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Debunking the Chemtrail Debunker.

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posted on May, 6 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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All that really matters is that they are spraying silver iodide into our air. It doesn't matter HOW they are doing it. Who give a rats if it's a contrail or a chemtrail bla bla bla. Fact is, THEY ARE SPRAYING SILVER IODIDE INTO OUR AIR.

www.inchem.org...
"Silver does not occur regularly in animal and human tissues but
is present in man's environment in air, water, soils and food as well
as in specific products."

en.wikipedia.org...

www.greatvistachemicals.com...

www.ranches.org...


Check this:

www.silvermedicine.org...
Cooper and Jolly (1970) in a review of the ecologic effects of silver have pointed out that the current experimental practice of seeding clouds with silver iodide to promote rainfall may lead to new hazards for both man and natural biologic systems if the practice is extended (Petering, 1976).

TOXICOLOGICAL STUDIES

Special studies on carcinogenicity

Sarcomas, malignant fibrosarcomas, fibromas, fibro-adenomas and invasions of muscle with corrective tissue were observed after implantation of foil, platelets and pellets made of silver or dental
alloy under the skin of mice and rats (Oppenheimer et al., 1956; Shubik and Hartwell, 1969) [ comparing alloys with pure silver products is certainly out of context in that colloidal silver products and silver in general has been conclusively demonstrated to be non-carcinogenic ].

First, check these links:
www.tga.gov.au...
en.wikipedia.org...-Australia-21

Then, check these:
www.thriftyfun.com...
answers.yahoo.com...
www.monstrous.com...
www.usatoday.com...
www.esa.int...
www.thefreelibrary.com...:+magnetic+dust+takes+droplets+for+a+ride-a0125830431

Go to yahoo images.
type in the following words separately.

fibroadenomas
malignant fibrosarcoma
Sarcomas
fibrosarcoma

EUGENICS? COULD THEY BE TARGETING REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS AS WELL AS CLOUD SEEDING? COULD THEY BE TRYING TO DUMB DOWN THE POPULATION AS WELL? SILVER IODIDE CAN DO ALL OF THIS.

EDIT FOR SPELLING.

[edit on 6-5-2008 by kaspermartyrphantom]




posted on May, 7 2008 @ 03:21 AM
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Originally posted by kaspermartyrphantom
All that really matters is that they are spraying silver iodide into our air. It doesn't matter HOW they are doing it. Who give a rats if it's a contrail or a chemtrail bla bla bla. Fact is, THEY ARE SPRAYING SILVER IODIDE INTO OUR AIR.


Did you read this thread at all?

Cloud seeding isn't the same as "chemtrails"




[edit on 7/0508/08 by neformore]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 05:47 AM
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have any of you guys logged on to www.airlineroutemaps.com? Look at American, Delta, United, Northwest, Continental, Southwest, UsAirways etc... Look at all of those lines...if we could somehow draw all these airline routes together on one map so they overlap one another, you could barely even see the paper when the printer spit it out. It would just about all be ink.

There are a lot of contrails out there. When the jet exaust exits it rapidly expands and condences and forms vapor that turns to ice in air temperatures that are something like 50 belo zero F. Has spraying gone on in places? sure, there is even proof of it through the freedom of information act...is all of it spraying? NO WAY! 99% of what you all are seeing is normal condensation of water vapor ran through extremely highly compressed chambers in jet engines on Boeing and Airbus air craft jet engines. The water vapor really likes to freeze up just ahead of frontal systems and stick around a while. It doesn't automatically mean a conspiracy or that we are being sprayed.



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 07:59 AM
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FAA OFFICIAL CONFIRMS AIR FORCE TANKERS CONDUCTING WEATHER MODIFICATION OVER U.S. AND CANADA

PORTLAND, Maine...A senior air traffic control manager responsible for commercial aircraft over the northeastern United States has confirmed in a second exclusive interview with radio reporter S.T. Brendt that large formations of U.S. Air Force tanker aircraft are conducting ongoing operations over the USA and Canada.

The sky-obscuring chemicals laid down in criss-cross patterns by the big jets have been observed by thousands of eyewitnesses across North America over the past two years. When asked the purpose of these missions, the FAA official said he was told "weather modification" after a "higher civil authority" ordered him to divert incoming trans-Atlantic airliners around military formations flying over 37,000 feet on March 12, 20 and 21, 2001.

On Monday, March 12, reporter Brendt and her partner Lou Aubuchont counted 30 aircraft laying down a lingering gridwork of plumes between 12:05 and 12:55 pm. Aubuchont, who witnessed many military maneuvers during his stint as a courier in U.S. Navy Intelligence, said he had never seen anything like it.

"It looked like an invasion," he told this reporter. Aubuchont emphasized that unlike aerial battle exercises, the tankers were unescorted by combat helicopters or fighter jets. "It was just tankers."

After being contacted at a major metropolitan airport by Brendt, the ATC manager drove to her home on Monday, March 26 to see for himself how many commercial jets would be visible from her location. The FAA official counted just three jets "off in the distance" between 12:05 and 12:55 pm.

Of the nine jets on his radar scope during that same time period on March 12, the official told Brendt she should have been able to see only one from her location. Instead, she and Aubuchont counted 30. And the flights continued all day.

Speaking on condition of strict anonymity in a secure location, the chain-smoking government source noted that the chemicals sprayed by the air force tankers on March 12 showed up as a "haze" on Air Traffic Control radar scopes. The weather at the time of the incident was unlimited ceiling and visibility, in a cloudless blue sky.

web.archive.org...://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/Willthomas/bulletin/bulletin.htm

People need to wake up to the fact that they are spraying harmful chemical on us, our children, our food, and our earth.



WASHINGTON -- The military command responsible for the defense of North American airspace scrambled fighter jets in response to unverified reports of an airborne condensation trail, or contrail, moving from the vicinity of the Turks and Caicos Islands in the Caribbean to the United States, defense officials said Thursday.

www.highbeam.com...



DENVER (NBC NEWS)- They look like chalk marks across a giant blue blackboard, a criscross pattern of white vapor in the skies. Some call them chemtrails short for chemical trails.
Related Content

* Weather Wars

Scott Stevens says "I had viewers and readers writing me that something was not right," said Scott Stevens, a former TV meteorologist from Idaho.

He now lives in Fort Collins, and studying contrails has become his passion.

"I put cameras outside of my house in Idaho, and it was about four months after doing that, that I found one particular sortie of flights in the sky where the planes would leave a trail and what was curious was that other planes would come along and hit precisely over the debris or what was left over of the previous trail remnants," Stevens said.

www.nbcaugusta.com...



We will hold all those who do this activity, and those who protect them, responsible.



[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by cutbothways
 


Those last two links have nothing to do with spraying chemicals.

The first one was about the miltary scrambling jets to check out a contrail that was possibly made by a plane in US airspace and the second was about the effects of cirrus clouds on weather. Didnt see anything about spraying in those links.....so Im confused about what you are trying to say

[edit on 7/5/2008 by OzWeatherman]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 08:27 AM
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Did you even watch the movie?

Here's part 2



Part 3


Part 4


Conclusion



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 08:30 AM
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reply to post by cutbothways
 


Seen them a few times. Nothing in there that challenges my meteorological background.

Still wating for someone to take me up on the debate offer



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by OzWeatherman
reply to post by cutbothways
 


Seen them a few times. Nothing in there that challenges my meteorological background.

Still wating for someone to take me up on the debate offer


Since I began this thread, and I made the initial challenge, so far, I have one, you zero, in this debate, because no one has been able to accomplish what should be a fairly simple request.



No good. I'm asking for a clip from a movie that shows the natural sky "Ferris Buellers day off", "Term of endearment", "Glory" etc. with contrails visible.


If contrails are so common, one would surely be able to find an 80's or 90's movie with contrails visible when they show the natural sky.

Find a VHS in your collection, with a contrail, and video it, and post it up on youtube, and the debunkers will have some pretty good evidence that contrails are common.

Event recent movies (except for the last couple of years) would be a good start. But, if you could find one between 1980-1990, I would be impressed.

[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 08:56 AM
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reply to post by cutbothways
 


I was refering to a proper debate, judged by the moderators


You said earlier that contrails cant form unless the temperature is -50F, which is completely wrong. I asked for a soure for this and you have so far ignored it. I dont want youtbe videos as evidence, they arent reliable enough. I want a scientific explanation as to why contrails are not water vapour, I have explained why they are on numerous occasions and still have not once had any chemtrailers debunk that



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by OzWeatherman
reply to post by cutbothways
 


I was refering to a proper debate, judged by the moderators


You said earlier that contrails cant form unless the temperature is -50F, which is completely wrong. I asked for a soure for this and you have so far ignored it. I dont want youtbe videos as evidence, they arent reliable enough. I want a scientific explanation as to why contrails are not water vapour, I have explained why they are on numerous occasions and still have not once had any chemtrailers debunk that




Contrails are human-induced clouds that only form at very high altitudes (usually above 8 km - about 26,000 ft) where the air is extremely cold (less than -40°C). Because of this contrails form not when an airplane is taking off or landing, but while it is at cruise altitude.

asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...



The Appleman Chart (I hope your familiar with this) states at least -45c for always.



Answer: -45 ºC = -49 ºF

www.metric-conversions.org...

Next!


[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 09:29 AM
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Yeah I am familiar with an appleton chart (good job by the way).....we dont use fahrenheit here in Australia, so my conversion is obviously rough


But -45C is needed for persistent contrail development, not contrail development. The upper atmosphere is extremely cold and these types of temperatures are not uncommon plus they occur at a similar height to what planes crusie at. You just have to check the skew T diagrams that are readily available on the internet to confirm this.

So you sort of have just confrimed that contrails are able to persist ttoo by the way, was that not what you were trying to disprove?



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 09:38 AM
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So, in the Appleman chart, the lower the pressure, the less likely the chem..I mean, contrail should form.



If you fly at 30,000 feet (approx 9,153 metres) the air pressure
outside will be around 225 hPa (depending on the weather).

(the higher you go, the lower the pressure)
sci.tech-archive.net...

So, according to the Appleman chart, contrail formation is exceedingly rare, and actually, the lower you fly, the more common they should be. So planes coming in for a landing, would be the most susceptible for leaving a contrail.

SO, the argument that contrail form all the time, is against all the scientific evidence.



[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by cutbothways
So, in the Appleman chart, the lower the pressure, the less likely the chem..I mean, contrail should form.



If you fly at 30,000 feet (approx 9,153 metres) the air pressure
outside will be around 225 hPa (depending on the weather).

(the higher you go, the lower the pressure)
sci.tech-archive.net...

So, according to the Appleman chart, contrail formation is exceedingly rare, and actually, the lower you fly, the more common they should be. So planes coming in for a landing, would be the most susceptible for leaving a contrail.

SO, the argument that contrail form all the time, is against all the scientific evidence.



[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]


Thats incorrect. Pressure has little bearing on contrail development. Its all about the temperature combined with the atmopsheric moisture combined with the added water vapour from the exhaust (which encourages supersaturation).

All you need to do is check the skew T diagrams (from weather balloons, which I do launch for a living) that provide the upper air temperature, humidty, wind speed and direction.

Using this skew T diagram, you can see that -45C occurs at approx 400hPa which is equivalent to about 24,000ft in the Sydney area. Planes crusie at a slightly higher level, but due to the closeness of the depoint and temperature lines, it is apparent that the air is extremely humdid. So this sket T diagram shows that persistent contrail development is extremely likely, although wouldnt be visble from the ground due to the thick lower level cloud layers that are also apparent on the trace

www.australianweathernews.com...

And just to add, planes coming into land cant leave a contrail, the temperature in most places in the globe is no where near cold enough to sustain ice crystals at such a low altitude......you said you flew airplanes, but I am seriously doubting this after that comment

[edit on 7/5/2008 by OzWeatherman]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by OzWeatherman
 




So this sket T diagram shows that persistent contrail development is extremely likely, although wouldnt be visble from the ground due to the thick lower level cloud layers that are also apparent on the trace


So, correct me if I'm wrong, but persistent contrails on a CLEAR day, is nearly impossible, because supersaturation (high humidity) is required.



10000 ft 3048.0 m convert to 696.817 mb/hPa
15000 ft 4572.0 m convert to 571.820 mb/hPa
20000 ft 6096.0 m convert to 465.633 mb/hPa
25000 ft 7620.0 m convert to 376.009 mb/hPa
30000 ft 9144.0 m convert to 300.896 mb/hPa
35000 ft 10668 m convert to 238.423 mb/hPa

www.sensorsone.co.uk...

I would like to see your data, not some unreadable chart. Where are the labels on that ridiculous chart. Was it made by a 3rd grade science class?



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by OzWeatherman
 




So this sket T diagram shows that persistent contrail development is extremely likely, although wouldnt be visble from the ground due to the thick lower level cloud layers that are also apparent on the trace


So, correct me if I'm wrong, but persistent contrails on a CLEAR day, is nearly impossible, because supersaturation (high humidity) is required.



10000 ft 3048.0 m convert to 696.817 mb/hPa
15000 ft 4572.0 m convert to 571.820 mb/hPa
20000 ft 6096.0 m convert to 465.633 mb/hPa
25000 ft 7620.0 m convert to 376.009 mb/hPa
30000 ft 9144.0 m convert to 300.896 mb/hPa
35000 ft 10668 m convert to 238.423 mb/hPa

www.sensorsone.co.uk...

I would like to see your data, not some unreadable chart. Where are the labels on that ridiculous chart. Was it made by a 3rd grade science class?


Pressure heights are different around the world, they do not stay at the same height and surface low pressure and high pressure systems greatly influence the significant levels.

If you have a problem reading the chart then I assume you know nothing about basic meteorology as those diagrams are implemented by the world meteorological organisation (WMO) and are standard tools used in forecasting for aviation and public weather globally.

Persistent contrails can form on clear days if there is a trigger to produce cloud. And by trigger I mean airplanes pumping water vapour into the sky, where they cling to ice particles already present, increasing the size therefore becoming visble as cirrus (contrails)



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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WW2 Contrails

Contrails through History

There you go. Proof that such things happened before people started posting on the internet.

Hope that clears it up.


[edit on 7/0508/08 by neformore]

[edit on 7/0508/08 by neformore]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by kaspermartyrphantom
All that really matters is that they are spraying silver iodide into our air. It doesn't matter HOW they are doing it. Who give a rats if it's a contrail or a chemtrail bla bla bla. Fact is, THEY ARE SPRAYING SILVER IODIDE INTO OUR AIR.


Did you read this thread at all?

Cloud seeding isn't the same as "chemtrails"




[edit on 7/0508/08 by neformore]


Yes, I did read the WHOLE thread. Same debate, different thread. Like always. Same people. Same re-hashed info. Seems we always debate on chemtrails and contrails and their differences. That is not the issue with me, nor does it matter when you take into account that harmful elements are being thrust into our atmosphere. The Chemtrail/Contrail debate is there to detract attention from the real issue. The real issue is what we are being subjected to. Ozweatherman is here to debunk chemtrails like always. Has he stopped to think that maybe his education was designed to lead him astray? I mean, he went to school right? How do we know he wasnt taught disinformation and is spreading it to us all? How do we know his credentials or who's agenda he is following? How does he know if what he learned and is re-hashing to us is the absolute 100% truth?

Plain and simple:

Chemtrails/Contrails, myth or not, bla bla IT DOESNT MATTER! WE ARE BEING POISONED!

neformore: mod or not, dont come in here asking whether I read the thread or not. I'm not some teletubby pekachu believing nutjob. I'm here to discredit those people. I'm here to inform, and i'm here to learn. Asking me a question like "did you even read the thread?" is uncalled for. If I didnt read the thread, why would I bother to post here? No disrespect (assuming you deserve no disrespect) but I feel disrespected by that post.



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by kaspermartyrphantom
 


If it is such a bother to you that you think my credentials are bogus and you dont care about chemtrails/ contrails stuff, then why bother posting?

You have not contributed to either side of the argument at all. Just complained about everyone else saying stuff

So unless your going to contribute, why dont you just climb back into the corner and put on your gas mask



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by kaspermartyrphantom
Ozweatherman is here to debunk chemtrails like always. Has he stopped to think that maybe his education was designed to lead him astray? I mean, he went to school right? How do we know he wasnt taught disinformation and is spreading it to us all? How do we know his credentials or who's agenda he is following? How does he know if what he learned and is re-hashing to us is the absolute 100% truth?


Does the same not apply to you? He's workign off accepted science - what are you working off?



neformore: mod or not, dont come in here asking whether I read the thread or not. I'm not some teletubby pekachu believing nutjob. I'm here to discredit those people.


If your sole purpose is to discredit something, then you aren't here to learn, which is why I find



I'm here to inform, and i'm here to learn.


Just everso slightly confusing.



Asking me a question like "did you even read the thread?" is uncalled for. If I didnt read the thread, why would I bother to post here? No disrespect (assuming you deserve no disrespect) but I feel disrespected by that post.


Well I'm sorry you feel that way - its just that the thread is about chemtrails, not about cloud seeding. It had already been established in the thread earlier that there are differences between the two, and that cloud seeding for weather modification was a practice recognised by both sides of the debate as something that happens in regular practice.

The thread is about someone claiming that they have proof that persistent contrails don't occur, that they are man made and that regular spraying occurs as a counter argument to a post that Ozweatherman made. Thats why I asked.

Or are you claiming that chemtrails are all Silver Iodide? If so, with the amound of silver sprayed into the air, why are we not seeing persistent and sustained die backs of animals, insect species, plant species, crop failures and massive - way beyond what is actually experienced - health problems in the general populous?



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by OzWeatherman
 


Again, you are wrong.



Persistent contrails can form on clear days if there is a trigger to produce cloud. And by trigger I mean airplanes pumping water vapour into the sky, where they cling to ice particles already present, increasing the size therefore becoming visble as cirrus (contrails)



Contrails form by water vapor clinging to the dust in the exhaust.



Contrails are clouds formed when water vapor condenses and freezes around small particles (aerosols) that exist in aircraft exhaust. Some of that water vapor comes from the air around the plane; and, some is added by the exhaust of the aircraft.
The exhaust of an aircraft contains both gas (vapor) and solid particles. Both of these are important in the formation of contrails. Some elements of the exhaust gasses are not involved in contrail formation but do constitute air pollution. Emissions include carbon dioxide, water vapor, nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons such as methane, sulfates (SOx), and soot and metal particles.

asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...




Persistent (non-spreading) contrails look like long white lines that remain visible after the airplane has disappeared. This shows that the air where the airplane is flying is quite humid, and there is a large amount of water vapor available to form a contrail. Persistent contrails can be further divided into two classes: those that spread and those that don't. Persistent contrails look like long, narrow white pencil-lines across the sky.


So, the air need to be at least -40c or less, 250mb or more, and "quite humid" according to NASA, the Appleman Chart, and you.

Now, read this.



At usual airline cruise altitudes of 9,144 to 11,877 m (30,000-39,000 ft),
the ambient air has little humidity.

Source

Also;



Note: Although not restricted, the cargo compartments on our Airbus A319, A320, and A321 aircraft are not heated and temperatures can be as low as two degrees Celsius, so it is not recommended to transport animals on these aircraft during the winter season.


www.aircanada.com...

As low as 2C in the winter? I thought -40C happened all the time. How do you explain this?

[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]



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