Life on mars this is it! no doubt!

Originally posted by MrPenny
Why do they only appear at the very crest of a dune? Admittedly, a relatively short lived geological feature. The colorized images posted make it much clearer....something running down the side of a dune.

This is one of the things I'm having a problem understanding. I'm glad you are participating in this thread MrPenny, because you seem to have a good grasp on these things, and your analysis is always rational and persuasive.

They do always seem to appear at the very crest of a dune.
That to me is very strange, both for the 'tree' theory, and for the 'geyser' theory.

The colorized images in my viewing still seem to be showing a 3-D object, however, for the sake of argument, lets say that perhaps these are pictures of sand with water stains running down the sides...

How did the water escape at the top of a sand dune? Where is the water coming from? What is the ejection mechanism? Where does the water go?

I really am trying to understand this explanation, however it's very difficult for me to rationalize a water geyser exploding out of a desert. It's also difficult for me to rationalize the way several of these 'geysers' are all erupting at once. I'm also having a hard time understanding why the water doesn't all gather into a larger aquifer and eject in a manner we've observed on other planetary bodies. Enceleadus is a good example, as are water jets on Earth.

Also, the fact that the 'objects/stains/geysers/trees' only appear seasonally does not necessarily preclude any of these explanations from being correct. All of these phenomenon would be expected to portray seasonal variance (especially in an environment like mars, where temperature varies considerably)

Originally posted by MrPenny
Shadows are out of the question....they are running the wrong direction.

I would agree if your interpretation of the image places the highest height value at the peak of the dune. To my eye this is not the case. In fact, the peak of the dune seems obscured, and the darkest part of the 'object' in question is at the lower right portion of the object. This is what I'm calling 'shadow', as it would appear from the albedo (brightness) to be darker than the portion of the object that appears 3-dimensional.

Perhaps that explains what I'm seeing in a better way?

A side view shot of this area would settle this question in my view...
I'm guessing the rovers aren't near this location, but perhaps there is another way to find the answer. If we can find further imagery from MGS with the Sun at a different angle, we could compare/contrast the images to determine what is shadow and what is not...

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this MrPenny, perhaps I'm just not grasping what appears in these images correctly?

-WFA

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
reply to post by IAttackPeople

 

You are correct. The only way it can be a shadow is if there was another source of light nearby from another direction( e.g car headlights ). Which would be very unlikely lol.

[edit on 8-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]

That's not entirely true. If there is a 3-Dimensional object shown in the pictures, the sun would put the shadow to the lower right. Check out the zoomed out image, put the entire region into perspective. A pattern develops.

If there were another light source (car headlights is a bit on the 'I'm going to try to prove you silly by overstating the example' side, but for the sake of argument, let's use it) you would expect to see two shadows from a 3-d object, one from the sun, and one from the secondary light source.

Try this at home in a dark room with two lights of different power output.

-WFA

Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar

That's not entirely true. If there is a 3-Dimensional object shown in the pictures, the sun would put the shadow to the lower right. Check out the zoomed out image, put the entire region into perspective. A pattern develops.

If there were another light source (car headlights is a bit on the 'I'm going to try to prove you silly by overstating the example' side, but for the sake of argument, let's use it) you would expect to see two shadows from a 3-d object, one from the sun, and one from the secondary light source.

Try this at home in a dark room with two lights of different power output.

-WFA

Sorry, but what are you talking about? I was replying to a post, assuming they were talking about the black thing in the "top" part, being a shadow. Which would not be possible, because the light is coming from the left, so the shadow should be on the right not on the top, like you are also saying.

I'm really confused now. I think you might have mistaken what I was trying to say. Here is what I was replying to.

Originally posted by IAttackPeople

Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar

If you actually want to examine the evidence, what I see in this image is a 3-dimensional object casting a shadow.

But the "shadow" should be going towards the right as the light is coming in from the left of frame.

[edit on 8-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]

You're right Phoenix, I think we were both confused. My apologies. I believe we are talking about the same thing.

The discrepancy earlier (due to my inability to post a picture to imageshack at this sucky computer today ) was 'which part of the object is the "shadow"?'

I was saying that I saw shadow on the bottom right of the object, because it's the darkest part of the 'object/stain/tree/whatever-it-is'. And I think that IAttackPeople was saying it couldn't be a shadow (refering to the part I thought/think might be a 3-D structure).

I thought you were agreeing with IAttackPeople's debunking of the shadow theory, without understanding that I was refering to the bottom right portion of the image.

I should have stopped posting until I got home to my computer where I could post images. I'll do that now

Sorry for the confusion.

-WFA

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


Yes it appears we were talking about the same thing. The shadow must be in the lower right. Because it's the law of light.

I simply got confused and thought someone was saying that the black thing on top was a shadow. Which would not seem right. Because the shadow should be on the lower right.

Here's a quick silly edit I made on the picture, that will hopefully make things clearer lol.
s253.photobucket.com...

[edit on 8-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by rocksarerocks
This is LIVE on mars?

I don't understand how anyone can post such a blantant lie and not even get the spelling correct. When you have absolute proof of something, use your spell checker, then post it.

Welcome to the daily "there is life on mars with no proof" thread. Gold star for you.

[edit on 8-4-2008 by rocksarerocks]

Just wanted to remind you that the OP mentioned that english/american is not his native language. Why can't you give him a break about his language skills? And in this forum, we should actually thank the OP for bringing this images to our attention, so they can be discussed in a sivil and intelligent way. A such discussion can hopefully make us all a little wiser and a little less ignorant.

Best regards, Ziggystar60

Originally posted by ziggystar60


Just wanted to remind you that the OP mentioned that english/american is not his native language. Why can't you give him a break about his language skills? And in this forum, we should actually thank the OP for bringing this images to our attention, so they can be discussed in a sivil and intelligent way. A such discussion can hopefully make us all a little wiser and a little less ignorant.

Best regards, Ziggystar60

It's civil not sivil.

Just kidding! lol. Your right, people need to be more polite and friendly.

As far as I can see, the 'tree' is a depression in shadow.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Originally posted by ziggystar60


Just wanted to remind you that the OP mentioned that english/american is not his native language. Why can't you give him a break about his language skills? And in this forum, we should actually thank the OP for bringing this images to our attention, so they can be discussed in a sivil and intelligent way. A such discussion can hopefully make us all a little wiser and a little less ignorant.

Best regards, Ziggystar60

It's civil not sivil.

Just kidding! lol. Your right, people need to be more polite and friendly.

Sorry that I mixed up the words. English is not my native language either.

Best regards, Ziggystar60

[edit on 8-4-2008 by ziggystar60]

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
s253.photobucket.com...¤t=Sillypicture.jpg

Thanks for doing that Phoenix, that's almost exactly what I would have drawn. Except that it appears to me that the part you have in Red and the part in Blue are both the 3-d object, the red part looks like the top of a tropical plant.

Now before everyone says 'that's nuts!' let me re-itterate that I have no idea what we're looking at in this image. I'm just trying to figure it out, like everyone else

If I understand the other argument correctly, every part of the photo is a stain, or in the third theory, the red and blue parts are 'geyser erupting'...

Thanks for posting that image, I was going nuts not being able to do it
I'm about to leave work now, but I'll check back into the thread when I get home tonight

-WFA

Edited to take out an un-needed 'the'


[edit on 8-4-2008 by WitnessFromAfar]

Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar
How did the water escape at the top of a sand dune? Where is the water coming from? What is the ejection mechanism? Where does the water go? [SNIP] I really am trying to understand this explanation, however it's very difficult for me to rationalize a water geyser exploding out of a desert.

Purely hypothetical here.....I don't think water is necessarily "geysering" from the dunes....how 'bout this?

The Martian night gets very cold and moisture in the soil, or sand, whatever the material is, freezes. As the sun rises and strikes the top of the dunes....some quick melting occurs, causing moisture to flow down and stain the material on the low side?

Yeah, I know....there may be some flaws in the idea.....but this is how things are "figured out". By throwing out ideas and considering others.

reply to post by ziggystar60


Of course, I was just joking . It's funny how people act like english is the only language people speak in the world.

Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar

Thanks for doing that Phoenix, that's almost exactly what I would have drawn. Except that it appears to me that the part you have in Red and the part in Blue are both the 3-d object, the red part looks like the top of a tropical plant.

That's what it appears to look like. If we were to guess. It really does look like a plant. It looks like a short palm tree or something lol. They really need to design a better quality telescope and camera for this job.

Here I coloured it in to show what I can see as a sort of plant. Of course before someone calls me crazy. I am only showing a "possibility"
It could be anything.

Here: s253.photobucket.com...

I coloured the leaves in green. But this is mars, things are different there. The leaves could be black, that might explain the darkness?

Anyway, have fun.

Goodnight, it's late here. bye.

[edit on 8-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by johndoeknows


Hi, johndoeknows, welcome to ATS.

Could you please indentify the original image?

As you talk about IAS Viewer and colour images I suppose this is from HiRISE, right?

Purely a theory here and as such please take it with a pinch of salt, I'm just tossing in an idea based on what I see as a layman, with no qualifications in this area at all... also, my ability with paint is terrible...




The, straightish lines that run along are to indicate the peak of the dune, these are running roughly north/south as you look at the picture.
The 1st (lower) circle is what I'm labelling the 3d object to be.
The dark patch below that is what I'm labelling Shadow.
The lighter/patchier area above I'm labelling Flow.
The top circled bit, I'm labelling Stain.

So, hypothetically think of the 3d object as an exhaust/exploding plant/defecating animal/water-geyser etc, anything, just something that might emit/expel something...
The shadow - fairly self-explanatory...
The top circled bit, I've labelled Stain, could be water that has frozen, sewage, oil etc.

I'm not saying I believe this, just counting it as a possibility to be debunked or not, basing it on my first impressions of the picture.

Kudos to the OP for bringing this up and making such a great job of getting his point across in a non-native tongue.

Here is an article that gives greater detail in regards to the sand jet/spray theory (read full article). I think what's important to think about is the we are not talking about jets of water, however, jets of CO2 (which takes up 95% of Mars' atmosphere).

According to the new model, CO2 from the atmosphere freezes onto the surface every Martian winter, eventually creating a solid layer about 1 m deep. This CO2 ice is transparent, like glass. When spring comes and the Sun rises again above the horizon, the sunlight passes right through the ice, heating the soil underneath.

The warm soil makes the CO2 ice above it sublimate, or transform directly from a solid to a gas. The gas is at first trapped beneath the ice, but when the pressure builds up enough, it squirts out with hurricane-like speed in metre-wide jets.

~see full article~

I am not trying to debunk anything or anyone and I have no scientific expertise with which to debate. I just thought that it was important to pass on more details about the jets so that this theory can be understood.

Originally posted by MrPenny
...The Martian night gets very cold and moisture in the soil, or sand, whatever the material is, freezes. As the sun rises and strikes the top of the dunes....some quick melting occurs, causing moisture to flow down

MrPenny, thank you not only for a well thought out reply, but for a testable theory. I'm not saying it's right yet, but it's testable. I'll work on it and see what I can come up with.

-WFA

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Here: s253.photobucket.com...¤t=Apossibility.jpg

Phoenix, I agree completely here. We can't say that's what it is for certain, but you've drawn exactly what I was going to.

Now as for color, these images seem to be black and white. In fact, I'm not even sure how you got the colors on your second image... photoshop second layer? I couldn't do it with MS Paint, all additions came out in grayscale.

So as far as color in the image goes, all we can really see is Albedo, or brightness. Thanks for posting that image. I just got home from work and you beat me to it!

-WFA

reply to post by ArMaP


Agreed ArMaP, I'm glad you joined this thread. I saw that you were active in the other major Mars thread, and I was hoping you would have time to check out these pictures.

By finding out what images we're dealing with here, we can ascertain the location of the objects and acquire more images from the same location.


I fully agree with Internos, FSME recommendation for ArMaP for always working towards a solution, and for seeking evidence to deny ignorance.
That's pretty cool.

-WFA

reply to post by jokei


I like your theory, and I'll take it one step further. I think I see more angles in the dune than that. Please let me know if you see these also or if you think they aren't really there. I'm all for independent verification



I count 5 ridglines running off of this particular dune.
I've inverted the colors from the original image, to help clarify the ridges.

So if we're talking about staining from a liquid (thanks for the C02 Clarification Hsur!) it should be running down the dune like it would here on Earth, right?

I'm going to work on a representation of the angles I think we might be seeing here. I'll post it when I've finished. I may well be wrong, but I think it's worth understanding even if the answer here turns out to be mundane

-WFA