The push towards materialism

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
I have noticed a large push towards materialism/atheism in what I see as an attempt to stamp out spiritualism.

That seems to me as if you equate atheism with materialism, they can however be very seperate.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Wouldn't it be easy to control a population that did not believe in the concept of a soul? With the common belief being this life was all there is a threat of death takes on more weight.

Why would it be easier? Religion controls whole swathes of people by tellign them that their soul will go to hell if they do certain things. Religion seems to be the perfect control mechanism.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
But that is my question. Do you think that is a possible aim?

I don't believe atheism plays a part (and i say that as a non atheist), but i do think materialism plays a huge part. Keeping people centered on what they can obtain, making that the important aspect of their lives is very damaging. I think it could be said it's one of the key downfalls of our society. I think it has gotten to the point where children equate what they are given by their parents as directly proportional to how much they love them.

I think this ends up causing massive problems in the whole of society and it keeps people nicely distracted. Instead of dealing with important issues, just go and buy something shiny, dangle it infront of yourself and let your mind wander.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
That is not to say I am calling all atheists evil btw. Or brainwashed sheeple. But this is a good question to ask. And I am NOT seeking to attack anyone or any belief.

Well i wouldn't call them those things either, i would however call atheists as zelous and arrogant as anyone who belives in a god, but that's just my view and i don't want to upset anyone. Agnosticism ftw, all who can join me on the fence lol.




[edit on 10-4-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by Conspiriology

He gave Bill Gates as the name to represent Atheism.

It's a simple classic claiming of famous personalities for this or that cause.
You know "Einstein was an atheist. Blah blah was gay." and on and on and on.
Often has very little to do with what the real person thought but just some cause wanting to borrow the celebrity of someone.



reply to post by Conspiriology


Actually a population of radicals would be painfully easy to control.
As long as your the same shade of radical that they are.
Otherwise it'd be an impossible feat.
That is what your great radical leaders wanted. To make the world like then so then could then thusly rule it.
Too bad the world doesn't work like that and getting everyone to agree is the impossible dream.
Which is why I say we need to learn tolerance.

But on another note. I do not believe in a "end times" scenario, I do believe things are coming to a boil but it has happened before. Look at WW2 it didn't happen in a vacuum, it was a accumulation of the past 100 or more years of stuff. Sort of like now.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Perhaps I used the wrong words. I am pretty sure I did.
I meant materialism in the sense of a belief system that states this material world is all there is.

I can see a advantage for someone seeking complete control of the people to encourage such a belief as this being all there is. As I have covered earlier in the thread.

What most people don't realize is that the evolution of technology, science and consciousness go hand in hand. The evolution of consciousness brings about the evolution in scientific theories therefore, the advancement of technology, and the evolution consciousness.. I believe that by letting technology supersede spirituality compromises one's integrity by only allowing themselves to look beyond, rather than within.

One Japanese monk decides to give his offerings (basket of oranges) to the spirits in the forest.

How does a person from a western country react to the above statement. Most likely that the monk is following blind faith and highly superstitious. Then what the person didn't even make an effort to realize is that... as the basket lays on the floor in the forest, a bunch of monkeys consume it, later on the monkeys digest it, then they secrete the waste, the droppings act as fertilizer for the orange seeds that were consumed, a few days later the monk sees sprouts of orange plants all over the forest.

Looking within oneself isn't a superstitious act, it is symbolic. The betterment of oneself is the key to endless possibilities. If mankind devoted some time looking within, the prospects for Science and Technology would be tremendous and wonderful, all the while we are looking within ourselves to find even more answers.

reply to post by D.Wolf

Blindly following the path of brothers. Yelling what is being yelled, wildly attacking anything out of the way of what’s programmed by whatever the ‘religions’ propagates. Being a being of christ, mohammed, political candidate, sport club, patriotism or materialism. No matter what collective you choose, it will bear the seeds of extremism in it.

Very true, if one follows the collective. While I agree that most people do, there are still some of us who do not.

Yet as much as I pride myself on my independence and ability to withstand the winds of popular opinion, even I have to admit that it feels good to hear others back up my feelings. I suspect this is simply another part of the human condition, something that exists within us from birth.

I must make one point against your assessment. While people do tend to follow the crowd, the only way known to lessen this is to have a baseline, something that, when corruption of the charter principles of the collective are perverted to an unacceptable degree, can be brought out to correct the thinking of that collective. We have such a protection in America; it is known as the Constitution. There is another such baseline in one of the groups you mention: the Bible. This is not to say such baselines cannot or will not be ignored; they have been many times in the past, and no doubt they will be many times yet to come. But at least they do exist as a barrier to total corruption.

TheRedneck

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

I don't believe atheism plays a part (and i say that as a non atheist), but i do think materialism plays a huge part. Keeping people centered on what they can obtain, making that the important aspect of their lives is very damaging. I think it could be said it's one of the key downfalls of our society. I think it has gotten to the point where children equate what they are given by their parents as directly proportional to how much they love them.

Perhaps I am in the minority here, and I certainly don't wish to offend anyone. But I have what seems to be a unique view on atheism which may be of interest in this case.

Atheism, more technically the lack of a belief in the supernatural, seems to me to exist as more than an absolute. Not to say that the absolute atheist is non-existent; that could be easily disproved by a simple review of almost any ATS thread remotely concerning religion. But I also see other degrees of atheism.

In a larger sense, I believe that the atheistic concept can be applied to a wide variation of beliefs, from the person who adamantly disbelieves in any supernatural force whatsoever to the person who attends church regularly, but does not truly 'believe' in the church's basis. Most of the people who consider themselves Christians are in fact such in name only (IMHO, of course ). No doubt this is due to upbringing in a church environment and societal pressures.

A fierce belief in a supreme being denies the necessity of material things and negates the fear of death. This in turn is an obvious obstacle to anyone wishing to control those who harbor that fierce belief. Thusly, a substitute for belief must be offered, and here we have the emergence of materialism... interestingly enough, regardless of the various definitions of it. Materialism as a quest for material goods, or as a denial of the non-material, it makes no difference in this context. Either substitutes material wealth for spiritual enlightenment. Either is engaged in a denial to some degree of the worship of something greater than man himself, and therefore greater than the men who wish to control populations.

TheRedneck

I think that you may find that many atheists, indeed people who generally are unsure about the answers that established religions provide, are not people who only seek material advantage in this one lifetime which death will end, as you put it. I think that many atheists are fairly optimistic about the concept of only having one lifetime to spend. One lifetime to achieve everything you can, one lifetime to achieve a higher state of consciousness, one lifetime to play out in this magnificent cosmic whirlpool. I see having one lifetime as an impetus to experience and learn as much as I possibly can, not just to achieve some hedonistic state of material advantage which in the end is meaningless to this life.

I think you would need to define very specifically which kind of person/atheist you are speaking about. There are many people caught up in the material world, pushed by television and fashion, pushed by those making money from vanity. These people are of all religions and belief systems, and is not a reflection of these beliefs, but but of the human condition, which is by definition a state of imperfection.

Atheist or religious, human beings will always be imperfect, but like many other atheists, I have hope, and like many other adherents of religious faiths, I have hope. We are the most beautiful creatures in the known universe, and one day we will be able to act that way.

reply to post by Moegli


I think you have raised a very important point. In my lifetime scientific discovery and advancement has brought about the most significant developments in my spiritual beliefs. We constantly new things about this great existence, and one of the things which fascinates me most is the world of the quantum. We know, scientifically, that there exist different dimensions of reality outside and independent of the four that we hold as our physical reality; time and space. Our minds are not turing machines, they compute in a dimension strange to us, and a dimension which allows as many possibilities as any religious faith. There is a possibility of existence when our physical selves have dissipated, there is the possibility that our minds can navigate in any possible direction along this strange dimension, this quantum entanglement with length, breadth, hight and time.

Science has shown us much of this, and I believe that in the future, perhaps a few thousand years, man will have come to a far fuller understanding of the universe and ourselves, and what is the mind, and the soul, and consciousness, and all that is possible.

As an etheist/agnostic, this is a beautiful world to live in, where we can fully understand all of these things.

reply to post by The_Modulus

I must admit that you have me at an extreme disadvantage on the subject of Atheism. As a Christian, I find it difficult to conceive the idea of there not being a loving God. My post was more about my personal observations and not reflective of an actual theory as to what Atheists are, or believe.

My point, which perhaps was not presented in the best manner, was that even those who profess a faith sometimes still succumb easily to materialism. A fierce belief in a supreme being would seem (to me) to be a hindrance to that lure of materialism. Sheesh, I hope I am making some sense here; am I?

TheRedneck

In Animal farm from Geroge orwell. The raven was allowed to continue preaching about sugar top mountain where all the animals go when they die, to keep the drones under control. It was thought that if the animals beleived they were going to sugar top mountain (Paraphrasing the name.)
then they would behave and figure that all will be well in the end.
Religion is espicially useful in controlling the masses as a common banner and for doing what your told because this is just one life of servitude and you better listen and do well because if you don't make the cut youll burn in hell fire for eternity.

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Trust me, this is not a recent push. Once I became aware of what was going on, actually a little bit at a time, I started reading pretty heavily and watching documentaries and pretty much stopped watching TV for about 3 yrs. Recently I was injured and out of curiosity, decide to surf the tv to see what's what.

I'm not missing much, that's for sure, so I found a cpl stations [ broadcast, not cable ] that play some pretty old stuff, like Mr. Lucky. I watched that crap as a kid, but now that I look back on it, I could see what they were selling back then, it was materialism and elitism. Some shows threw in the Lord for good measure for a while, but not the new stuff.

It is a mix of fornication, mostly idolatry, where money, looks, sex and materialism rules and the big dog eats the little dog and folks think they just need to drink or meditate to chill out and cope but the next day the rat race starts all over again, so they are never any better off than they were before.

Lots of melancholy and the upbeat is shallow fluff with no substance. People are totally lost...

I believe that once you consider life to be something that isn't sacred, you have stuck your proverbial foot in the door to all manner of abuses and crimes against humanity.


Since we ARE life, don't we have a responsibility to invest in the business OF life? Aren't health, freedom, and safety worth investing in more so than any financial endeavor? Wouldn't the dividends of these investments have value far in excess of anything money could buy?


The importance of life, and the relationship we have with the "spiritual" essences and studies related to it... are things which must be cherished and held sacred and dear by all of us. For if we lose sight of this then we forsake the foundation our existence is built on.


The financial world, while certainly important, is a device built on a foundation which presumes that there are healthy and free living beings to buy and sell. Remove them, or deny them sustenance and no financial world can exist.


Prop any presumptions of a high social order on a foundation any less strong than a spiritual ideal of the responsibility of all living creatures to the preservation of nature's living design, and that order will be doomed to fall. It may only exist as long as it parasitically feeds on the life that enables it.


Keep feeding it... eventually it will eat you.


[edit on 10-4-2008 by ianr5741]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


reply to post by Zealott


reply to post by The_Modulus


You all bring forth valid points but I can't get over the feeling that your avoiding the main question I ask.

Which is as follows, with a population that believes this is all there is would they or would they not be easier to control?

I am by no means telling everyone they must run off and find "gawd", as I agree with you that organized religion is, well to put it nicely, tainted for the sake of control, but there is a question I think that is worth asking.

And mostly I see alot of avoidance of that question.

But a great many good points have been brought forward.
What I envision the problem being is a natural problem of the times PERHAPS being encouraged or even capitalized upon.

Well, of course you're right, Wraoth. People just don't want to face it. It's crammed down our throats all day long everywhere. America is materialism at it's finest and we seem to want to spread it around.

If you don't have 2 or 3 BMW's, a few digital TV's, a great stereo with surround sound that blasts satellite talk radio, and you're aren't in debt up to your eyeballs, you're not American. We are a nation of debt.

But worse than the materialism that brings on the debt, we are bankrupt in the heart. It's evident right here, in this website.

I don't feel too much like apologizing for saying it either, so pardon me while I go take a shower in my new double-sized, marble shower that I purchased with my Visa card.



Just kidding about the shower of course...I'm material poor, but heart healthy.

reply to post by idle_rocker


I agree,

Materialism is the staple of our nations economy, consumerism is the way to make it sound nice, even patriotic, been a good American is to be able to support our economy and when we are a Nation of non productive means the only way of support is through spending.

But this not the fault of none religious or religious people, either has to do with the grades of individual spirituality (even when morals comes into the picture as some point) and is not promoted or exploited by Atheist, this a socioeconomic issue, that is ingrain it into our minds by the media supported by corporate America and the government.

Yes is people that take it to the extreme and becomes a moral issue, but we as humans have been endowed with free choices, the choices we make are the choices that will affect all in the personal arena and as the housing bubble shows to the nation and most of the its citizens.

Materialism/consumerism is promoted by our government,

A good example is the give away stimulus checks this nothing more than to lure citizens into spending.

Is patriotic and American to spend, to support our nation and the economy so we have been programed to be nothing more than Materialistic people.

Many forget that is another issue link with materialism that is envy.

What I call religion may be a bit confusing. Maybe I should call it ‘weligion’.

I think it is a bigger spicture al together. Once control is applied the subject will spiral towards extremism. To be controlled is to be swept into a sort of weligion. (Our country is the best country in the world, our freedom, our race, our god, our trademark, our money our etc etc and our whatever whatever. )

There is no other way to control people then to indoctrinate them with some sort of weory. Such a ‘weligion’ will spiral towards extremism one way ánd the other. Were there to be a society without radicals, it couldn’t be controlled without pushing the Utopians towards the hypothetical black hole spinning of radicals when it goes.

The more force one applies the more radicals spin out of the dragging movement of the mass. This gives an observer some kind of tool to measure the force applied upon a selected group to study.

Select a small mass knowing there’s a formidable amount of force being applied on to or apply it yourself. Count the radicals spinning out of this cluster. There you can determine the number of radicals per million (rpm) for a totalitarian weligion in order to roughly calibrate the bigger picture by.

It doesn’t matter if there’s a higher power involved or if there are independent individuals capable of withstanding the winds of popular opinion. It’s the sheer mass of a group from which measurements can be taken of.

A mass, I think, should comply a number of natural laws and those tenth to overrule any manmade baseline once a certain threshold is overcome. The baseline will be simply put aside or interpreted towards the need of revolting the mass (from the outside in or from inside out.) Revolting is by no means stopping the mass from spiralling towards the black hole. It might just start spinning down the other way around.

Anyways I think that the rpm of a collective is a variable that holds the key to somewhat predicting the dynamic near future of its mass. Atheism, I think, is a spin-off from a dragging mass trying to revolt against a weligion, not some kind of new one being pushed into existence. It’s hard to tell though. The whole thing started eons ago and early spin-offs have become autonomous spirals. Were looking at an ever expanding humaverse and its history isn’t well documented from an objective point of view. We are stuck with collared reports from independent spirals that emerged and became the main stream media throughout the ages.

Even though, I don’t think it’s easier to control a Humaverse that just became bigger because of it being controlled. I think it’s beginning to twirl into chaos, ready to spit all its build up excessive energy out. The Humaverses rpm I feel, is way of scale to not pacing towards a catastrophic wevent.

I think (playing some fun speculation games as I go.)
pushing the lot is beginning to backfire severely.

Thanks Marg, we agree!

Materialism and consumerism go hand in hand. When I was a kid, we lived in a post WWII 2-bedroom house with one bathroom. All the new homes I see built these days are at least 4 bedrooms and two or more baths. Who needs all that room? Frankly, I don't want to clean all that space, but this is the issue that first caused the real estate bubble. People wanted more room to put more stuff. And when they couldn't afford it, bankers came up with convenient and creative ways to get folks in those homes they "wanted", not needed.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame just the bankers...consumers and bankers are equally responsible for the burst of the bubble. It will be very difficult for quite some time now for a normal American worker to buy a home with all this credit going bad. Banks have tightened the rules smack down hard now. You'll need to have quite a bit of money to buy a home until things settle down, or the rules will have to get very lenient again, which caused the problem in the first place.

We are overcome with the wants.

reply to post by D.Wolf

Anyways I think that the rpm of a collective is a variable that holds the key to somewhat predicting the dynamic near future of its mass. Atheism, I think, is a spin-off from a dragging mass trying to revolt against a weligion, not some kind of new one being pushed into existence. It’s hard to tell though. The whole thing started eons ago and early spin-offs have become autonomous spirals. Were looking at an ever expanding humaverse and its history isn’t well documented from an objective point of view. We are stuck with collared reports from independent spirals that emerged and became the main stream media throughout the ages.

Even though, I don’t think it’s easier to control a Humaverse that just became bigger because of it being controlled. I think it’s beginning to twirl into chaos, ready to spit all its build up excessive energy out. The Humaverses rpm I feel, is way of scale to not pacing towards a catastrophic wevent.

OOh, I like that. The "weople" is a much better way to say it than sheeple. Very nicely said. You get s star.


[edit on 4/12/08 by idle_rocker]

reply to post by idle_rocker


I agree also, I came from a family of 6 with only two bedrooms and one bathroom with a out house, by the time I was 9 we moved into our first real house with a bathroom, hot water and a toilet!!!!!!!!.

You are right banks are not the only ones to blame, we as a society has allowed this to happen, but is after all been encourage by our own government.

You are right also we all want things because we are told that is better even if we are up to our necks on debt.

We are a nation that depends of borrowing to support debt, even our national debt.

But like I said in the last part of my last post, we have envy ugly face affecting our personal choices in one way or another.

BTW I like your views on the economic factors, you should post more on the braking news forum that deals with economic, social and government issues.

reply to post by D.Wolf


You are right on the out control issue, our nation is out of control alright and even when our own government is trying very hard to keep it as an isolated event is heading to chaos.

When people find themselves with not means to support spending addiction a revolt.