Undercover in Tibet

Ichi and chinawhite..

I'll have to get back with you guys, I'm off work, FINALLY, yay! After the gym, I'll be back to answer the questions and points you raised...

Originally posted by chinawhite
Maybe i'll dumb down my replies in future?. One sentence answers fine with you?

Not so much dumb them down, but maybe wrap them up a little quicker, lol. When you are replying to Americans, remember, our attention spans are very short. What were we talking about again?

You can tell that by about 50 post?

Well, yeah. ALL 50 posts that I read from you revolve around China, I can tell.

When Im in a American forum its mostly because there are unjust comments regarding Chinese policies and the huge outpouring of propaganda. See for yourself the amount of threads started by Pro-Tibetans.

Why do you care though? Why is it important what people who really have no power or connection to your life think? That's what I don't get. I understand posting you're opinions on a topic, but to relentlessly dissect every post critical to China, and reply to each one with a massive post seems like I huge waste of time and energy. I've never seen anything like it, and that's why I'm so suspicious.

On the internet I dont care for other things except for education. I dont spend my days playing computer games or other thigns when I can do it in real life. I'd rather spend computer time on better issues than "celebrity" gossip or "emotional" break downs

Well, I'm not into those things either. But I still have other interests besides defending my political beliefs and nationality from anonymous individuals who's opinions aren't anymore valid than my own.

Its a serious topic. Nothing to joke about. Maybe thats the difference between us.

Yeah, you guys take insignificant things TOO seriously, that is the difference. And if you didn't like my joke, why did you change your avatar to a terminator?

Anyway, you wouldn't have a clue who I am and what I do, you simply make assumptions based on things I write at ATS?.

That's all I have to go on chinawhite. That's the extent of our relationship, ATS. And based on the amount of time and effort some of you guys spend pitching for the Chinese government, it's hard to believe you're not being paid. No matter how much some of us say we have NO problem with the Chinese people, you guys continue to act as if the government IS China.

Originally posted by chinawhite
And what is your opinion on the March 14 Tibet riots?.

Unarmed or armed?

Unarmed. I don't consider knives, swords, shurikens, etc. being armed vs. armored vehicles, fully automatic rifles, riot gear, etc. Show me some footage of monks with machine guns, and I'll consider it armed. The Chinese government could have responded with equal force, non-lethally. Since reports from BOTH sides are going to be biased, all I can go on is my instinct, and the nature of the parties involved.

So what is your opinion on a government crackdown on "armed" protesters?

Well, it just depends I guess on the actions of the armed protesters. Each situation should be considered individually. Look back to the LA riots, most of the rioters were armed with guns, looting and attacking innocent people, however the US government did not send in the military to start mowing them down in the streets. If individual armed rioters are going to cause obvious harm to somebody, then they should be taken out. I think the guys who pulled the innocent driver from his truck and proceeded to beat him nearly to death, should have been shot on site. The same would go for any Tibetans who were trying to kill people, IMO. However, it's easy to believe thugs from LA would do that, but hard to picture Buddhist monks beating somebody to death. Like I said, I have to rely on my instincts and the nature of the parties involved, since unlike LA, journalists were not allowed in. That speaks volumes to me.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by 27jd]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
However I still fail to understand why you still label people propaganda agents. My criticism is about the implying that all pro-Chinese posters are agents.

Well, like I stated to chinawhite, I just have a hard time believing that a human being, in their spare time, is only interested in defending the actions of their government. If this is true, then it's very sad to me, and a glaring example of just how deeply the PRC is capable of brainwashing it's people. I WANT to believe that the intensely pro-PRC (not pro-Chinese) posters are agents, because if what you say is true, and the PRC has truly conditioned the Chinese population to the point of almost calling for war over mere criticism in the media, then the nation of China is truly dangerous and a threat to MY people and culture. I don't want to believe that a war between our countries is almost inevitable, because the oil demand is rising and the supply is dropping, and western civilization WILL criticize the PRC for their human rights abuses the same as we WILL criticize and pressure our own leaders for theirs. It seems to me the PRC is trying to incite Chinese hatred towards us, and it's working. Their motives are concerning to me.

Sacarsm in certain instances will not help people come closer to each other and should be used more carefully.

Nah, I think we're pretty close already Ichi. You know me better than to take offense to my sarcasm.

reply to post by 27jd


then you mean writing a few posts and replies here and there on these forums on internet, watching a few youtube videos, reading a few articles and reports, that all this is "all the free/spare time" of Chinese posters?

1) Most of the English speaking Chinese netizens are abroad and not in mainland China. Don't over-estimate the English literacy level in China

2) I suspect that Chinawhite and many others are simply copy/pasting from some researches from others, effectively reducing the time someone need to spend to post here (Chinawhite, correct me if I am wrong)

3) I still don't think the so-called "Internet Briagde" of China is interested in coming to ATS, they would rather monitor the Chinese speaking forums. Those are popping up on a daily base and discussions even fiercer and fanatic about the internal problems rather than this Western anti-China issue than you might even thought about the "sheeps in China." It is hot topic though, but not that it will affect the daily life much. (Advice: get a friend who can read simplified Chinese, make some random check on www.baidu.com for Chinese discussions groups. And check what is being discussed )

4) Back to the Chinese netizens in the mainland, I do have to admit that many are obsessed fanatics in whatever they are doing on the net. Either it be a Multi-player Online game, or discussions politics. I heard stories that some sick guys even killed someone because in the online game the other sick being-murdered guy did not returned a borrowed Sword. But out of these mindless wasted Chinese youth, there is only a very small limited amount who can speak English, and mostly extremely bad and broken English. (Even worse than me with a magnitude you might not even call it English anymore and plainout a new unknown newly discovered language). I have seen some of these popping up in other forums ranting, but mostly ignored by even the Chinese posters.



As for the sacarsm comment, I was busting your balls On a serious note, you have to understand that Chinese people think differently, I was raised up in the West, loves Friends, X-Files and hollywood movies, understand and have the sense of humor which you see in Europe and America. BUT even I will be very carefully using this kind of humor when I am face-to-face talking with ordinary people in China who never really have been in touch with the Western culture. In my office my employees know their boss long enough now and had been in contact with Western (and other) customers frequent enough to understand it and can laugh out loud when sacarsm is used, but even these born and raised Chinese in the mainland will look upon me with weird eyes. Oh by the way, don't miss-understand me, there is a huge sense of humor in China for certain kind of sacarsm too, especially when the Hong Kong culture and movies are the most watched and appreciated lifestyle

[edit on 17/4/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by 27jd
Not so much dumb them down, but maybe wrap them up a little quicker

You cant answer something in a short post. If I post little answers and dont expand my contention than people will ask things I would have answered intially. I can also use a larger post to refer back for its sources and argument.

Well, yeah. ALL 50 posts that I read from you revolve around China, I can tell.

Well, this forum to me is about global politics. I don't see it as a social place to interact with people. I just want to discuss politics mainly with a focus on Chinese issues. I'm not out here to win friends on line because you they arent you friends!. That means they cant do things with you in normal life and I keep what I do on the internet separate from what is happening in real life

Why is it important what people who really have no power or connection to your life think?

Thats the purpose of a forum. Argument. If the people of the world can see eye to eye than we would have world peace

And if you didn't like my joke, why did you change your avatar to a terminator?

LOL,

Well, my friend is german looking and loves his guns and had this Arnold Schwarzenegger looking haircut so we call him arnold in out "heavy" german accent. I dont know but what you called me reminded me of him. If you did know me that would be the exact opposite of me.

That's the extent of our relationship, ATS. And based on the amount of time and effort some of you guys spend pitching for the Chinese government, it's hard to believe you're not being paid. No matter how much some of us say we have NO problem with the Chinese people, you guys continue to act as if the government IS China.

That comes down back to the essential argument. Attack on China whatever form is to us Chinese people an attack China itself.

The CCCP has 65 million members and those members have family which is essentially about 50% directly tied to the government in some way or form. If you say that the government steals organs your basically suggesting that our family is helping in the death of people or that we are barbaric enough to do the crimes people accuse us of. Do you see my angle on the situation?



[edit on 17-4-2008 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
2) I suspect that Chinawhite and many others are simply copy/pasting from some researches from others, effectively reducing the time someone need to spend to post here

(Chinawhite, correct me if I am wrong)

About 90% is what i have just wrote up and the rest is from previous post I have made at other forums. If I used someone else information I have marked it.

Originally posted by 27jd
Unarmed. I don't consider knives, swords, shurikens, etc. being armed vs. armored vehicles, fully automatic rifles, riot gear, etc.

When the riots occured. The people in the streets were buring people alive and butchering people on the street while the police were heavily outnumbered. There is no evidence that any shots were fired. Nor did police vehicles plour into people

However, it's easy to believe thugs from LA would do that, but hard to picture Buddhist monks beating somebody to death.

We are not talking about monks beating people to death. We are talking about the "ghetto" Tibetans going out with swords and other deadly weapons. The media you are seeing shows Tibet to be a peaceful buddist country while if you examen their history they were as bad a Genghis Khan, the 5th Dalai Lama made Paris Hilton look like a nun. The western media makes out as if Tibetans are all like the Dalai Lama


Anyway, why are people surprised about the amount I write?, maybe when someone finishes one paragraph, I finish four.

This is as important a thread as I have read about China and Tibet. You all can be proud of your participation here.

It is not a perfect place to learn the truth but it is an education in its own right.

This portion of the Tibet article from the all to imperfect Wikipedia is worth a look again.
Khoshud, Dzungars, and the Qing Dynasty

The popular western view of Tibet held me enthralled as did the polished history of my own United States until I became old enough to seek a deeper truth. I like the polished lie better than the tarnished reality. But I also like to play Oblivion more than I like a tooth extraction.

I would like to think that Tibet has value enough as an entity to deserve sovereignty but I am learning that sovereignty requires power. If Tibet is not able to conquer China then Tibet is forfeit. Is this statement not true? Is the world fare?

Some how I hope that Tibet is preserved for its uniqueness. I believe that all beliefs of peoples have value beyond any power or material wealth and that Tibetan Buddhism is a unique and priceless gem of humanity. If Tibet is lost because of politics and materialism then humanity looses irreplaceable wisdom; once again as we have so many times before.

IMHO its time to value wisdom more than legalities for the good of all. Is there room in the world for both China and Tibet? Will China be strong enough to make room and rise above these issues? Let us hope so. But the World has to want this for it to be so.

I believe that China will not be forced but that perhaps China will be more gracious when not being coerced. Perhaps the world could buy Tibet from China and give it back to the Dalai Lama.

Q:"Yea right, and what kind pipe are you smoking."
A: "A peace pipe... 'Hear' have some..."

[edit on 19-4-2008 by Sativarg]

[edit on 19-4-2008 by Sativarg]

reply to post by Sativarg


Welcome to ATS. And I agree with many of your thoughts. I think with some of us that have watched the happenings in Tibet over the years realize that a free Tibet is idealistic, however the movement has become one of save Tibet. The Dalai Lama only asks for cultural and spiritual freedom. We fear the total loss of the ancient wisdom that is survived mostly through the Tibetan culture.

I'm a normal Chinese business people and accidentally came into this thread, when reading all replies I feel like to tell a common react of a normal Chinese people, believe or not

The tibet problem itself is only an excuse that US and some European countries who are not so happy seeing China getting more and more atract and power in this world, it used to be taiwan issue, falungon years before, and now it;s tibet.

all the footages I would like to say any people who has political opinions, especually mediaman can make footgaes according to their will, you can take out this and I can take out that. Yes, China i snot as democratic as US, so what? does that abuse every normal Chinese people's life now? Do you think it's more important when we are still strgggling with rising prices especially unreasonable house prices in big cities which a normal salary man can never afford a two beds room with 30 years' totsl income?

I feel sorry for those tebetan people living abroad, this is a historical problem in my opinion, when about 50 year ago, dalai lama led his crew of followers and decided to leave China, that was the start of a mistake. these group of people and their later born kids became countryless refuggee in India, they can not share development of tibet as their people who is still living in tibet, they were led into a wrong path and only choice is to keep on. So what they can do is like, if I can not share that, I would ruin that.

There's a Chinese saying, three people makes a tiger, what means three people continouasly saying there's a tiger in the city which does not exist at all, it still makes quite a alot people panic. Seeing a theose fake stories, photoshopped pictures, I just feel sorry for them.

and if nobody comes out and debate on the lies, they would say," see? they do not speak, it's truth", if someone debates over and even convince people in certain extent, they would say, "it's just debate, why so serious?" even worse, those who have never been to tibet, even to China, which all their knowledge come from BBC,CNN stories, they deny everything about China before they try to understand.

and to such people, I think the only way is, if you don't listen, I won't sa either, isn't that the same method of US government to a number of hostile countries in the world? we will do it either, anway thr fact will tell everything, the economy will tell everything, sometimes even military power, just like US did to Irag and Afghanistan and other countries.

my English is not quite good, I'm just a normal people , one of 1.3 billion, just my view, i'm not tryng t convince any of you guys caese I know I can't, just say words i wouls like to express in your free media. Good luck you fellows. go on