Battle Against Teaching Evolution in Texas Begins: Should creationism win out, textbooks throughout

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by forestlady

Eeek. I didn't mean Science was outside of Nature. I meant God was outside of Nature and therefore outside of Science.. Sorry, i think i messed up the wording.

Actually that isn't really reflective of my belief...I was trying to speak from 'the other side' I guess. As a Panentheist I believe God is both interconnected with everything in Nature, and is also outside of Nature. So I believe Nature is divine in itself

[edit on 013030p://7u35 by Lucid Lunacy]

Hi LL: Thanks for the response and clarification. THat makes more sense to me now. I am a pantheist as well - also Pagan and an animist. And I agree that Nature is in divine in itself. I have always felt that my church was in the woods or on a beach, etc. I get misty-eyed when I see a beautiful sunset, rainbow or anything that is pretty that is found in Nature.

And yes, sadly, there are those who believe God is outside Nature. Some of them are Christian think that everything was created just for Man, to do with as he pleases, even if it means raping Nature and our natural resources. They don't seem to understand that according to their Christian religion, God made the entire world and everything in it and that it is a sacrilege to destroy what God has created.

reply to post by forestlady


It is also a sacrilege, in my opinion as a Christian and a scientist, to lie about our own history to fit the Church model of creation. We are here, there's nothing pointing to the idea that it was magic, there was a process it followed.

However I will argue that the process IS the magic. To say it isn't happening is to call God a liar. Especially when we have insurmountable evidence.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Howie47

 

A perfect 'creator' would make us much better than we seem to be....what we seem to be, is an organism, much like most other organisms on Earth, susceptible to disease an death.

Your definition of perfect may be different from others, including a Creator. Would perfection be never having to take care of ourselves? To live forever?

Bees can see in the Ultraviolet, by we can't?

Whales and dolphins have good hearing underwater, but ours sucks. Why?

Why do we need to see in ultraviolet? What if that muddied our vision and our current spectrum is the most effective for our daily lives? Our underwater hearing sucks because we don't need to hear well underwater. What benefit would that give us? From what you have said it seems you think perfection is being able to sense everything, which would probably do us more harm than good in the long run. We have enough trouble understanding a paying attention to our current world.

Why do we have to excrete waste in the manner we do? I could of a better way, if I were an all-powerful, all-knowing creator.

Well, I'm going to guess you are not all-knowing now, which means if you were an all-knowing Creator that your opinion or perspective would change. Maybe then you would think waste was a good idea. Who knows man.

Oh and just in case you didn't know, i'm not a creationist.

reply to post by Parabol


My, mistake.

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Howie47]

reply to post by projectvxn


That is called "spin". Evolutionist called the non-coding parts of the DNA, "junk DNA", left over from the evolution process. However now they find that it isn't junk, but serves all kinds of different functions.
ID tends to predict it must have a purpose if it is there. Just like the so called vestigial organs. Which have proved to have hidden function.
Evo, predictions fail continuously.

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Howie47]

reply to post by projectvxn


Very Funny. So we can take your word for that you are a Christian, that
doesn't lie! Thanks, I'll wait and see your fruit. Have you ever heard of wolves in sheep's clothing? How do we know your not one? Why should we listen to your dogma? Why shouldn't we be able to teach both sides of the argument? What are you afraid of??????????? The Truth?
So if the evidence is so insurmountable. Why did R. Dawkins write a book titled, "Climbing Mount Improbable"? Why have top Evo scientist; just called for a meeting to discuss a New Theory of Evolution?


[edit on 12-4-2008 by Howie47]

Originally posted by Howie47
reply to post by projectvxn

 

Very Funny. So we can take your word for that you are a Christian, that
doesn't lie! Thanks, I'll wait and see your fruit. Have you ever heard of wolves in sheep's clothing? How do we know your not one? Why should we listen to your dogma? Why shouldn't we be able to teach both sides of the argument? What are you afraid of??????????? The Truth?
So if the evidence is so insurmountable. Why did R. Dawkins write a book titled, "Climbing Mount Improbable"? Why have top Evo scientist; just called for a meeting to discuss a New Theory of Evolution?


[edit on 12-4-2008 by Howie47]

What just because I'm a Christian I can't believe what I want? How, in turn, would you like me to present the argument? There are facts and then there's made up crap. Just because HUMAN evolution is little understood doesn't mean that the whole theory has to be thrown out. Secondly, if the theory of evolution doesn't satisfy you, then how on Earth will Creationism? It's based on nothing. Why are those two the only alternatives? Why has this debate gone from the mechanics involved to a question of spirituality? This isn't a spiritual debate it's a scientific one. If, as you say, Evolution is complete bunk, the explain to me where creationism gets it's data and by what process is this achieved?

Your accusation of me being some sort of stealth something or other is nothing more than dubious at best. I'm not pushing "the agenda", I'm presenting data in a debate that has been pretty one sided. You're arguing with me on the basis of spirituality and some sort of moral center. I'm trying to present data.

Why don't you do the same?

reply to post by Parabol


Parabol, I appreciate your measured response and I appreciate your taste in music.

While I wasn't directing all of my questions directly at you, it was nice of you to respond politely.

Much of what I wrote was intended for general consideration, and discussion, for the benefit of this thread and its original point....

Even as I sit here, and type, I hve a numbness in my left hand....me, the 'perfect' creation of some imaginary friend, some call 'god'....and this makes it more difficult to type quickly, the way I used to be able to.

A friend sent me a cool pic, go look at it, on my member site....

(hint) I like cats...and dogs....and fish and goats and sheep and cows....but it's just easier to keep a cat or dog as a pet...or a fish, but they're hard work too....guess hamsters are easier?

WW

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Parabol, I appreciate your measured response and I appreciate your taste in music.

Sooo off topic:

I would just like to say that TOOL is a fantastic band and that anyone that likes them is surely close to God



[edit on 033030p://13u27 by Lucid Lunacy]

Here is a possible solution to the problem.

reply to post by pavlovsdog


That comic has some hysterical implications...and by that I mean it was

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Creationist have always welcomed debate. It is the Darwinist, materialist
who shun it. Darwinist want all public forums to belong only to them.
No, creationist allowed! Give equal time on public forums. i.e. public TV.
Schools, News Outlets, and Church's would gladly let you have your Darwin Day. The fact is, most Churches do teach evolution in their Sunday schools. It is on Christian TV all the time. Christians aren't afraid of Darwinist. Darwinist are afraid of Christ!

Darwinists are afraid of christ? I accept evolution.. but why on earth would I be afraid of Jesus? Isn't he meant to be a pacifist? Even if I were christian I would not stop believing that evolution is fact.. I see no contradiction. He preached about being kind etc.. he didn't preach against science.

[edit on 13-4-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley


The only thing I could think that Christ would have said that would ruffle the angel feathers of science, darwinists, evolutionists, is that he believed and spoke of a God. Which has certain implications of course. That said, I agree with you Riley, I don't understand why Christ and Science are mutually exclusive.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Christ, was the greatest scientist that ever lived. It is the truth, that He
brings that evos are afraid of.
When people tell me they are Christians and believe in Darwinism; I
doubt their sincerity. But I guess it is possible. Most people rarely question what they are taught. As long as they are content.

reply to post by Howie47


Howie? Are you really being serious?

Jesus Christ was a 'scientist' ?!?!?

A 'scientist'? Well, guess, at age 33, he was already an established PhD, from the University of Jerusalem, and therefore was a very clever man, a genius, if you will....

Really, get serious....

reply to post by weedwhacker


sci�en�tist

NOUN:

A person having expert knowledge of one or more sciences, especially a natural or physical science.
So you think that a man that can manipulate physical laws and the material world to his whims; doesn't have expert knowledge of the same?
You probably don't believe in Jesus at all.

Originally posted by Howie47
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

sci�en�tist

NOUN:

A person having expert knowledge of one or more sciences, especially a natural or physical science.
So you think that a man that can manipulate physical laws and the material world to his whims; doesn't have expert knowledge of the same?
You probably don't believe in Jesus at all.

Now you're seriously trivializing the fundamental basis of this debate. Now you're making more accusations on someone's faith, or lack thereof. This isn't even part of the debate, and there is a massive amount of people on Earth who can, by the process of scientific tools, manipulate matter and energy to suit their purposes. Technology is cool. And the computer you use was made by all those godless scientists out to destroy mankind. Where, in actuality, the Internet brings the whole world together. Imagine that.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Howie47

 

Howie? Are you really being serious?

Jesus Christ was a 'scientist' ?!?!?

Brings new meaning to the term "Christian Science"!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calling him a scientist is rather demeaning actually. If he truly had a direct connection to God the Creator, then he would by that nature have an understanding that transcends even science. As he would know everything, or at least, access to the knowledge of everything.

That said, he was a carpenter

[edit on 043030p://14u26 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Parabol, I appreciate your measured response and I appreciate your taste in music.

Sooo off topic:

I would just like to say that TOOL is a fantastic band and that anyone that likes them is surely close to God

[edit on 033030p://13u27 by Lucid Lunacy]

I assume you're being sarcastic considering Maynard (Tool's singer) views on religion. See, it is possible to enjoy music for music, or listen to people you don't necessarily agree with. I share a lot of his views on spirituality or reality (my signature quote) but I don't share his feelings about God. I think he is capable of raising good questions though. In the song "Judith" he says "talk to Jesus Christ as if you know the reasons why, He did it all for you" The song is more about the hypocrisy of Christians but I agree that a lot of Christians (and other religions alike) can be that way. I don't blame some anti-religious people for their views on those who practice it because they've done negative things in the past for the sake of their beliefs. Being a Christian doesn't make you any better than a Muslim, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, whatever. I'm tired of people thinking their better because of their beliefs, be proud of what you believe in, but you don't have to transfer that feeling to look down on others.