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The push towards materialism

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posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:16 AM
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I messeded up.
Please go back and read page one.
Sorry.


[edit on 10-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]




posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Ash,
I understand your take on organised religion.
It has been used as a social tool to control people for millenia. (Not just Christianity or Islam).

Hindu's, (amongst other religions), in India have believed in reincarnation for centuries.
This makes it very easy for religious leaders to say "if you live a good life and do as you are told you will come back to a better life".
People have believed this and subsequently are more prone to accept the abject poverty that they are / were living in in their here and now.
They have something to believe in after they die.

As consumerism and hence materialism has grown people have developed a liking for the here and now.
Both spiritual and religious requirements have declined.
People's need to believe in a better afterlife has diminished.

Has it been for the best?
I don't know, that's for the individual to decide for themself.

Hope this makes sense.


RnR.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


I completely agree with everything you just said. Religion does control and it could completely be done away with to make me a very happy camper. I'm not a 'religious Christian' but I am a 'spiritual Christian.' And that is actually the movement Jesus started but Constantine hijacked to organize. It certainly seems that religions have been used as a tool of control and that is very sad.

I also agree with you that people are more concerned with the here and now- even many secular Christians. My last paragraph was mainly just me throwing something else into the works. Only wild-eyed speculation tossed in as food for thought.


[edit on 4/10/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Yeah Ash I saw that.

Being Agnostic I can not help but have a belief in the here and now.
It's all that I KNOW that exists.

Nobody can either prove or disprove "Gods" existence to me so the question of an afterlife is a complete irrelevance to me.

That is not say that I am ignorant of people's spiritual requirements or that I am uninterested in religious or spiritual matters.
Obviously I have more than a passing interest and liking for reasoned and polite discussion on the subjects or I wouldn't post as often as I do in these type of threads.

But ultimately it is completely irrelevant to me.
Life is not a dress rehearsal, you get one chance and one chance only and I refuse to waste too much time or beat myself up over a set of unprovable thoughts and ideas.

Has that made me more materialistic?
I don't think so.
I am more materialistic than some but less than most.

Am I more hedonistic?
Probably.

However, I try my best to remain true to a set of values and morals that I set myself and I try not to cause anyone else unnecessary harm.
Obviously, I frequently fail as I am only human.
But I refuse to apologise or beat myself up for being human.
Pretty simplistic I know, but it is what it is and I am what I am.

Hope this too makes sense.



[edit on 10/4/08 by Freeborn]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


It is in one of the later old testament prophets.
Something like, "A time will come when the people wil no longer say,'The Temple, the Temple' but God will be found, spiritually, in the hearts of individuals."
Jesus predicted the overthrow of the temple and he fortold the sending of the Holy Spirit.
Thr kingdom of God is in us, according to the explaination that Jesus gave us to look forward to.
What we did get, as a substitute, to those who will accept it is this tremendous power for evil in the world, Empire, Put up multiple little temples all over the world to take the place of the great Temple that Jesus ubderstood had to fall.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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I'm probably going to recant parts of what has already been said, but then again, the whole of an argument can be greater than the sum of its parts, right?


I see the push toward materialism as a way to control the masses, not so much as from religion, but from business and industry (more on the religion in a moment). People seem to be very susceptible to addiction, whether that addiction is a hard drug, marijuana, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, electricity, or even a TV show. We tend to favor what is familiar in our life and rarely go after something entirely new. This is even applicable to those who are constantly trying new things; the addiction is then toward excitement (adrenaline).

Take away the thing we have become accustomed to/dependent on, and we become angry, depressed, lost. This tendency is being put to good advantage by those who benefit from supplying these things. I am sure the local electric companies are thrilled every time a new electric appliance is introduced, as it strengthens their stranglehold on the people who buy electricity. Human greed is at the heart of this, and it, unfortunately, appears to be one of the constants in our universe, as unbreakable as the law of gravity.

As for modern organized religion, it has been mentioned that it is a control device; this is true. But it does appear that materialism as defined by the OP is being used more by religion as time goes on. I personally fail to understand how any true religious belief cannot deny materialism, since religion itself, by its very charter, is concerned with what comes after. Still, I have noticed a growing propensity of organized churches calling on their congregations for more and more of the things of this life. Perhaps this could be attributed to a subconscious realization of the tactics used by business and industry to garner more power and profit, or perhaps it is purposeful and planned. Only the Pope knows for sure.

I do know this much: happiness cannot be bought or read in a book. Happiness, that intangible thing which we all seek, is only available through oneself. It does not come with a power cord, nor does it come pre-packaged at WalMart. One cannot learn it from a science book, or a seminar, or even from listening to a sermon. It exists within, and will only be found when one forgets for a brief moment those things they think they need.

All you really need, you already have. Great thread!

TheRedneck



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant
I have noticed a large push towards materialism/atheism in what I see as an attempt to stamp out spiritualism.

What! Where's the proof? I mean just because we're all told to buy a bigger house, get a second mortgage to pay for the boat doesn't mean anything. You can't afford the boat too? Well then we'll artificially inflate the prices of houses and then drop the interest rates so you payments will be lower. Then with your new found "equity" you can get yet another loan and buy that boat/car/vacation that you've always dreamed of.
[/sarcasm]

Seriously, isn't that what this mortgage "crisis" is all about? People were duped into believing that they needed a $300,000 house even though they only made $30,000 a year. Then everyone maxed out their credit cards, took out home equity loans, paid off their cards and maxed them out again. All in the name of materialism. You can't drive around in a car that's over 3 years old. People will talk.

As far as how this effects spiritualism, I suspect if you're too worried or stressed about making that next payment, you're more likely to get a second job or work extra on weekends which leaves less time for you to go to church or a Bible study. You'll be working from sunup to sundown to make ends meet and hopefully too tired to meditate or pray at the end of the day.

It's almost as if the government wants you to be financially tied down and stressed. Schools will make kids go to sex-ed for 6 weeks, but learning how to balance a checkbook or calculate what car and house you can afford is optional. Pffft! Why would our children need to know how to invest and save money? Don't even get me started on this one. All I see are commercials on television about centers for helping kids play in a safe environment. Keeping teens off the street n' stuff. You never hear about some great program where then taught kids how to make wise investments or save money.

Speaking of sex-ed, do you think that sex-ed involves a discussion on how being a single mom will make you ghetto poor. That's right kids. The best reason to wait for sex is so you don't have to hold down 3 jobs to pay for childcare and rent. Of course the main focus is on STDs and AIDS with little said about the social and monetary lifestyle consequences that come from these behaviors.

Obviously, the answer is that spiritualism requires accountability and ethics. These things are a downer to the shopping high that people love to feel. Is it that making wise money choices is tied to spiritualism? By that I mean that since you believe you're accountable for your actions via, God, reincarnation, or karma, you would choose to spend wisely. Materialism is sort of a replacement religion actually. It substitutes selflessness, for selfishness. It is nearly an anti-religion.

A conspiracy? I don't know. Maybe people are just wired to be selfish and only spiritualism focuses their thoughts outward. I can see however that this could be used as some sort of mass control device although it looks as if it might be collapsing at the moment.

reply to post by TheRedneck
 

Exactly! Perhaps the trend is to introduce materialism inside of the churches and religious institutions to lessen their focus on their spiritualism. Possibly for control of said religious followers.



[edit on 10-4-2008 by dbates]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by dbates
 


Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spirituality or lost of it, has nothing to do with materialism, actually we live in a nation that his sole means to support its economy is through consumerism.

It is in our everyday lives.

I agree that materialism is been pushed in our nation, But it has nothing to do with religion.

Is nothing more that an economic and social issue.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 01:01 PM
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Maybe I am missing something but I was under the impression that the reference to 'materialism' in the original post was not the preoccupation with labels, status, or possessions but the second definition of materialism:


The philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.

dictionary.reference.com...


In other words, it would be 'irrational' to believe in a creator because obviously we all are here due to a big bang and process of evolution. There is no such thing as a spiritual realm, this dimension is all that exists, what you see is what you get, etc. That form of materialism.

But it seems some are using the other definition of materialism:


preoccupation with or emphasis on material objects, comforts, and considerations, with a disinterest in or rejection of spiritual, intellectual, or cultural values.

dictionary.reference.com...


In other words, it's not just about Madonna's song. We're not material girls living in a material world. It is about this 'material realm' being 'it.'


It seems what Wraith is trying to say is whether or not material philosophies are replacing spiritual philosophies, although I definitely see how the second definition of materialism would come into play. If we do believe this material realm is all there is, then we would most certainly place our emphasis and success on material goals. Therefore, both definitions of materialism replace spiritual concepts and goals. Both appear to be happening, IMO.

[edit on 4/10/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 

Yeah, I was thinking of it as the latter definition where someone's focus was on getting more and more. They do sort of go hand in hand. "He who dies with the most toys wins" right? You would win because you've achieved the ultimate victory since there's nothing good or bad happening to you after you die. I guess people are materialistic becuase they are materialistic. (ha!) It works both ways. If you can get a spiritualist to focus on posessions they would tend to gravitate towards this being all that there is. I don't know if you can split the two definitions apart. It's like gravy and mashed potatoes.

Hmm, it much be lunch time because all the analogies that come to mind are food.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by WraothAscendant
 


i don't think you got what i was saying (i should have been more clear)

people could be intimated with the threat of damnation. if you do ______ you'll go to hell
if you do _____ we'll kill you and the act will also make sure you end up in hell

etc.

certain things can be labeled as sin as a form of control.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 05:43 PM
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I remember a video that covers exactly what you guys are talking about. I need to dig up that video, and remember the name first hEh. I will post the youtube link when find it.



reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Oh I know. I even sorta cover that HERE

But yea. Such crap has always set my teeth on edge.
Little more than attempts to hold ones soul hostage. But that doesn't encompass all spiritual belief and what their JC was saying minus the obvious added control crap seems rather good and in line with what others have said.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 06:32 PM
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What is your definition of "materialism"?

A push to "materialism"?
We are "material" aren't we?
Should we make the most of it?
Or do you propose that we sit around contemplating our navels hoping for "nirvana"?

Humanism?
What else could we be?

What exactly is this condition called "spiritual"?

And Athiests are to blame?
How do you define Atheist?
Who are they?
What exactly are they to blame for?

I see a lot of empty rhetoric on this thread.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft


Second, governments cannot stand people of faith (any faith). Materialists are fairly easy to control. Like training a lab rat--the subject always moves toward pleasure, moves away from pain.

But a believer isn't like that. A person who is other-directed will sometimes do painful things in the name of good, or forego pleasure in the name of what is right.

Lots of people will demonstrate in the streets, until you crack down on them. But for a leader like John Brown or Gandhi or MLK, that almost always takes some kind of moral/religious conviction.

I help out at a homeless shelter. Not many atheists volunteering at the shelter where I donate my time. They must all be at the next one down the street.



You hit it right on the head my friend, and I will take that a step further saying that you see the same thing in our military. Yes there are Atheists in the military but there is such a distinct difference in the Christians brand of patriotism being God and Country, Faith and Honor. It is the kind of thing many Christians have been manipulated taking by leaders in power seeing them as a easy resource of ready and willing people that will fight to the death if given a cause worthy of their religious convictions.

Atheists, say we have invented religion because we are afraid of death.
Everyone should be afraid of death and anyone who isn't either is suicidal or believes Death is only a process as birth. Then there are Christians who believe we are ALL of the highest importance to the one who created us and that even if one of us gets lost like a sheep, he leaves the flock to find the one lost. You see that belief in many of our military mantras where we don't leave anyone behind, and if it risks the lives of ten to save the one, we take the risk to save the one.

One of the most vocal Atheists on these boards said recently that he wished that all religions was gone, and that he would like it if the whole world was one government. I don't think he realized just how telling that comment was to me. While most Christians are for the right to own a Gun and typical red white and blue rhetoric, family values, volunteerism etc. When it came to charitable contributions, I asked this Atheist if they were involved in any "group" efforts where the combined efforts of resources could be used for the benefit of mankind, the poor and the hungry .

He gave Bill Gates as the name to represent Atheism.

I don't think I have to explain how utterly out of touch with rational reasonable thinking that answer was. It also explains quite clearly that in the last days the Church is to give up on evangelism as it is not their job to try to gather the generation of the lost or Generation Atheist. That any souls that are out there will be led to God by Christians in the trenches outside of the Church. That in those days the Science of man will be the religion, sexual deviance living for pleasure and acting with arrogance while looking foolish to the believer.

Believers, it is said, in the last days, will not win this final battle, and we will have many false Christians as leaders. I see it in Bush when he makes fun of the religious. but it doesn't stop him from taking our money and our tendency to be loyal to those we think to believe the Bible enough to do what is right. He seems to hate everyone though. It speaks of the language and how it becomes more difficult to see the truth, and here we see more Iconic articles of history being called into question to whether theses events and people ever happened or even existed.

I have believed the Bible for a very long time but at no time in my life has it made more sense, then it has in the last 8-9 years.
These people will dismantle the defenders of Israel from within without any military force, I also have heard Atheists say they will extinguish religion without a drop of blood.

Two things that have me extremely worried is the relationship between Pastor John Haggee and George W. Bush.

I could not believe my ears when I saw a recent report by Keith Olberman when Bush was caught on tape giving his true thoughts and beliefs about Chistians and those alleged faith based initiatives he has yet to send a single dime for anyone of them. Then John Haggee saying Jesus did not come as the Messiah. In Christianity, saying something like that this late in the game tell me only one thing.




-"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism, until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism." -Nikita Khrushchev


The spiritual battle is on, and although I am convinced materialist will win this battle as it says in the Bible,,

They lose the war.

- Con



[edit on 10-4-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant

But yea. Such crap has always set my teeth on edge.
Little more than attempts to hold ones soul hostage. But that doesn't encompass all spiritual belief and what their JC was saying minus the obvious added control crap seems rather good and in line with what others have said.


Oh yes,, and I think your being a pagan is the exact reason you recognise the language of legion when you see it and better then anyone I have seen on these boards.

We tend to give ourselves credit for such cleverness and for the intelligence we think it takes to recognise it and exploit it but it is neither.

It's like a gift one has naturally like someone who has a genetic advantage physically. The mesomorph is strong like that and has that gift where anyone else that desires to accomplish what the mesomorph soma type can do, must work much harder to get there but they CAN get there.

Which is how spiritual exercise works.

That may not make any sense,

somehow I think it will to you

- Con



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by OhZone
What is your definition of "materialism"?

A push to "materialism"?
We are "material" aren't we?
Should we make the most of it?
Or do you propose that we sit around contemplating our navels hoping for "nirvana"?

Humanism?
What else could we be?

What exactly is this condition called "spiritual"?

And Athiests are to blame?
How do you define Atheist?
Who are they?
What exactly are they to blame for?





I see a lot of empty rhetoric on this thread.


For a second there, you had me, seeing all those question marks after every single line. Then your last comment, and realised, you are just being antagonistic, that you already have answers to your disingenuous questions and that is all a lot of empty rhetoric.

Thanks for the heads up, it saves time explaining things to people that already have their minds made up.

In addition, don't want to be bothered,

with the facts.

- Con



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 08:07 PM
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Me think ‘religions’ rages war and ‘religious people’ will blindly or at least more easily follow the path to Kingdome come ‘knowing’ it is for the higher cause so there’ll be a big reward like seven maiden trips with the Titanic or something king of the world type thingie whence accidentally tripping into the path of a stray bullet or something evenly stupid whilst fighting for ‘The Big Truth’.

One who’s praying, eating, talking, living fighting alongside brothers with the same ideas/faiths will gain status inside his crowd. This constantly polarising collective could gain momentum all by itself or by a number of events (like attracting an opposite polarising collective.) spiral more and more towards the black hole of extremism. I see no difference between a belief or a nonbelief. Once a ‘belief’ becomes extremish, tribes are willing to die for it.

Blindly following the path of brothers. Yelling what is being yelled, wildly attacking anything out of the way of what’s programmed by whatever the ‘religions’ propagates. Being a being of christ, mohammed, political candidate, sport club, patriotism or materialism. No matter what collective you choose, it will bear the seeds of extremism in it.

I don’t think it matters if spiritualism is woven into worship or not. It’s just a question of being or being not fundamental at it.

Thus the query becomes: Wouldn't it be easy to control a population that did not include radicals?



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 08:11 PM
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Yep you are correct. it's worse than ever. I live in LA and the obsession with owning random useless crap is bigger here than anywhere else that I can think of. whats sad is that these people buying indemnifying BS think that just because they have run up their credit and bought a 7 series bmw that they are middle class...man what delusional thinking!!!!!

check out my car bro!!! never mind I have no furniture and my credit debt is 60,000 dollars!!! yeah have fun when your 50, you've run your trust fund dry through over spending and you have no skills to actually manage your money which your running out of faster than you can produce. I feel sorry for the kids who are going to inherit these shmoes debt because they thought they needed a fancy (fill in the blank) whatever and HAVE NO POSITIVE CASH FLOW IN THEIR LATER YEARS. do to their stupidity, insecurity and pathetic understanding of money. materialism is retarded.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant
BUT!
That brings another layer to my idea.
What if lets say the catholic church was in on the plans for a NWO and was seeking to widen the gulfs that fox talks about?
Throw in a dash of pushing for intolerance to make the people all the more sicker of that big bad thing "religion".

I mean places like the Vatican and mega church leaders are damn rich.

Not saying I believe all this again. But it fits kinda.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]



A lot of people have wondered that, I have also wondered why Bush would play the typical dufus dumb Christian yet play political chess games in the house and senate have the lowest number of vetos of any president.

It like he just gets his way without any resistance when I think he should have been led out in handcuffs by now.

Seeing that Keith Olberman video really made me get angry. The number of gay republicans in Government in California also ticked me off. We are electing people who just aren't giving lies to get elected but living double lives married to woman on payroll as hired wives just for appearances.

Democrats running as Republicans to thwart their agenda and vice versa. We have caught Hillary twice in BIG LIES and twice using plants in audience debates to ask softball questions she had rehearsed answers for.

We have a democratic party swept in to stop the mess this so called lame duck president is doing but the moment they get in, they are silent as a church mouse. It is aggravating to say the least.

I mean it's a mess

- Con



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by D.Wolf


Thus the query becomes: Wouldn't it be easy to control a population that did not include radicals?


Well I can't deny you have made some compelling points and as for the radicals,, hehe

umm Ya think!

lol

- Con



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