.R. 3445 in the U.S. House of Representatives on August 3, 2007.

Who put them in charge of our atmosphere?

You complain about cloud seeding and then object to a bill intended to set up better controls and to study the long term effects of such operations (which, in the US, are all carried out by private companies)

Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

I know it takes place in low level clouds as they are the ones that produce the most precipitation so it has nothing to do with contrails

Sorry, but it has to be at least -50f for condensation to form around a contrail.
That normally only happens around 30,000 ft, and then the atmosphere has to be super saturated. Normally, this only happens when flying above clouds, over an ocean, and your getting some evaporation from the sun hitting the clouds.

Are we talking about contrails or cloud seeding here? There's no point in seeding contrails or any other high level cloud as they're too high up for any possible precipitation to reach the ground.

Rain comes from low levels clouds - mainly stratus. It also comes from cumulonimbus. Such clouds may be seeded to induce precipitation.

You'd be better off throwing sticks at the Moon to make it rain than seeding cirrus .....

reply to post by cutbothways


Please don't think this is an attack on you, it's not.

It's up to you to post your evidence - you're the one claiming these contrails are somehow not made up of water vapour. So far you've just poured your brain into a post and clicked "Post". You've only come up with anecdotal evidence at best. You're seeing something you don't understand, and constructing a massive, elaborate, flawed conspiracy around it in order for it to make sense to you.

So, first give us something to debunk, then we'll debunk it. Rattling on about cloud seeding and contrails, like they're related, is not making your case any stronger.

Show the 1980's movie with a contrail.

Even a 1990's movie, that shows a contrail.

I took this pic about an hour ago.

What kind of cloud is this?


It was made by this plane


It turned into this

reply to post by cutbothways


Its called cirrus.....can be formed from the spreading of contrails. If you read the link i posted earlier it explains cirrus clouds

Well actually it explains all the cloud types

It's causing the forest to look like this


It's caused by clouds that look like this, taken an hour ago.


And these stringy fiborous clouds are created by this.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
reply to post by cutbothways

 

Its called cirrus.....can be formed from the spreading of contrails. If you read the link i posted earlier it explains cirrus clouds

Well actually it explains all the cloud types

Water vapor does not hold together in strings.

What you have here is nano-fibers.

reply to post by cutbothways


Where is your proof?

Clouds at that height dont even reach the ground, its ridiculous. They have been occuring since the earth has been producing water based clouds. You just seem to ignore every argument thrown at you and have not yet provided anything to back up your claims.

Originally posted by cutbothways

Water vapor does not hold together in strings.

What you have here is nano-fibers.

Thats even more ridiculous, how do you think clouds appear?

Again you have showed no evidence to support this

Cutbothways: go and find yourself a copy of the film Battle of Britain. Watch for yourself as contrails form behind the wingtips of Spitfires and Messerschmitts as they loop and roll in simulated combat.

Oh, but then its all opticals, innit, put on by chemtrail conspirators in the editing room. Back in 1969, the year the film was made...

Tell me, O Wise One: have you ever been up in an aeroplane?

[edit on 6-5-2008 by Astyanax]

I was a crewchief on P-3 Aircraft VQ2 1989-91, also flew on a few A-3's

Flew in a C5 once, and a KC-10 tanker.

Flew Mac 10 just about everywhere in the world, and commercial all over the world also.

Been on a couple of flights, you?

Originally posted by cutbothways
I was a crewchief on P-3 Aircraft VQ2 1989-91, also flew on a few A-3's

Flew in a C5 once, and a KC-10 tanker.

Flew Mac 10 just about everywhere in the world, and commercial all over the world also.

Been on a couple of flights, you?

If you truly flew planes you would know the basic cloud types and at least a little bit of meteorology. By claiming that cirrus clouds are those nano-thingys you proved that you have no idea about upper air conditions, and saying that contrails only occur at -50F when they dont, just firthers this.

In my opinion you seem to be telling fibs

reply to post by OzWeatherman


US Navy.

San Diego Bootcamp.
Memphis (Millington) Aviation Hydraulics Structures
Jacksonville, Fla P-3 Structures-hydraulics.
VQ-2 Rota, Spain (3 1/2 yrs, flying all over Europe)
Desert Storm (King Fahd Saudi Arabia Helicopter Base, Jiddha)
EOD.

Calling me a liar?

[edit on 6-5-2008 by cutbothways]