Undercover in Tibet

Very interesting read. Broadly sums up the counter argument and hypocrisy of the west

We hear that Tibetans suffer “demographic aggression” and “cultural genocide”. But we do not hear those terms applied to Spanish and French policies toward the Basque minority. We do not hear those terms applied to the US annexation of the Kingdom of Hawaii in 1898. And Diego Garcia? In 1973, not so long ago, the UK forcibly deported the entire native Chagossian population from the Indian Ocean island of Diego Garcia. People were allowed one suitcase of clothing. Nothing else. Family pets were gassed, then cremated. Complete ethnic cleansing. Complete cultural destruction. Why? In order to build a big US air base. It has been used to bomb Afghanistan and Iraq, and soon maybe to bomb Iran and Pakistan. Diego Garcia, with nobody there but Brits and Americans, is also a perfect place for rendition, torture and other illegal actions.

Considering this context, China’s treatment of its minorities has been exemplary compared to what the Western world has done to its minorities. After thousands of years of Chinese dominance, there still are more than 50 minorities in China. After a few hundred years of European dominance in North and South America, the original minority cultures have been exterminated, damaged, or diminished.

In China, ethnic minorities begin their primary schooling in their own language, in a school administered by one of their own community. Chinese language instruction is not introduced until age 10 or later. This is in sharp contrast to a history of coerced linguistic assimilation in most Western nations. The Australian government recently apologized to the Aboriginal minority for taking children from their families, forcing them to speak English, beating them if they spoke their mother tongue. China has no need to make such apology to Tibetans or to other minorities.

www.commondreams.org...

To the op. flag and star for putting this up. Just when I think china couldn’t get any worse it delivers. As another poster mentioned. # 2 A guy was asked if Americans or British had put him up to it (OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT) GOD they really don’t like to imagine that someone can have their own thought. It reminded me of that episode of the Simpsons. Where a bell rings when Lisa has 2 independent thoughts in one day.

reply to post by chinawhite

And what were they basing their "figures on"

As much as i know, they're basing these figures on the Beijing Daily from 1959,

According to China's State Statistical Bureau, the "TAR" had 1,273,969 people in November 1959. Tibetan areas of Kham then named as Xikang by China had 3,381,064 Tibetans. In Qinghai and other Tibetan areas incorporated into Gansu, Tibetans were reported to number 1,675,534. If the total of these three figures are taken, the Tibetan population then stood at 6,330,567. [People's Daily, Beijing, 10 November, 1959]

If you want to debunk this information, please present some scans of the Beijing Daily from the 11th of november 1959, thanks.

We could also use the Statement by westerners who visited Tibet before 1949
where the point

the death of one sixth of the population of Tibet (1.2 million)

is used. 1.2 million is not one sixth of the number you presented.

Here are 2 post you could answer

Sorry, i reread these posts and found nothing to answer to, would be nice if you could take the time to write down your questions once again, if i missed them.

Fine, now that i answered your question, how about answering mine.

He initially started talking about boycotting Chinese products because it was hurting American makers and then made this point about prisoners in China making inferior products then people called him up on that point to which he responded with human rights and China and it developed from there.

And just by the way, could you please back up your attacks with some proof ?

Why do you think, that that much Tibetans are risking their very lives in fleeing (!) from Tibet, when all that china has in mind is the best for these people ?

yes, Tibetans and Hollywood have worked hard to be on top of the list of Google searches.

Ahahaha, good one. As we all didn't know, who exactly pressurizes google into manipulating data.

from google blog

For last week’s launch of the Chinese-language edition of Google News, we had to decide whether sources that cannot be viewed in China should be included for Google News users inside the PRC. Naturally, we want to present as broad a range of news sources as possible. For every edition of Google News, in every language, we attempt to select news sources without regard to political viewpoint or ideology. For Internet users in China, we had to consider the fact that some sources are entirely blocked.

The Australian government recently apologized to the Aboriginal minority for taking children from their families, forcing them to speak English, beating them if they spoke their mother tongue. China has no need to make such apology to Tibetans or to other minorities.

Another good one. China has no need to make such apology to Tibetans ?

from www.cnsnews.com...

Although Tibetan - a language derived from ancient Sanskrit - remains a school subject, all other subjects such as mathematics are to be taught in the Chinese language, under new provisions that Beijing appears to be instituting gradually.

But let's get back to the recent riots for a second...
Remember the "tibetan holding a knife during the riots ?
from chinaview.wordpress.com...


Well, something smells here.... enlarge the original image to 400% and see for yourself, if it looks a bit strange, especially the smoke around the right arm.

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
As much as i know, they're basing these figures on the Beijing Daily from 1959,

Nope.

This figure has already been debuked.

They said " China's State Statistical Bureau" reported 1,273,969 Tibetan people in 1959. The 1953 census figures AGREED and CALCULATED by both sides in 1953 give a figure of 2,775,622. So in 6 years they are claiming that Tibet's population increased by more than 100%. Adding to the rebellion where Tibetans claim more than 100,000 and you the mere figure is debunked. How can any part of the population go from 2.8 million to 6 million in the span of 6 years


Here is the Chinese rebuttal

For several reasons, these gures seemed suspicious. Notably, the TAR did not even
exist in 1959, while Xikang was abolished in 1956. The Chinese government did not
publish annual population statistics at that time, particularly extremely detailed breakdowns
by region and ethnicity. Investigation by this author showed the citation above to be a
fabrication. TGIE sources in the 1990s still claim the total number of Tibetans to be about
6 million, and this gure is quite possible if taken to include all Tibetans worldwide, not
just those in China.

Why do you think, that that much Tibetans are risking their very lives in fleeing (!) from Tibet,

I have no idea. Theres a risk in everything and their trek on the mountain trials might seem like a risk to you but it might seem ordinary to Tibetans which have been doing it for a long time as religious pilgrimage

Ahahaha, good one. As we all didn't know, who exactly pressurizes google into manipulating data.

China is the first country to openly ask google to censor material. BUT thats only because China does not have the advanced US censorship technologies that the west has access to. Such as the technology used to track holocaust deniers in Germany

Another good one. China has no need to make such apology to Tibetans ?

I did not write that. But anyhow, its one more extra thing that Chinese allow Tibetans that the west does not

Remember the "tibetan holding a knife during the riots ?

I was the one which brang that up. Why can they only find SMALL pictures of it which they obviously modified

Epooch Times now claims that this picture was staged and the person who took it was a Chinese agent. They claim that the Chinese media released this picture and edited in the person with the sword into it.


Funny since a blogger named Kadfly who took the initial pictures first released it and Reuters was the first major news agency to release which Xinhua.net then got from Reuters. Epooch times has a tendency to make up lies, what I find funny is the fact that I am apparently a disgruntled communist member who relinquished my party membership simply by filling out a form they had on-line. Me and apparently 6 million other English speaking Chinese also relinquished party membership.

Another one is their claims that the peaceful rally in Toronto was "violent"

Anyway here is the rebuttal Zonaeuropa made
www.zonaeuropa.com...

Picture in question



I managed to find his full size original photograph. Even though Epooch Times theory has be debuked if someone inserted the guy with the sword in he is very very good. The persons expression with the flame and smoke in his eyes, the shadows look flawless. Maybe because its real



Another instance of them falsifying information

This picture was made at least before 2003 after Monks refused to be part of a movie. PLA soldiers were ordered to put the robes on instead. The original source was buddhism.kalachakranet.org posted on the 20 march and the intention of posting the picture was to say that China did this already and they did it again coinciding with the "supposed" British report. It did not claim this was people who actually took part in the riots. The picture was first seen on the back-cover of the 2003 annual TCHRD Report


Again more false propaganda from these pro-Tibetans

I'll like more things answered by you aswell which I would not have followed up

www.abovetopsecret.com...


In response to "xinhuanet distortion of truth" about german TV apologies


Dont try to lie about this topic because they did apologise and you claim that Xinhua.net lied which I have proven below to be false. Another example of why "western" opinions are ignorant because they lack information and yet go on to make "fantastic" sounding claims which have no basis of the truth


DENY IGNORANCE


RTL-TV apology

Indeed, the recording shows security forces in Nepal, a neighbouring country of the Chinese province of Tibet. Das Bild entstand am 17. The image was taken on 17 März in der Hauptstadt Kathmandu. March in the capital, Kathmandu. Dort sind nepalesische Sicherheitskräfte mit Knüppeln gegen Demonstranten vorgegangen, die gegen die Politik Chinas in Tibet auf die Straße gegangen waren. There are Nepalese security forces against demonstrators with clubs which are against the policies of China in Tibet on the streets. Wir haben versehentlich den Eindruck erweckt, bei der Szene handele es sich um die Unruhen in Tibet und chinesische Sicherheitskräfte. We have accidentally created the impression at the scene, it is the unrest in Tibet and Chinese security forces. Diesen Fehler bedauern wir und stellen gleichzeitig fest: RTLaktuell.de berichtet unabhängig. We regret this error and make notes: RTLaktuell.de reported independently.

Link



Trying to change the subject from your initial claim?



I used CNN simply because it wasn't Chinese which counters the potentional counter-argument you would have made if I had used a Chinese source

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
Want another example of xinhuanet distortion of truth ?

Where are the first examples?????

So why did you quote Xinhua if it so distorted the truth?



"Fair-weather" distortion?




BTW: You cannot distort figures you can only distort the way information is presented. CNN can't make the figure disappear but they can change the purpose of what the money is for


Are you going to deny they distorted their pictures?






It would be a extreme folly of Xinhua to lie on their English website because it leaves it open to attack from other western websites. Xinhua has never lied on a issue EVER. It has non-reported or given less reporting time to a issue but it has never made up figures or facts. The articles below and other articles on-line give credibility to the Xinhua report


Even western sites had seen them

Bertelsmann buys into China unit
Media giant enters market with Ad Society
By ED MEZA
German media giant Bertelsmann has entered the Chinese TV industry with a 16.5% stake in production group-ad agency Ad Society.

News of RTL's involvement in the Chinese TV market follows public apologies and corrections issued by RTL's German channels and its news web N-TV for misrepresentations of the unrest in Tibet and Nepal.

A spokesman for N-TV said a report that aired March 20 on the conflict in Tibet inadvertently showed images from neighboring Nepal, where Tibetan demonstrators have also clashed with police.

The spokesman said editors caught the error, and the images, which came from international news agencies, were immediately removed.

Similarly, RTL Television said that an image on its website reportedly showing Tibet was also a photo of demonstrations in Nepal.

Link

Berlin - A German news television channel, N-TV, admitted Monday it had mistakenly aired news footage from Nepal on one day during news coverage of protests by Tibetans against Chinese rule.

Separately, a website owned by another German channel, RTL, admitted that the caption of one still photograph taken in Nepal had been erroneous. On Sunday, the Chinese news agency Xinhua had accused Western media of false reporting on the violence.

N-TV said that a still photograph and a video sequence shown on March 20 in a report about Tibet had in fact been taken in Nepal. It said editors had noticed the error and subsequently replaced the images.

'We are extremely sorry,' an N-TV spokesman said in Cologne.

RTL's website, RTLaktuell.de, said late Sunday, 'It's true that amid our detailed reporting on the Tibet conflict, there was one case where a picture was displayed in the wrong context.

'The picture actually shows security forces in Nepal. It was taken on March 17 in the capital Kathmandu while Nepalese security forces were responding with truncheons to demonstrators protesting against Chinese policies in Tibet.

'We erroneously created the impression that the scene was of the unrest in Tibet and showed Chinese security forces.

'We apologize for this error, while pointing out that RTLaktuell.de reports without bias,' the news site said.

monstersandcritics.com

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
chinaview.wordpress.com...

Where is the line in the pavement?. How come the line happened to disappear where that guy was standing and the colors are blurred. How come they can only post a very very small picture while there are high resolution pictures releashed which are about 500% larger which don't need to be magnified



Contrast a real picture with the photoshoped Tibetan picture






The smoke was was not masking the line. There was no smoke there. ONLY a person standing there which was masking the line which they photoshoped and made incredibly small so NO ONE can make out the details






[edit on 16-4-2008 by chinawhite]

OMG chinawhite, are you serious? You Chinese members are the most OBSESSED of ALL nationalists on this planet. I've never seen such effort go into propaganda posts until these Chinese threads began. Not ONE thread can start about a critical Chinese issue, without 3 or 4 Chinese members creating HUGE posts, in tandem. You guys are GREAT at drowning out the opinions of others. Bravo!

I know you guys say you're not being paid, but you certainly deserve to be.

[edit on 16-4-2008 by 27jd]

Originally posted by 27jd
creating HUGE posts, in tandem. You guys are GREAT at drowning out the opinions of others. Bravo!

If you consider those large than take a look at the weaponry section or aircraft section which I have frequented more often.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Its not my problem that FT people cant come up with a suitable argument to continue a genuine discussion.

reply to post by chinawhite


I clicked on your link in hopes of finding you discussing something OTHER than 'anti-US/pro-China' so that you may seem more, well...human...

The Chinese military is no third world Iraqi military based in the open desert.

and I was of course disappointed.

Do you guys eat, breath, and sleep China? I have SO many interests, OTHER than the USA. As do most others. I can be debating with somebody from say, eastern Europe, about some kind of political issue that we may disagree on, but on another thread about a different issue, maybe something non-political altogether, in which we agree and it makes me feel like we are all human and that there is hope for us to one day see past the BS our government feeds us and say enough is enough. I don't feel so optimistic when I'm reading these Chinese posts. You guys are like f-ing Terminators, all emotion seems fabricated, and EVERY post is pro-China. Without exception. Every reply to members critical of the PRC in EVERY thread, is a HUGE production in which EVERY little criticism is addressed, complete with images and added graphics for emphasis. It is just IMPOSSIBLE for me to believe you guys are just doing this in your spare time. But hey, that's just me.

And I really don't know what you guys would consider a "suitable" argument. Since you have all made it clear you don't trust anything coming out of the west, unless it is pro-China, you will just dismiss the source.


[edit on 16-4-2008 by 27jd]

reply to post by 27jd


What's the problem of having someone debunking a propaganda lie? Would you rather that only some pro-Tobetans cuddling each other with the propaganda, then you can go to the sites of Free Tibet

These posts are not even overly exhaustive when I compare it to posts in the Alien sections and so on Especially threads debunking fuzzy blurry moon pictures, motherships and so on

Also, please try to never forget that there are like one fifth of the world population Chinese, and we are talking about only less than a handful of active Chinese posters in a verly hostile environment with much more pro-Tibetan supporters. In a site where non-Chinese people will fingerpointing and calling us propaganda agents.

This motivates me even more to keep on continue coming back to show ignorant people the other side of the stories either you like it or not. You can go out making a proposal to ATS that all Chinese members never come to ATS, so you can keep it pro-China free in these pro-Tibetan threads buddy.

And if you check some pro-Tibetan posts, you will see how they also only posted in Tibet issues threads, like Witness and so on. Again you are only accusing and fingerpointing Chinese members again while the pro-Tibetan camps are doing the same stuff.

[edit on 16/4/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
Also, please try to never forget that there are like one fifth of the world population Chinese, and we are talking about only less than a handful of active Chinese posters in a verly hostile environment with much more pro-Tibetan supporters. In a site where non-Chinese people will fingerpointing and calling us propaganda agents. This motivates me even more to keep on continue coming back to show ignorant people the other side of the stories ethe ryou like it or not.

Well, you know by now I'm not a pro-Tibetan supporter. But I am against violent crackdowns by large governments on unarmed populations. I am against that REGARDLESS of the government doing it. And before you even say it, I am AGAINST it when the US does it as well. But you know that, right Ichi? And yes, sorry, I do believe some of you are propaganda agents. Maybe because I have never seen this kind of voracity before, on any board. Maybe it's just a Chinese thing, I dunno.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
You can go out making a proposal to ATS that all Chinese members never come to ATS, so you can keep it pro-China free in these pro-Tibetan threads buddy.

Nope. I'd never propose that. Like I said, I just want to see some that I can believe are human, lol.

reply to post by 27jd


You have noticed that they don't touch the crimes that china committs in Tibet. The documentary is just staged propaganda and their insistance will some how change our minds. They are here to disrupt and derail. They keep everyone arguing and researching things that have nothing to do with the subject...derailed. I am amussed that my candle business is a topic with our chinese friends. It seems in their minds I am advocating a boycott so I can sell more candles. Care to buy some candles 27jd?

Originally posted by Witness2008
Care to buy some candles 27jd?

If you make some that smell really bad so my stupid bengal cat won't eat them, lol.

Our Chinese "frenemies" as Stephen Colbert calls them, are SO persistant and effective in spreading the PRC's message, that it almost makes me want to join them. I mean, like I said, they're Terminators. They WILL keep coming back, there's nothing we can do to stop them. They repeat the same thing so much, it makes me believe it, lol. The western MSM is out to get China, I never really realized it before, but now I do. If you can't beat em, join em.

[edit on 16-4-2008 by 27jd]

reply to post by 27jd


I was surfing over some of the older tibet threads and noticed that when they are at a loss for how to twist what someone posts the personal insults begin. I find it all entertaining. I can boast being a target of chinese propaganda..I have the u2u's to prove it.

No stinkey candles..sorry.

Originally posted by 27jd
Do you guys eat, breath, and sleep China?

Maybe i'll dumb down my replies in future?. One sentence answers fine with you?

You can tell that by about 50 post?

When Im in a American forum its mostly because there are unjust comments regarding Chinese policies and the huge outpouring of propaganda. See for yourself the amount of threads started by Pro-Tibetans. On the internet I dont care for other things except for education. I dont spend my days playing computer games or other thigns when I can do it in real life. I'd rather spend computer time on better issues than "celebrity" gossip or "emotional" break downs

You guys are like f-ing Terminators

Its a serious topic. Nothing to joke about. Maybe thats the difference between us. Anyway, you wouldn't have a clue who I am and what I do, you simply make assumptions based on things I write at ATS?. What else do you expect people to reply with in a SERIOUS discussion about global issues?. Bring up what they had for dinner???





[edit on 16-4-2008 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by Witness2008
You have noticed that they don't touch the crimes that china committs in Tibet.

So we are in this thread because we like puppies?


You are at a lost to see that other people have a opinion on a issue and you think by posting a link we will "believe" you. I have my own perspectives on what is happening and yet you tell me I'm wrong. Oh, I thought this was a forum for "free" thought and discussion. You contend that China commits "crimes" in Tibet yet you are at a lost to prove any of these "crimes"

Originally posted by 27jd
But I am against violent crackdowns by large governments on unarmed populations.

And what is your opinion on the March 14 Tibet riots?.

Unarmed or armed?

So what is your opinion on a government crackdown on "armed" protesters?

reply to post by 27jd


Yes I know that, understand you much more after our U2U and publich discussions. However I still fail to understand why you still label people propaganda agents. My criticism is about the implying that all pro-Chinese posters are agents.

reply to post by 27jd


Sacarsm in certain instances will not help people come closer to each other and should be used more carefully.