The Seduction of Eve..

reply to post by dirtusbagious

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the abrahamic faiths. I have minor scriptural or bible scholar skills.

dirtusbagious you ask in your O.P. and I quote "Is the truth that Satan actually had a sexual encounter with Eve?". And I answer you as follows. I can provide no scripture that says specifically that Eve and Adam had "copulative and penetrative sexual relations" with Satan in any way shape or form. I have a quick look but nothings registering in the KJV but I could be searching wrong or not looking in right places ect and would love to be proved as lacking in investigative skills for this point so if you or anybody does have any scriptures that do point to its existance I too would much appreciate it coming to light.

Personal Disclosure: On a side-note inspired by your O.P. was you mention and again I quote "How a mere piece of fruit could cause so much havok, destruction, chaos and even death? It really makes little sense. And would seem to only cause further the perception of creator "God" to become less appealing as someone to draw near to. I mean, "all of this hostility/hell?", "for one bite, of one measly apple?", geesh...". This reminds me of the Greek Goddess Eris (Goddess of Discord) who wasn't invited to a godly wedding party so she made a golden apple and wrote Kalisti which in greek means the prettiest and she rolled it secretly into the party and then left to let her work be done . Immediately upon its discovery many of the female goddesses started fighting over who was the prettiest but Zeus intervened befor all hell broke loose and made the Hero Paris choose which goddess. he chose Aphrodite and So started the trogan war when she repayed him with Helen and the GODs chose sides! and all for a golden apple and because of snubbing someone who they should of known not to mess with! It seems fruit in both this and the Genesis story account is either a symbol or actual somatic component in the Fall that follows! would you or anybody else agree with this. Do you or anybody else know of any other fruit , GOD/s and disaster stories that go together like these 1st 2 examples? I hope this wasn't off topic.

reply to post by misswanderer31

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor scriptural or bible scholar skills.

misswanderer31, Could you provide more scripture or other references to back up your claims? Especially that we were all in heaven before we were on earth!

Personal Disclosure: I would love to remember being in heaven with GOD that would have been real COOL!!! (I wonder why 1/3rd of the angels went with Satan?)

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor scriptural or bible scholar skills.

Reasons against Eve's seduction as far as I'm concerned.

I'm pretty sure a Nephilim would have been the surefire result of their sexual union and this is not recorded although Cain maybe a candidate. Or is Satan sexually impotent? Where is this scripturally noted? To be plain this is all starting to sound a little fruity just not forbidden to me.

Personal Disclosure: I now think and feel that the knowledge gained by eating of forbidden fruit tree of knowledge of good and bad was that "Yes you have done wrong, you have eaten my special fruit stash that I was directly tempting you with (something sounds immoral by this) and now I'm going to punish you when you don't understand what punishment is because you've never experienced it before (more immoral action being taken here by YHVH/GOD it appears)!". Please correct me if my assumptions on YHVHs/GODs morality in this area are wrong and why they are wrong.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
(I wonder why 1/3rd of the angels went with Satan?)

The story goes like this: When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of wisdom God ordered the Arch Angel Raziel to write a book containing all wisdom between heaven and earth, bind it up and give it to Adam. Raziel was the keeper of wisdom in Heaven and the gate keeper of the highest heaven. When Adam had received this book, often referred to as the Spark of Heaven or the Book of Raziel, Satan was furious, for not even he or the other angels had been trusted with such knowledge. Satan summoned 1/3rd of heavens angels and started a war against the other 2/3rds, ending in a great fall of angels uppon the earth. The Spark of Heaven was the light Adam and Eve were exposed to, and the fall of Satan and his angels, is when God throws the serpent to the ground. After Satan had been thrown to the earth he stole the Book from Adam and together with his angels he conspired to place it at the most desolate place on earth, at the deepest pit of the ocean. Later at the time of Enoch God realised that Man no longer had the Book, he investigated and sent Leviathan the great sea serpent out to retrieve it and give it back to the sons of Adam. Leviathan retrieved the book and gave it to Enoch, great grandfather of Noah, or the seventh son of Adam. According to tradition Enoch received the hebrew language together with the book. Anyway, this was what happened when Satan and 1/3rd of heaven fell.

reply to post by OmegaLogos

dirtusbagious you ask in your O.P. and I quote "Is the truth that Satan actually had a sexual encounter with Eve?". And I answer you as follows. I can provide no scripture that says specifically that Eve and Adam had "copulative and penetrative sexual relations" with Satan in any way shape or form. I have a quick look but nothings registering in the KJV but I could be searching wrong or not looking in right places ect and would love to be proved as lacking in investigative skills

OmegaLogos, i simply ask, "have you listened to the mp3?". There-in you "will" find your answer. I gaurantee it is there.

Ya see, I'm not adding anything at all to what is written in the Bible. Nor am i attempting to add anything farout/mystical. It really "is" there.

I could go back and listen, and pull out examples, and if I really need to i eventually will.

But for this instance I will try to clarify with one example.
a). "Tree"...a tree is a tree, right?,,no, it is not. If you look it up, you will find, "without playing or stretching words", that it is also used as a reference to a person.
It simply boils down to finding the deeper, yet still "valid", definition of the words, and it falls right into place.

No magic, no hocus-pocus, no cramming a square peg into a round hole.
Just a deeper study/understanding into the words that are already there.

I would really hope you will listen to the recording provided. The "seduction" episode begins approx. 1/3 into the recording, then only lasts about 10-15 minutes.

It isn't going to brainwash anyone. It isn't freaky. It is, (imo), nothing less than a clear understanding, of what "really" took place on that faithfull day long ago, that plauges humanity to this very day.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Hi OmegaLogos...

Sure here are the references... some are from the bible, some are from the dead sea scrolls that have since been translated into english and one from Doctrine & Covenants... so here goes... P.S. I use the KJV version of the Bible.

(Num. 27: 16) "God of the spirits of all flesh."

- This scripture tells us that we are the spirit children of God. Literally.

D&C 93: 29 "Man was also in the beginning with God."

- We lived in Heaven with God before our earth life.
Personal Observation: I mean if you had children, physical or spirit wouldn't they be living with you, as their parents and not anywhere else?

Moses 3: 5 "in heaven created I them, and there was not yet flesh upon the earth."

- God tells us he created us in heaven before we came to earth, every living thing has a spirit, animals, etc.

Rev. 12: 7 "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon."

- This talks about the war in heaven, and how Lucifer and the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out because they didn't keep their first estate. Meaning, they refused to follow God's plan.

Your first estate is in essence when you are in your spirit estate, you kept your first estate because you agreed with God's plan. The reason why I disagree with Lucifer having a body is because he didn't keep his first estate. Only those that agreed with the plan came to earth and received a body. The 1/3 that left heaven with Lucifer were our spirit brothers and sisters, so to speak. We all have the same spirit father, God. Your second estate is what we would call, you being in your physical mortal body.

Gen. 3: 15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

- When Lucifer and the 1/3 got kicked out they were still in their spirit form. The reason why God said the above was so that they would not be able to inhabit any physical/mortal bodies created by us on the earth. So they will never be able to have a mortal body. And believe it or not we have so much more power over Satan because of this.

Isa. 14: 12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

- Lucifers position in heaven before he fell was very high up. He was pretty much second in line, Jesus being the first. That is why we read in Moses Chapter 4:

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Another reference is: Isa. 6: 8

Actually if you search the book of moses chapter 4, its a really good read and goes into the story of Adam and Eve more clearly.

If you need any further references of clarification let me know...

edited to add in P.S.: I know I wish I remembered living in heaven too, but that was one of the things we had to give up when we came here, all our memories of heaven.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by misswanderer31]

Originally posted by misswanderer31
reply to post by OmegaLogos

 

Hi OmegaLogos...

Sure here are the references... some are from the bible, some are from the dead sea scrolls that have since been translated into english and one from Doctrine & Covenants... so here goes... P.S. I use the KJV version of the Bible.

(Num. 27: 16) "God of the spirits of all flesh."

- This scripture tells us that we are the spirit children of God. Literally.

That scripture clearly states "All flesh" this would then include the flesh of animals as well as man. In this sense the the word spirit clearly refers to the life force of all living things. You can see that this is true by considering Gen 6:17

17 “And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire.

It literally means , “in which the active force (spirit) of life [is].” The actual Hebrew phrase is , ’asher-boh′ ru′ach chai·yim′.
Here ru′ach means “active force; spirit. And interestingly enough it applies to animals.

So to conclude that Numbers 27:16 support the notion that Man has some sort of spiritual existance as "Spirit sons of God" before their life on earth is illogical and incorrect.

Originally posted by dirtusbagious
reply to post by chise61

[anyway, if you chose not to listen to it, well, it "is" the crux of the question I raise..therefore, the explaination it contains, is what I am interested of what your insight or thoughts my be.]

I'm sorry i wasn't aware that that was the question that you were asking. I went back and looked at the op and couldn't find anyplace that you mentioned that you wanted opinions on the mp3. You question seemed to be that you couldn't understand why they were so severely punished for eating a measley piece of fruit. Which is what i was giving my opinion on. I listened to the mp3,although i did cheat fastfowarded a little bit. Anything's possible but i wasn't there so i don't know. The explanation on the mp3 doesn't make me change my beliefs, but i'm not saying that it's impossible, again i wasn't there. IMO she seems to take the definition of the hebrew words that will sway listeners to her beliefs. She lists several different meanings for several words, but always seems to use the definitions that support her views. She does say one thing that isn't true and i believe that she uses this untruth to further sway people. All it takes is one known untruth to negate her whole theory. She states that fraternal twins are concieved at different times, that is untrue. Fraternal twins are simply a case where the woman has released more than one egg, and two eggs are fertilized by two different sperm, usually from the same man. I may be wrong.but i believe that it would be a very rare case if a woman were carrying twins from two different men.

reply to post by chise61

All it takes is one known untruth to negate her whole theory.

Geesh, i find it sooo refreshing that someone actually listened. And even if you did "skip ahead" a bit?, lol, still, "kewl"..

"One known untruth", as i gather, would only apply to a Book that claims 100% accuracy in the fortelling of future events. But, this is just basically trying to sort out the truth between the fellow intriuged. "Thee" quest for understanding, so on,
Or?, in other words, studying (?).

And the points you brought up that i found most interesting, the fraternal twins? the Hebrew translation?, (and the prefernce of definition), are noteworthy. And precisely the angle i am, with this.
I'm not "sold" this mp3 is note for note thee precise account. Or trying to sell. But dog-gone it is still something to ponder. in a big wayyy...
Rather than, "does the antichrist have big ears?" or, "just how deep was the flood?", (though good questions), i feel the question raised "was Eve seduced" to be a very unfamiliar concept, understanding, to most, (and myself, not so long ago). But one that if true, could bring nothing less than a very profound, much startling clearer perspective, of the magnitude of Gods' frustration at that moment in time.

And i think all would "then agree"...that it be rightfully so...
rs.

reply to post by dirtusbagious
Yes it is an unfamiliar concept to most, and worth pondering. One should never just accept without looking at all possibilities. I was dicussing this thread with someone today & they reminded of something that may help you to understand a little better the magnitude of God's anger. It wasn't just the disobedience, it was something more. When God asked Adam what he had done, Adam said it was the woman that has done it, the woman that YOU gave me. So not only did he disobey God, but he then put the blame on God, saying in essense that it was God's fault because he created and gave Eve to Adam. Imagine your child disobeying the ONLY rule that you had laid down for him & then having the nerve to tell you that it was your fault that he disobeyed you.

reply to post by chise61

Yes it is an unfamiliar concept to most, and worth pondering. One should never just accept without looking at all possibilities. I was dicussing this thread with someone today & they reminded of something that may help you to understand a little better the magnitude of God's anger. It wasn't just the disobedience, it was something more. When God asked Adam what he had done, Adam said it was the woman that has done it, the woman that YOU gave me. So not only did he disobey God, but he then put the blame on God, saying in essense that it was God's fault because he created and gave Eve to Adam. Imagine your child disobeying the ONLY rule that you had laid down for him & then having the nerve to tell you that it was your fault that he disobeyed you.

"hi" chise61,
It's been nice talking with you and have enjoyed this conversation.

If you don't mind, i think i would like to bump it up a notch and further reveal the angle i am more recently leaning toward.

Currently i am running about a good solid 80/20 "for"/against this possibility, "The Seduction of Eve", actually being the reality. But still, that "is "short of 100%.

I don't recall "allll" of the plauges, so to speak, that became the result of whatever (?) really took place on that dreadfull day at the dawning of mankind. Yet I am just aware the curse continues till this very day.

I have no children, but can relate that God simply adored His new creation. And to utterley smite them (us) for what amounts to "sticking your hand in the cookie jar", or, "telling on your little sister", so to speak (though perhaps not greatest for comparisons), well, still, it seems unjustly harsh.

we are all aware that Noahs flood had very much to do with" cleansing... The cleansing of mankind that had, by that point, been corrupted. Litterally, by the inner-breeding of fallen angels with mortal women. Thus creating (Satans attempt at "immitating" the creation of mankind), from what i understand, "all kinds of strange little, not so little creatures". Thus Noah, and crew, being the last/only uncorrupted/DNA true red blooded "humans", were rescued to carry humanity onward.

"The Last Days", as well, refers to "as the days of Noah". That again (or even "still') human/fallen angels would pro-create, bearing again "all kinds of strange little creatures/superior-humanoid-types, ect., ect.," by the scores.
And, don't be surprised when "aliens" land on the Whitehouse lawn (literally, or perhaps figuratively, in an even different un-yet fathomed approach).

I do believe Adam and Eve disobeyed. But i also now feel that "Gods' command", may have been at-least-to-a-degree, an expression of "Warning".
A warning that "you will hurt yourself", to Adam and Eve. "Stay Awayyy!!".

And, ended up hurting themselves in such a harmful way, that it effected the very essence of the mortal human being creation, as a whole. That would include their spirit, soul, physical being, mind and yes, even the curse that would occur, for the handling of such a cursed thing, that being "Satan", in this case..

For me? this brings many pieces into place. And brings rather than God as an eager oppressor, instead to a realization of just how crushed He must have felt.

Still, i'm not attempting to paint "The pretty butterflies" scenerio. And i could be wrong. But still, i am glad to have recently been able to at least know of/ consider this new realization/extremely-insightfull-glance, of possible reality..

cheers...
rs.

I wouldn't trust anything Sherry Shriner says, hence the last name Shriner. I am pretty sure she is a dis-informationist.

reply to post by dirtusbagious
Thanks and right back atcha. Yes i agree he must have indeed been crushed. It's a hard pill for a parent to swallow when a beloved child crushes a parent's heart. All parents make mistakes at one time or another, sometimes they disipline a little to harshly and later regret it. He has however given us maney chances time & time again to redeem ourselves. The damage that they did was not only to themselves, but to everyone after them. They could not gain the knowledge of good and evil without passing it down to thier children and all future generations, which is probably why the disipline was so hard and is still ongoing.

I have no children, but can relate that God simply adored His new creation. And to utterley smite them (us) for what amounts to "sticking your hand in the cookie jar", or, "telling on your little sister", so to speak (though perhaps not greatest for comparisons), well, still, it seems unjustly harsh.

reply to post by dirtusbagious


in attempt to clarify this paragraph a bit...

""it seems unjustly harsh"", (key word, "unjustly")...therefore it seems reasonable to me, that there is more to the story as the mp3 suggests, than a simple "tree" and a piece of "fruit"...

Children "condemned" to death?? for raiding a cookie jar?? tattletelling??..

Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

Don't you know that both good and evil comes from God? He orders both war and settles peace, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh.

reply to post by dirtusbagious

You will have an easier time understanding it if you stop focusing on it as a "tree" or a "piece of fruit". It wasn't about eating fruit, it was about disobedience. A disobedience that gave them knowledge that they weren't supposed to have. A disobedience that affected all of thier decendants. A chid's disobedient act that effects someone besides himself must be dealt with at a harsher level than a disobedient act that only effects himself. That is still how wrongful actions are dealt with today. A drunk driver that has an accident and kills another person is going to get a much stiffer penality than a drunk driver that hits somebody's fence. And it wasn't only about the disobedience it was also the fact that they gave in to satan's temptation. The act itself (which effected others) combined with succumbing to satan's temptation is a far cry from a child sticking thier hand in a cookie jar, or tattling on thier sibling.

This one is short I know. But I agree. It was about disobediance. "Don't stay up late and listen to my opponents, because you will inherit their destinies of the absolute."

[edit on 6/5/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Hi
I belive that Eve was seduced,because in KJV Genesis 4,Eve says that the Lord gave me Cain.Which I think is Enki from Summer.makes Cain the first nephilim.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. ALSO! I've had computer troubles for past fortnight and haven't posted since then and so I apologize for any inconvenience caused by this delay (it appears I've been logged in all this time OMG!).

Thanks for the "heads up" information Neo Christian Mystic. I'm hoping and assuming its all in the Book of Enoch....

Personal Disclosure: ....which I intend to investigate soon! Thanks again.

reply to post by dirtusbagious

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. ALSO! I've had computer troubles for past fortnight and haven't posted since then and so I apologize for any inconvenience caused by this delay (it appears I've been logged in all this time OMG!).

dirtusbagious you ask and I quote "have you listened to the mp3?" and I reply at the time of your post I had not listened to it (I should have as it was in your O.P.) My Bad Sorry, I have now though.

I almost got caught up and was going to attack her ideology but its not yours and 2nd theres no need as your asking about linguistic and lexicological stuff (how stuff was written down and does it mean what it says?) and all I can reply is as this book was so important that those many priests whose job it was to "keep the record straight" would ensure the correct story was transmitted generation to generation by value and use of Occams Razor in that the simplest meaning of the word involved is what they (the writers, in this case GOD) are trying to transmit. So it becomes a matter of us discerning did GOD mean Eve was just deceived (i.e just conned so to speak) or was seduced (i.e had intimate relations regardless of whether she was conned).

Personal Disclosure: I don't know enough ancient hebrew ect to be able to investigate this and give you a quick simple answer other than to say again that Occams Razor in a linguistic & lexicological sense may help.

FYI According to Occam's razor, all other things being equal, the simplest theory is the most likely to be true. (in this case what has been written by GOD in the bible is most likely what it says at face value!!!). If the bible isn't credible what's that saying about its prime editor in chief (ie GOD)?