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Debunking the Chemtrail Debunker.

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posted on May, 5 2008 @ 07:25 AM
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Take a look at these pics.



Now, take a look at this thread I authored several months ago.
Do you like breathing and drinking Silver Iodide?, page 1

It's causing the valley I live in to look like this


From this valley, the west coast gets it's water.

The valley sits at 7000 ft, and used to be one of the most
pristine in the country, if not world.

This year, we had record snow. Now, if you check out the link
you'll see several of the sources I used, have been removed.

Why?



June 2, 2006 - The rainy season has come to northern China, and it’s a brave new world out there. Actually the natural rainy season doesn’t start until July. But the season of man-made rain is upon us, and Chinese rainmakers have been busy. Over the past month they've mobilized cloud-seeding aircraft, artillery and rockets to enhance rainfall.
...
And tampering with Mother Nature has been known to backfire. Cloud-seeding shells and rockets have sometimes gone astray, damaging homes and injuring inhabitants. City dwellers have raised concerns about environmental pollution, though meteorologists insist the silver iodide is used in such tiny quantities that it brings no negative health consequences. And the rainmaking scramble became so intense in 2004 that five Henan province villages reportedly squabbled over “cloud theft” after they all seeded the clouds simultaneously but only one district received the lion’s share of rain.

www.chemtrails911.com...



though meteorologists insist the silver iodide is used in such tiny quantities that it brings no negative health consequences.

A blatant lie! Each raindrop attaches to at least one particle. Now, how many raindrops are in a storm? When the water disipates, what's left is salt, and silver particle shards in the form of dust.
Now, as the winter season dies down here in the high country, we still have snow on the ground, we are starting to see the sticky dust on the roofs of our vehicles.

Sometimes, the haze is so bad, it hurts your eyes. Sometimes, we can all feel a noticable energy drain. When I put water in the fishtank, I can see tiny flashes of silver particles. We've been itchy, and get frequent rashes.

I think the clothing and bed sheets "filter" and trap the silver particles, and they get into our skin. I think we are drinking it, and eating it.

I think, it's happening all over the world. Why?

Because water is like gold. Imagine how much a state government like Nevada or California would pay someone if they could get the rain to dump in the Rockies, before heading to the plains where our food grows.

Now, the difficult part of cloud seeding, is there has to be clouds, to have enough moisture to collect on the "silver salt"

So on a clear day, it is almost impossible because there is no supersaturation, and that is why it is unusual for a plane to leave a contrail. Statistics say, 10 in 50,000 leave a contrail! It's facts all posted in the thread I linked to.

But they have figured out a way around that. Liquid Carbon Dioxide. Water molecules are attracted to carbon. That is why you get smoke on a cold morning from your tailpipe. It's the bluish stuff. Like the layer I pointed out
in the valley picture.

It supercools the surrounding atmosphere. That is why you'll see one or two jets leaving long trails (silver iodide) and then other jets with plumes that dissipate (liquid carbon dioxide)

We watch it every day. First thing, in the morning, clear blue sky, but almost immediately, they start crossing the sky, and what we end up with, is hazy air and gray, overcast skies.

Now, a scientist from a local storm lab, Storm Peak Lab, came out and said we had alarming amounts of mercury in our air! Saw it on CNN, and it was reported on statewide TV, but never saw a local article. I sounded the alarm locally, but no-one seems to care. I'm worried about people. Place seems lethargic, and down.

cbs4denver.com...

They blame it on China. Everything is China's fault these days.

But I know the truth. It's about money being made off of water.



[edit on 5-5-2008 by cutbothways]

[edit on 5-5-2008 by cutbothways]




posted on May, 5 2008 @ 07:44 AM
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Now, here's the challenge for the debunker.

Go back and find me a movie made between 1980 and 1990, there are tons of them available on youtube, and show me a clip where they have a jet contrail in it when they show the sky.

Just one.



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 07:53 AM
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How about Strategic Air Command in 1955.

GREAT pic hear....

www.imdb.com...

I'm not either for or against this. Consider me neutral.



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by hinky
 



No good. I'm asking for a clip from a movie that shows the natural sky "Ferris Buellers day off", "Term of endearment", "Glory" etc. with contrails visible.

What you showed was a piston driven smoker, that looked like it was running a bit rich, because of decreased oxygen intake. Not to mention is was an artist rendering.

Imagine if our modern fighters left a trail like that. It would get them shot down pretty quick.

The planes that were flying between 1980 and 1990 are the same planes flying today, as pointed out by the recent "emergency" inspections and the workhorse of the fleet. (To install more spraying equip, IMO)



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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While I'm waiting for the debunkers, I'll post some more info for those sitting on the fence.



The most common chemicals used for cloud seeding include silver iodide and dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide). The expansion of liquid propane into a gas has also been used and can produce ice crystals at warmer temperatures than silver iodide. The use of hygroscopic materials, such as salt, is increasing in popularity because of some promising research results.

Seeding of clouds requires that they contain supercooled liquid water—that is, liquid water colder than zero degrees Celsius. Introduction of a substance such as silver iodide, which has a crystalline structure similar to that of ice, will induce freezing (heterogeneous nucleation). Dry ice or propane expansion cools the air to such an extent that ice crystals can nucleate spontaneously from the vapor phase.

en.wikipedia.org...

Propane is used only for ground units. Airborne units use tanks of pressurized liquid CO2, as I pointed out in my earlier thread.



Part of the problem is that it is difficult to discern how much precipitation would have occurred had the cloud not been "seeded." In other words, it is hard to discern additional precipitation from seeding from the natural precipitation variability, which is frequently much greater in magnitude. Nevertheless, there is more credible scientific evidence for the effectiveness of winter cloud seeding over mountains (to produce snow) than there is for seeding warm-season cumuli form (convective) clouds


And what about the places that DON'T get the water, because it was dumped earlier than natures design.

And people wonder why wheat and corn prices are so high?

And what about the millions of flight hours, and jet fuel used.

Not only are they polluting, but they are spraying pollutants, and their running fuel prices up due to higher fuel demand.

Also, why did Nasa hide the Aviation Incident reports?

Because they don't want us to know how many flights are actually
taking place, because then we would realize that many of the commercial
passenger routes have no passengers except tanks and computers.



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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So, to understand the size of the operation, one can take a look at the Chinese statistics being released.



Despite some international skepticism, the Chinese authorities remain convinced of the merits of attempting to alter weather. China's state news agency Xinhua recently reported that between 1999 and 2006, 250 billion tonnes of rain was artificially created, enough to fill the Yellow River several times over. Moreover, China's 11th Five Year Plan, which kicked off last year, calls for the creation of about 50 billion cubic meters of artificial rain annually.

www.atimes.com...

Thats metric tonnes folks!

Can you imagine all the silver iodide that needs to be sprayed in the atmosphere to produce 50 billion cubic meters of rain annually?

How many drops of water are in 1 cubic meter. Now each water drop is attached to a particle of silver iodide.

Trillions!

The sinister thing is the effect on the unsuspecting population.

Health problems range from respiratory to mental and physical
issues such as fatigue, alzheimers, flu like symptoms, morgellons types
of diseases which combine mental and physical characteristics, restless
leg syndrome, very common in the elderly, because of circulation issues from metal poisoning.

Combine this with flouride in the water, and we get population control under the guise of weather modification and gum diseases, caused by the weather modification and gum disease control.

By the way, I believe all the anti-China stuff has been from a large part the Chinese threatening to reveal the actual methods and amount used to Modify Weather.

And if you think its just China, think again.




In 2025, uninhabited aerospace vehicles (UAV) are routinely used for weather-modification operations. By cross-referencing desired attack times with wind and thunderstorm forecasts and the SPOT satellite’s projected orbit, the WFSE generates mission profiles for each UAV. The WFSE guides each UAV using near-real-time information from a networked sensor array.
Prior to the attack, which is coordinated with forecasted weather conditions, the UAVs begin cloud generation and seeding operations. UAVs disperse a cirrus shield to deny enemy visual and infrared (IR) surveillance.
Simultaneously, microwave heaters create localized scintillation to disrupt active sensing via synthetic aperture radar (SAR) systems such as the commercially available Canadian search and rescue satellite-aided tracking (SARSAT) that will be widely available in 2025. Other cloud seeding operations cause a developing thunderstorm to intensify over the target, severely limiting the enemy’s capability to defend. The WFSE monitors the entire operation in real-time and notes the successful completion of another very important but routine weather-modification mission.

By 2025, the world, or parts of it, are able to shape local weather patterns by influencing the factors that affect climate, precipitation, storms and their effects, fog, and near space. These highly accurate and reasonably precise civil applications of weather-modification technology have obvious military implications. This is particularly true for aerospace
forces, for while weather may affect all mediums of operation, it operates in ours.

The term weather-modification may have negative connotations for many people, civilians and military members alike. It is thus important to define the scope to be considered in this paper so that potential critics or proponents of further research have a common basis for discussion. In the broadest sense, weather-modification can be divided into two major categories: suppression and intensification of weather patterns.

Owning the Weather in 2025 AF pdf





[edit on 5-5-2008 by cutbothways]



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 09:43 AM
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Cool thread.

I would say not to worry so much about debunking debunkers, etc.
Arguing is circular and detracts from the key point of any message - which is primarily to help people to learn to look and think for themselves.


So I would encourage you to continue to post your facts and opinions, but try not to get tangled in a tit for tat with someone who could care-less about whats coming out of the back of a plane and what its doing to the skies. - those kind of post will die on their own if you let it.


Again, focus on your message, and not so much on the argument - less those that potentially could benefit from a thread like this, get weighed down with all the silly arguments and take nothing away from the thread at all...except the notion to continue thinking within the already accepted/established box, whether it be 'right' or 'wrong'.


Peace

dAlen

p.s. -
I would go a step further and say that perhaps you should research all the chemtrail threads here at ATS and see if you cant do some kind of comprehensive research paper on it and share it with us here at ATS.

- consider all the fact/opinions weighed, and bring it together.
- use pics, diagrams etc
- get some others here at ATS to join in. (I suppose there is a research forum for this type of thing.)
- and then deliver the goods here so we can all enjoy.
- concise, covering all bases, as it were...mainly to the point.
- be clear about what is known and what is theory, etc.
- point out the contradictions in the arguments the so called 'pros' have - those pros who would continue to have everyone believe whatever it is mass media delivers to them.

- this would include using info from professionals who are indeed open minded, to show that indeed all pros are not sided with 'mainstream' media. - I will say that even mainstream media is becoming not so mainstream anymore...which is good.


Again, with as much as this topic comes up here, it seems time to get all this information in one place. Now, Im one waiting for the movie or comic book edition to come out explaining things, so the more to the point you are, the more people will likely be to read it.


[edit on 5-5-2008 by dAlen]



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by dAlen
 


Thanks. I will try. Been trying for a couple of years. At first, people laughed at me. But I told them how it's possible the Pine Tree epidemic (nearly half of the Colorado Pines are dead) is not caused by beetles, as proposed, but by atmospheric poisoning, and root damage from excessive salt deposits. The beetles are simply natures reaction to dead and dying trees.

Usually, beetles can keep up with the dead and dying trees, keeping forest fires down to a minimum. But, we are looking at the potential for catastrophic forest fires this summer, even though we had a record winter.

My second point against the beetle being the culprit, is the Aspens are dying in droves too, and the beetles don't like the Aspen, because they are too soft.

Now the Aspen grow from one connected root system, so it is either in the air, or the soil, or both.

Now, we are also facing worldwide declining fish, bird, and bee populations, all signs that something is going on in our atmosphere.

One doctor or scientist testing human hairs for metal poisoning would give us an answer. One test of root samples, one honest release of metal particle in water samples would give us an answer. The answer, I know without a doubt, would show we are being poisoned.

But do you think I can get one chemtrail debunking scientist to take on the challenge?

No, they've had their collective fingers so deep in the pockets of the taxpayers, that they know, one shouldn't exercise vigorously out of doors, hence you get perfectly healthy joggers dropping dead from heart attacks, because they run though a heavily poison bit of airspace.

And what is it doing to our food?? Think about lettuce, and how it collects dust from the atmosphere. Think about cows, chickens, etc, that breath, eat and drink metals. It's all a massive collection of events, that lead to a very sick population.

Not sick enough to kill them rapidly, but slowly, so they can collect all their savings and assets through medical fascilities, insurance, and medicine...



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by cutbothways
 


Take what you have and try to break it up into topics and then subtopics.
For each topic you may have a trail of links to valid science/nature sites to back up what you say.

There is so much info in the mainstream media that is quite valid, (mixed with a biased opinion, of course) however our minds are pre-conditioned to think one way that we typically dont see what is in front of us and go for the biased opinion as fact - ignoring the actual facts laid out in an article.


Anyway, it would be interesting to see such a project undertaken - and indeed it would seem to be that this is the type of content that we would all prefer to see here at ATS.
(vs. the same things getting recycled and feeling like we are getting nowhere.)


Peace

dAlen



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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Ok, how about iodism.

The compound used is silver iodide. They use the silver nanoparticles as a host for the water to attach to. The salt, attracts the water to the silver.

When the water drops to earth, the water dissipates, and what is left is salt, and silver. Now the silver gets moved around through the wind and rain, and absorbed, but the salt, like the silver, never does dissipate. Think about the salt flats.

So, chronic (over periods of years) ingestation of iodine (salts) or it's compounds, according to medical officials, causes iodism.



Chronic poisoning by iodine or iodides, manifested by coryza, ptyalism, emaciation, weakness and skin eruptions.

Iodism



Coryza is a word describing the symptoms of a head cold.[1] It describes the inflammation of the mucus membranes lining the nasal cavity which usually gives rise to the symptoms of nasal congestion and loss of smell, among other symptoms.

en.wikipedia.org...



Incidence of ptyalism

Excessive saliva tends to occur when you are suffering from nausea or heartburn, and most women find that the symptoms are reduced by the end of the first trimester.

www.babypartner.com...

Can anyone say Prilosec!!



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 11:10 AM
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By the way, all the pictures I have posted I have personally taken.






posted on May, 5 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by cutbothways
 

This is a great topic. Thanks for sharing the truth, as usual. I appreciate your work & help.



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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Maybe they are spraying something into the air, but could it not possibly be something to help repair the ozone layer? rather than for something nefarious?

[edit on 5-5-2008 by QBSneak000]



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by ChadAndrewATS
 


Thanks.

Repairing Ozone. Maybe they messed it up in the first place.

The pdf I poster earlier, "Owning the Weather in 2025"
is here on ATS too.



Modification of the near-space environment is crucial to battlespace dominance. General Charles Horner, former commander in chief, United States space command, described his worst nightmare as "seeing an entire Marine battalion wiped out on some foreign landing zone because he was unable to deny the enemy intelligence and imagery generated from space."42 Active modification could provide a "technological fix" to jam the enemy's active and passive surveillance and reconnaissance systems. In short, an operational capability to modify the near-space environment would ensure space superiority in 2025; this capability would allow us to shape and control the battlespace via enhanced communication, sensing, navigation, and precision engagement systems.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's all about powerful men who think they are gods, and anyone who is opposing them is going down, no matter who they hurt.

What happened to accountability in the military?? What happened to honor at the highest levels?

It's all about lining their pockets. Think silver iodide is cheap? Ever wonder why silver has gone up so significantly?

Ever wonder why they stopped using silver in quarters?

Hear is a thought for you.

Say you were in 1963, and you got a quarter. Now, at that time, a quarter would buy you a gallon of gas. Fast forward today, and you have that same 1963 quarter. The value of amount of silver in that quarter is around $3.50.

About what it costs to buy a gallon of gas. But try using that quarter to buy gas. Unless they are a coin collector, you'll be laughed at.

Now how is that for a population that doesn't understand how the rug is being pulled right out from under their feet, and they think things are just cheesy, right up to the point where they hit their collective hard heads on the harder floor.



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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So, in this post I want to show how the Chinese are coming right out and saying they are using liquid CO2 and silver iodide (imagine their carbon tax)




A comparison study on dynamic and microphysical effects of cloud seeding by silver iodide (AgI) and liquid carbon dioxide (liquid CO2) was made using a 3D cloud model with seeding processes. The model was initialized based on the rawinsonde sounding taken from Pinliang station located in the western China on 20 April 2001. The sounding air reflects moist and stable characteristics at middle and low layers. The model results show that the seeding by liquid CO2 and AgI at − 15 to − 20 °C levels of cloud has almost the same dynamic effect on the simulated clouds.

Source

If you click on the above link, you will see related articles about Greenhouse Gas control techniques, and an ad for metabolic disease.

Now, there is a thread on ATS right now
www.abovetopsecret.com...
about some disease that is causing foot and mouth disease in the Anhui Province near Beijing, the same place where the Olympics might take place, the same place where China has been bragging they can control the weather.

The same place, that had a SARS outbreak, about the same time the above excerpt was printed.
www.dh.gov.hk...



[edit on 5-5-2008 by cutbothways]



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by hinky
 



No good. I'm asking for a clip from a movie that shows the natural sky "Ferris Buellers day off", "Term of endearment", "Glory" etc. with contrails visible.

What you showed was a piston driven smoker, that looked like it was running a bit rich, because of decreased oxygen intake. Not to mention is was an artist rendering.

Imagine if our modern fighters left a trail like that. It would get them shot down pretty quick.



I enjoyed reading all the responses after my post. You have a couple of problems but don't realize it.

First and foremost, you have to prove the existence of something not proven or accepted by any reputable scientist. This being stated does not make it impossible. All your evidence shows is that jet engines provide condensation in an atmosphere that allows clouds to be formed. The pic of the cirro-stratus clouds co-mingled with contrails is a good example. This is nothing more than a natural act, regardless of how passionate you are in your counter arguments. You need real physical proof, not conjecture.

Now onto your response to my post. NO, you need to watch this movie and YOU will see all the contrails you want. Remember, the burden is on YOU to prove something. I do not need to debunk anything. But then, I have no dog in this fight.

You do know the age of the airplane has no bearing on the age of the engine? It's like putting an engine in a car only its bigger and it flies.

Lets talk about beetles and trees. After years of drought and an invasive species that has no natural predators, it is easy to see that the beetles will over run vast stretches of forest. To the layman, this is something that can't happen. To the educated scientist, it happens all the time. You only notice this because of where you live and it affects you. Broaden your vision, then get a real education, then we can talk.

There is no reason to respond to my post. I will not change your mind. I already know what "the truth" is in this particular matter, so you will not change mine. Everyone here, have a great time patting each other and spreadin' the news....



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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It’s not easy to surprise Logan, at least when it comes to the mountain pine beetle. He’s a research entomologist for the Forest Service’s Rocky Mountain Research Station in Logan, Utah, which has been studying mountain pine beetles and other bark beetles for more than three decades.
...
The cold temperatures made it impossible for them to complete their life cycle in one year, forcing them to confront a second winter at a vulnerable point in their development. The adult beetles also couldn’t synchronize their emergence and flight from their birthplaces. With so few beetles attacking new trees at any one time, healthy trees could defend themselves by drowning the tiny beetles in resin. Under these conditions, beetles could only kill diseased and otherwise weakened trees.
...
The United Nations-sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), widely considered the world authority on climate change science, predicted in 1990 that global mean temperatures would rise 2.5 degrees Celsius (4.5 degrees Fahrenheit) by 2030, assuming humans took no major action to reduce carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere. Curious about the effect of this change on mountain pine beetle outbreaks, the researchers gradually stepped up temperatures in their model. When temperatures hit two degrees Celsius higher than the average conditions at one of their whitebark pine study sites, prospects for the beetles improved dramatically. Beetles raced through a one-year life cycle at higher elevations. They also synchronized their emergence, allowing them to join forces and overwhelm tree defenses. High-mountain mass attack — and mass tree death — suddenly became possible.

www.hcn.org...



assuming humans took no major action to reduce carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere


They're blaming it on the "useless eaters", when it's them pumping CO2 into the atmosphere all along.


[edit on 5-5-2008 by cutbothways]



posted on May, 6 2008 @ 06:27 AM
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Where are the debunkers?

Last night, there was a report on the 10 oclock news about Chemtrails!!

First time I've ever seen it on my TV!

The guy from NOAA even admitted they were spraying silver iodide, trying
to downplay it.

There was a high level ex ag lady, who really was questioning, and called it very scary. She was concerned for crop health and consequently human health.



posted on May, 6 2008 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by cutbothways
 


I'll make a token appearance to ask how you know these contrails are all silver iodide as opposed to persisting contrails.

And add these photos:

Peterson First Guide to Clouds and Weather published in 1991 (pics have to be before that date)
www.amazon.com...





1984
www.flickr.com...@N00/409570697/

1981
A Field Guide to the Atmosphere
contrailscience.com...
contrailscience.com...

1972
Clouds of the World by Richard Sorner
contrailscience.com...

1967
A Colour Guide to Clouds by Scorer and Wexler
contrailscience.com...

WWII
contrailscience.com...
www.worldwar2pilots.com...
static.howstuffworks.com...
www.aerospaceweb.org...
mighty8thaf.preller.us...
www.390th.org...
www.century-of-flight.net...
www.dropbears.com...



posted on May, 6 2008 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by _Del_
 


Nice pics, with no link to actual source. By the way, I looked through all the weather books on amazon, couldn't find one with contrails on the front page.

Where did you get your pics?

The last pic. I remember when that contrail first started showing up.

People speculated it was an Aurora aircraft. Even the local new ran a story
about it, saying the local base didn't know anything about it.


If contrails are so common, and naturally form into snow clouds,

why do they need to do cloud seeding at all?

Give me a break, think this is my first day at school?




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