Olympic torch parade protests in Paris.

The question is will there are protesters in NYC and everywhere the torch will go in the U.S or will the cowardice be the "standard behaviour" among the citizens in the self proclaimed best democracy in the world. I don't know but we'll find out soon enough.

So far i have seen protests in Greece, London and Paris (I probably have missed a couple).

I agree boycotting these games wouldn't be wise but considering China is the true vector of the economy these days they can't pretend to great considerations from me if they don't solve these human rights problems.
Not that i think we western nations are way better on this very subject but enough better to say they're on the wrong track.

Maybe we should boycott the opening of these games (no broadcast) ...maybe.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


China invaded Tibet for its oil.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Why did we invade Iraq again? Because many people say it was for the oil.

British Soldiers have been found to abuse and torture Iraqi's.
What's the difference?

P.S: While we over pay our Government and people starve in our country, we are no better.

Originally posted by Odium
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

China invaded Tibet for its oil.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Why did we invade Iraq again? Because many people say it was for the oil.

British Soldiers have been found to abuse and torture Iraqi's.
What's the difference? P.S: While we over pay our Government and people starve in our country, we are no better.

Yes and those opposed to the war have and will continue to protest against the war. Those who feel China has wronged in Tibet are voicing their objections one of the only ways they can- by boycotting the Olympics.

And as for the 'we're no better' remark, given the choice I know hands down which country I would live in!

You know I am learning more and more every day about the hypocrisy of the Western World, we all live off of the backs of others with our heads buried in the sand pretending that bad things are not happening and that it is all ok.

Both the UK and USA are grievously guilty of infringing on human rights and committing war crimes, both Tony Blair and George Bush should be on trial. The media barely reports on these atrocities and even if it does it soon forgets about them due to the “Next Big Story” and the people are too complacent and forget to easily what is happening to o anything about it.

Even when people do ask for answers they are fobbed off with BS spin and lies, and are expected to take it down the throat even if they do not believe what is being said. A government should not be able to do this, if the people/media ask for an answer governments should not just be able to give out some blatant lie and then do as they wish. They should be made to stop, give answer until the people are satisfied and those guilty of crimes are punished.

However it just does not happen! I hate my government for what it has done, I have tired using what little power I have to change things, even though I know it will not work, at least when I die and meet my maker I can talk to him with a clear conscious and say I tried. I have voted for other parties in general elections and I have signed protests asking for Tony Blair to be put on trial for war crimes but to no avail.

When democracy does not work, when none of the parties represent your views of the world and all the politicians are in it for them selves, they are in bed with the share holders of large global companies to make them rich richer, when the media does not ask for answers and the general populace has its head buried in the sand pretending nothing bad is happening, I ask this, what can one man do?

In truth I see only one way to rectify this dieing cesspool of a world and that is armed revolution! However I know this will not happen because for that you need the people and the people to busy with hand over ears and eyes shut and care more about how their local sports team is doing rather than caring about how billions of fellow humans are suffering horrors and hardships they could never imagine.

So tell me what can I do in my country, in this “Great United Kingdom”? Would I protest over the Olympic Games being held here? I would if I thought it would do any good but will it? Will it really change anything?

At least with protesting over China there is a small glimmer of hope that maybe something will change. Will that change be for “Good” or “Bad” I do not know! Like you said opening China up is a good thing, it will make it more accessible and maybe open in up for change. On the other hand how can I sit idly by whilst that government continues to commit acts of evil? By protesting you can show a voice and at least make people think twice about what they are doing and what is happening and maybe make them take action as well.

Originally posted by OdiumWhat's the difference?

If you can't see the difference by now, and the gross amount of human rights violations by China against their own people compared to the other countries you would be quick to boycott, then I am sorry but I don't believe anyone here can do a thing to change your mind.

---

On topic:

My support goes with the French on this, as it will with any group of people anywhere that peacefully protest for any cause. I may not agree with what some people say, but I will be extremely proud to defend their right to do so.

And for the record, as a member (not staff), I wholeheartedly support any peaceful effort at this point that would bring any ounce of embarrassment upon the regime that is the Chinese government.

The "poor athletes" ploy is very clever, but I'm sorry to say that the true blame they should be holding is at the Olympic Committee for "passing the torch" to China in hopes of answered promises to human rights concerns. They should have waited for those concerns to be met before deciding to place the Olympics in China.

It is like telling your child that you will get them a toy if they behave at the dentist, and giving them the toy ahead of time. The incentive is gone and the child will do what he pleases. Only this is a far more serious and far more dangerous child.

Tibet is not the only reason to be boycotting the 2008 Olympics and why they should not be going ahead.

The actions of the Chinese Government to build the stadiums and complex is disgusting. The bulldozed thousands of homes and didn’t give the residents new homes, thousands more Chinese are living in worse conditions, sleeping in the streets and rubble, all in the shadows of 5 star hotels and amazing Olympic venues.

In August these homeless Chinese will be moved from that location (their home for generations) and they will be place somewhere else (still homeless), but out of the eye of the viewing public. China likes to hide its dirty little secrets.

It’s disgusting, and anyone who supports the 2008 Olympics should be ashamed, just remember when your watching that opening ceremony that the amazing stadium your looking at caused thousands of people to become homeless, has made their living conditions worse and left them no better off.

Any athlete who competes in the 2008 Olympics is just as bad, how can they compete for a Gold medal inside a place that has caused so many problems for the Chinese people, a government that has and continues to destroy lives and has terrible human rights issues. Do these athletes have no heart?

Tibet is just one of hundreds of reasons why these games should not be allowed.

I will not watch any of the Olympics, nor will I support my country in the games.

Mikey

Originally posted by Odium

You know what...when I see 10 people race, I don't see people being killed because of it.

Maybe it’s because you’re turning a blind eye to what is happening right outside the stadium that the race is being held in.

Mikey

Originally posted by niteboy82
I wholeheartedly support any peaceful effort at this point that would bring any ounce of embarrassment upon the regime that is the Chinese government.

Absolutely! I fully agree with ya' nite!

I understand folks who say the Olympics are supposed to be a peaceful - non political - event. But you guys are really fooling yourselves if you think that politics hasn't been in play with the Olympics (and in the Olympics) for a very long time. (especially figureskating! YIKES!)

Well i suppose we will see what happens in San Fransico, South America, and Australia, as the torch continues, im betting there will be more protests.
I find it even worse China is insistent on running the torch through Tibet.

What is the symbolic meaning of the flame?

This is a great chance to force China to actually do something right for the good of humanity, i only wish we could change the rest of the worlds problems with the human unity shown.





[edit on 7-4-2008 by Denied]

I say you go Paris they know what the meaning of freedom is. I just wished the people in the U.S. did. If we did more protesting maybe we would not be in the shape were in. I recalled somthing a man said on Michael Moores film about the government fearing the people not vice versa, like we do here in the US. Pehaps they will get somthing done about China.

To add here is the route.





With an interactive map here.



[edit on 7-4-2008 by Denied]

[edit on 7-4-2008 by Denied]

I am just happy to see people all around the world, starting to unite to expose the China that really is. Tibet, Dafur, Burma, 08.

The Olympics have been entertwined Sports and Polotics for Over 2 thousand years. From the days on the Greek Peninslsa and Islands, to the Banning in the Roman Republic, modern times in the '80 with USA-USSR, to Hitlers Olymics before WWII... The Olymics is a GLOBAL event, that reflects the Status of the Global comuntiy.

Has anyone thought of what the Athleates are thinking... Countries like Britan, and Australia, tried to have their athleates sign no-critiism contracts, but the atheates didn't sign them.

It should be intresting to see what happens in San Franphyco on Wendsday. Considering what happen today, SF , and the potesters plan to stay on the brigde i belive....

I know i might be in San Fransisco on Wen. It is only like an hour away...

Originally posted by Denied
Well i suppose we will see what happens in San Fransico, South America, and Australia, as the torch continues, im betting there will be more protests.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by Denied]

San Francisco will defiantly protest, as will many of the other countries it still has to pass though.

Down here in Australia I don’t know if you’ll see many protests, for 2 reasons,

1: It’s only going to Canberra, the Capital, which has a population of about 12!

2: Australians are mostly “do-gooders” and would be afraid to offend or upset China, this country usually bends over quiet easy for countries like China.

I’d like to see peaceful protests’ when it comes to Australia, but will have to wait and see if it actually happens, they have shortened the route and increased security.

One Country that the torch is going to where we can guarantee there won’t be any protest or disruption is North Korea.

Mikey

Originally posted by Mikey84

Originally posted by Odium

You know what...when I see 10 people race, I don't see people being killed because of it.

Maybe it’s because you’re turning a blind eye to what is happening right outside the stadium that the race is being held in.

Mikey

Hi...Dalai Lama says not to boycott the protests.

Who are you to say otherwise?

P.S: You don't think, jsut slightly, a little that maybe those in Tibet planned this? They noticed the Olympics and thought: Let's cause issues?

You know violent protests, if I went and did it - I'd be branded a criminal. In the USA, the UK, etcetera. IF I did what they did it's against the law.

reply to post by Knights


Stop buying Chinese products!

That's how you voice dissent against them. You lobby your friends, your family and everyone you know and you make it clear what China does. You want change?

The Olmypic boycott won't bring change, they've earned enough from it already and it makes people look like spoilt children to me. It doesn't harm China in anyway - stopping buying their products would though.

reply to post by niteboy82


It's a numbers game?

Well let's be honest, if you are going to play that card bring up the number of human rights abuses in China based on population as a percentage against the UK and USA. If you can't show anything to validate your point - well...you know what. :-)

As far as I am concerned, you torture one person you torture 200 it's the same thing. Scale doesn't matter the action matters.

Originally posted by Odium
reply to post by niteboy82

 

Well let's be honest, if you are going to play that card bring up the number of human rights abuses in China based on population as a percentage against the UK and USA. If you can't show anything to validate your point - well...you know what. :-)

WHAT! I'm beginning to think you are taking your position just to troll this thread and cause trouble. If you cannot see how free the UK and USA are compared to China then you are simply blind, end of story.

Originally posted by Odium
As far as I am concerned, you torture one person you torture 200 it's the same thing. Scale doesn't matter the action matters.

I agree any torture is wrong and i'm sickened that our government (UK) was complicit in it, however yes a systematic torture apparatus that China has is far worse than the UK's meager delvings into the affair. Yes 200 is worse than one or two, but i agree we shouldn't be torturing people.

I hope more people protest these games and my dear hope is that it's called off completely, maybe then China would realise they cannot truly be a part of the international community, be accepted until they clear up their act. It is not just about tibet, it is about how china treats it's own citizens which mike has bought up very well in this thread.

Not buying chinese made goods is of course a good way to start, however it is very difficult as so many things are now made in china, this laptop i have has some chinese components and sadly i need this laptop. Protesting the games is another way of getting the point across, i think a multi pronged approach is always the best at dealing with an opponent.

Noteworthy to say is that these extremists are quite succesfully in countries where the political leaders seem to have already made a stance against China. Would there be less visible and extreme protests in Paris if the French authorities did not do their job only half-heartedly?

My criticism is on the Western MSM who apparently have made it their job to spread anti-Chinese sentiments.

Olympia- What are the chances that an activist could break the lines and disrupt a speech?
Athens- Well Western reporters had their fun again here.
Beijing - So how much you heard about the Torch relay here?
Almaty - Huh, most likely the editors believe it was a waste to send their reporters to Kazahkstan. The torch relay was spreading friendships and mutual understanding.
Istanbul - Any of you know how to pinpoint Istanbul? Yes the capital of Turkey where the torch relay went by in what it should be, spreading harmony and peace.
St.Petersburg - This was a joyful day and a win for non-Western world people, cultures are brought together, different people see the real spirit of the Olympics in Russia.
London - Hah, the Western MSM at last can show how good they are. Where are the reporting of thousands of pro-China supporters? Where are the reporting of how extreme these activists can go?
Paris - As one would have known, you can never trust the French. But again, did the Western media report that extremists are attacking a amputee kid in wheelchair who was only trying to bring over the spirit of the Olympics?
San Francisco - Hot spot. But don't be surprised to not see the reporting of the over 10,000 Chinese supporters who are going to support the torch relay.
Buenos Aires - "Holiday break for Western reporters! You have done a good job." - *pats by DL himself*
Dar Es Salaam - Western reporters better report something about the supposed toxic in the Chinese goods etc to spread anti-Chinese sentiments.
Muscat - We are sure the Western reporters will be creative enough to report something.
Islamabad - Hey anyone who knows how to pinpoint Islambad on the map? Yes that is in Pakistan.
New Delhi - Ah, the sharpen your pen again, you have some overtime to do.
Bangkok - Hope the spicy cuisine will not burn your lying tongues.
Kuala Lumpur - Oh no, Malaysia, wasn't it one of the countries with a huge ethnic Chinese there?
Jakarta - Hah, maybe the most interesting to report is that the torch relay was again done succesfully and brought harmony and peace to this disaster-victimized country? Neah, that would against these Western reporters' ideology.
Canberra - Yes, activists can come out of their holes again, and Western reporters can prepare for some sleepless nights writing articles.
Nagano - Japan Japan, expect to see some extremists as well, but we have faith in the authorities.
Seoul - The south, our neighbours, our buddies, but also competitors, same as Japan, we do have faith in that you will not only half-heartedly stop extremist using violence to protest.
Pyongyang - Wow, the torch is also visitting this sad poor evil country, bet Western reporters will find a way to report how people are dragged out of the homes etc etc. I am not that creative we will see.
Ho Chi Minh City - Yes another communist country which economy is being reformed with a hugeload of Chinese population. Better skip this.

Then the torch will start in Chinese ground. Bet for a few months the Western reporters will have sadly nothing to tell you.

Put aside your prejudices, and look at that list, was you even aware that the torch already passed three other Nations after Beijing? Are you aware of that the Torch for the first time in World history will be touring around so many different countries with different cultures, norms, values and political ideologies? Never forget what the spirit of Olympics is, which is friendships, harmony and peace.

Activists started abusing the Olympics as a political weapon, Western MSM is jumping board to do what they are good at, Western politicians totally miss the point of this once meaningful Olympic spirits.

As for you guys starting to talk about that China doesn't deserve this or that, let me tell you that China won the vote in a democratic bidding system to host this SPORTING EVENT. en.wikipedia.org...

If Westerners (who voted for someone else) are not honouring your so-called democratic systems by even threathening to boycotts and ABUSE this event as a political weapon, then this is the ultimate proof and evidence that these so-called democratic nations are nothing but hypocrits. This is why so many non-Western nations and people all over the world are having to some extent a certain bad taste when the Western politics topics are being brought up.

China did not promise anything, we do want to use this opportunity to learn from each other and to use this opportunity to open up our mysterious Middle Kingdom to some foreigners to let them see what the real China is. That's it, nothing more. If you are too closed-minded, and can only believe some bias reporting, then simply don't come.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
Put aside your prejudices, and look at that list, was you even aware that the torch already passed three other Nations after Beijing? Are you aware of that the Torch for the first time in World history will be touring around so many different countries with different cultures, norms, values and political ideologies? Never forget what the spirit of Olympics is, which is friendships, harmony and peace.

Yes peace exactly, that is why people are protesting, the chinese government murders, tortures and generally abuses it's own citizens. Not a peaceful thing.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
Activists started abusing the Olympics as a political weapon, Western MSM is jumping board to do what they are good at, Western politicians totally miss the point of this once meaningful Olympic spirits.

The olympics despite what people say have always been a political event, sorry it's just true.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
If Westerners (who voted for someone else) are not honouring your so-called democratic systems by even threathening to boycotts and ABUSE this event as a political weapon, then this is the ultimate proof and evidence that these so-called democratic nations are nothing but hypocrits. This is why so many non-Western nations and people all over the world are having to some extent a certain bad taste when the Western politics topics are being brought up.

The people of those western countries had no vote now did they, therefore they have every right to protest. I never got to vote on the olympics and who gets it so kindly don't tell me i am a hypocrite. The governments will abide by their peoples wishes for the most part, sadly the UK government has no spine and simply smiles, shakes hands and moves along.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
China did not promise anything, we do want to use this opportunity to learn from each other and to use this opportunity to open up our mysterious Middle Kingdom to some foreigners to let them see what the real China is. That's it, nothing more. If you are too closed-minded, and can only believe some bias reporting, then simply don't come.

Ahh i see, fed state propoganda. I don't need the olympics to experience culture, wanting to learn frm each other is fantastic, maybe your government will learn not to abuse it's own citizens, oh wait, no they won't. Not until countries and they're people stand up and protest will China take notice.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
Are you aware of that the Torch for the first time in World history will be touring around so many different countries with different cultures, norms, values and political ideologies?

Em, are you aware that this is NOT the first time! Did you ever hear of the 2004 Athens Olympics? The 2004 torch relay went to around the world and to more countries than the 2008 one is going to.

Please, if you’re going to come out with things like that, please at least do your research.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
Then the torch will start in Chinese ground. Bet for a few months the Western reporters will have sadly nothing to tell you.

Because of the censorship!

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
China did not promise anything

Again, please do your research. The Olympics where given to China on the condition that they clean up their disgusting Human Rights issues amongst other things.


Mikey


[edit on 8/4/2008 by Mikey84]