When Evangelicals come out to vote.

Originally posted by idle_rocker
reply to post by Lilitu

 

And Mosaic law...hence the ten commandments being a basis for jurisprudence. Without it, if still under Roman law, we would still be crucifying each other wholesale.

Edit to Add: There are disagreements about this, but this is not unusual in jurisprudence. as in: www.sodabob.com...

"...the role of the Ten Commandments in the formation of Western law is an historical fact. The Ten Commandments are the "very fountainhead of the common law" (the body of law developed in England and followed in America), according to Herbert W. Titus, founding Dean of the Regent University School of Law and Government. The monument, provocative to some, simply restates that historical fact, he says."
"Law professor John Eidsmoe adds that "Mosaic law has influenced and really been the basis for Western law." Eidsmoe, who teaches law at Faulkner University..."

My bolding. Interesting that these two people, Herbert W. Titus and John Eidsmoe are employed at christian universities. Regent University was founded by none other than Pat Robertson (you can hear what he thinks about genuine academia here. Fulkner says of itself that foundation is "predicated on the conviction that the Bible is the inspired word of God" which is about what you could expect from a "university" which began as a simple bible school. Sorry but you couldn't have chosen two more biased sources for your information. Yes "education" really is the way to take over the country.

You say you don't see dominionism? Open your eyes. They are leading you about by the nose and yet you are blind to it. Both of the universities in the quotes you cited are dominionist.

Originally posted by idle_rocker
By the way, in case you need an American history lesson, Englishmen left Britain to get out from under Church Rule, and worship as they saw fit...not the government's way. That is the basis of the American Constitution. It may have some English law, some Roman law and a few others thrown in the mix, but the founding fathers knew exactly what they wanted...and that was freedom OF religion.

LOL! I need a lesson. Sure religious freedom was one reason but even a casual reading of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence reveals that it was far from being the primary reason.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Humans have searched since our beginning for the meaning of life, the whole why are we here question, these people have the pride to act as if they have found it.

Not to mention the arrogance to attempt to force it upon society at large.

Here is a good question.

We have Islam desiring world domination.
We have Evangelical Christians desiring their ideals being spread far and wide.
We have the ecumenical movement desiring to make everyone 'content.'
We have atheists desiring secular everything.
We have liberals and conservatives at opposite ends of the spectrum desiring their ideals being spread far and wide.

Who will be the winner? I have an opinion but would like to hear anyone else's thoughts on the subject.

________________________________________________________________________________________

And to seriously answer the OP: Yes. Although your OP brought up the more 'radical' side of Evangelical Christianity, there is definitely something going on. The only thing is, I do not see them being successful. Their heads are hitting a brick wall every way they turn for the most part. Evangelical Christianity will always be successful but the pro-war, 6,000 year old earth believing, 'we want your children' evangelical Christians are a dying breed- truly. Their numbers grow less and less as time goes on as the eyes of EC's are being opened to the brainwashing.

More and more EC's are becoming opposed to the war (I used to be for it but am no longer), now believe in an OEC (whereas many of us used to be YEC's), are starting to take offense at pastors who tell us how to vote (whereas before it seemed more acceptable), are no longer rabid fans of Bush (others and myself used to be but then opened our eyes), etc.

The thing is, Christians are getting lazier and lazier (and yes this saddens me). While atheists, Muslims, and liberals seem to be getting more 'devout' and united, Christians don't get out and 'work it' it like they used to. Even support for the types you mentioned in your OP are either being rebuked and ignored or the people who are active enough to support them are now getting lazier.

So, I just don't see it as a serious problem. Christianity's influence is waning- not growing. I'm pretty sure anyone with two eyeballs can see this occurring.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Here is a good question.

We have Islam desiring world domination.

Agreed, the Only reason I haven't brought them up is the lack of personal experience dealing with them.

We have Evangelical Christians desiring their ideals being spread far and wide.

Well you know my opinion on this.

We have the ecumenical movement desiring to make everyone 'content.'

I'm not really familiar with this.

We have atheists desiring secular everything.

Not just atheists, there is a drive to uphold the rules/laws of one particular religion, this leave out many other religions, it is also in the best interests of all the "other" religions for secular everything

We have liberals and conservatives at opposite ends of the spectrum desiring their ideals being spread far and wide.

While most or the majority is moderate, the liberal vs. conservative is the black and white or good vs. evil. There are many other side to all the issues than two.

Who will be the winner? I have an opinion but would like to hear anyone else's thoughts on the subject.

Well personally if they don't stop in their effort for world dominion or domination, there will be no winner, because they will kill us all, all in the name of their God.

As for the rest of your post I'm thinking your seeing where you have been manipulated?

I see it as more widespread than you, but the fact that you are seeing what is occurring even though you think they will be unsuccessful is refreshing and gives me hope.

I have no problem with the individual Christian whatever denomination they believe in, it's the massive group that bothers me use whatever name you would like, the moral majority, religious right, fundamentalist, evangelical they have a set goal, too rule my life, to force Me to conform to their beliefs.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
I see it as more widespread than you, but the fact that you are seeing what is occurring even though you think they will be unsuccessful is refreshing and gives me hope.

Oh ya. We see it and are pretty outspoken about it. Even many Christians on ATS have criticized the 'radical' segment of EC's. If you look around (and even in this thread) you will see many devout Christians even scoff at their tactics.

But again, those are the radical EC's on the fringe. Most of us are more moderate. We really do all have different beliefs on certain things. So, I simply don't see them being successful because they are actually losing the support of more and more Christians- not gaining it.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Here is a good question.

I agree. It is a good question, for another thread.

Originally posted by Lilitu
I agree. It is a good question, for another thread.

My apologies, Lilitu, for bringing in another angle that even included EC's in the question. Didn't mean to interfere with your Christianity bashing fest by looking at the entirety of the situation.

Carry on!

Let me be very frank here.

Moderators will determine when the posters are off topic.

Understood by all?

it is also in the best interests of all the "other" religions for secular everything

That's provided secularists can remain neutral .
Do you see that happening? Frankly, I don't.
Instead I see the more secular we become, the more
shocked secularists are when some people try to
slow or stop the tide of it in certain areas. We have
to live here together, ya know? If this were truly a
country without moral anchor (which is the direction
it's going in), it would self-implode.

[edit on 31-3-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
That's provided secularists can remain neutral .
Do you see that happening? Frankly, I don't.

Honestly, I don't either. As already stated, I do believe in a separation of church and state but have seen secular atheists take it way too far with things like trying to get the ten commandments removed from federal buildings, banning nativity scenes on public property, and protesting religious gatherings because they are taking place on public property. In my opinion, public property is for the public- including the religious. It is as if the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction and it makes me question their motives. We are supposed to be about the freedom of religion- not freedom from religion as has been mentioned so, so many times.

Instead I see the more secular we become, the more
shocked secularists are when some people try to
slow or stop the tide of it in certain areas. We have
to live here together, ya know? If this were truly a
country without moral anchor (which is the direction
it's going in), it would self-implode.

I agree with everything in your above paragraph.

It is as if the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction

Ever had a humanities class on this subject?
IT was presented to us in one of the classes I had as something like this:

Apollo---------------------|-------------------------Dionysis

Apollo represents order and control to the extreme.
Dionysis represents chaos and carefree living to the extreme.
Apollo is status quo, stifling.
Dionysis is creative, growing.
If we stay too long entirely in Apollonian thought, it becomes entrenched dogma that foists itself as the only truth on the planet and stagnates there.
If we linger in Dionysian thought, creativity allows advances but soon, as the creative march goes forward, nothing becomes truth and we stagnate back to Apollonian thought again.

The center mark is the pendulum, which swings wildly back and forth
between extremes, during which huge amounts of suffering are inflicted
on the people. The apollonians revolt for order and tyrannical control and progress
and the dionysians die in great numbers. The dionysians revolt for
chaos and carefree living, creative advancements, and the apollonians die in great number.

This is played out over and over again in history and is where the slogan
"Order out of Chaos" comes from. Problem is, the middle, the grey area is too non-descript and doesn't
sufficiently depict thoughts of what is and isn't "good". So they align themselves with a side, morally, and fine tune it further from there, such as liberal or conservative, democratic or republican, religious or non-religious (and further into fundamentalist or non-fundie, abrahamic or pagan, and further into islamic or judaic or christian, cult or mainstream, nordic or roman or greek, etc)

There are so many little variations in there that it really is not possible to characterize anyone as entirely to one side or the other, but to bring "Order out of Chaos", someone has to be mis-characterized as THE "problem". That pendulum insists on rebounding to the extremes.

reply to post by AshleyD

Christianity's influence is waning- not growing.

Thank you for your honest assessment! This has been my experience also. When I left Christianity a few years ago - the stats were way down.

Our thoughts will likely be different and you may not like my take; but I feel that religion is winding down and has lost its direction (as something that is supposed to happen).

Originally posted by Lilitu

Originally posted by idle_rocker
reply to post by Lilitu

 

And Mosaic law...hence the ten commandments being a basis for jurisprudence. Without it, if still under Roman law, we would still be crucifying each other wholesale.

Edit to Add: There are disagreements about this, but this is not unusual in jurisprudence. as in: www.sodabob.com...

"...the role of the Ten Commandments in the formation of Western law is an historical fact. The Ten Commandments are the "very fountainhead of the common law" (the body of law developed in England and followed in America), according to Herbert W. Titus, founding Dean of the Regent University School of Law and Government. The monument, provocative to some, simply restates that historical fact, he says."
"Law professor John Eidsmoe adds that "Mosaic law has influenced and really been the basis for Western law." Eidsmoe, who teaches law at Faulkner University..."

My bolding. Interesting that these two people, Herbert W. Titus and John Eidsmoe are employed at christian universities. Regent University was founded by none other than Pat Robertson (you can hear what he thinks about genuine academia here. Fulkner says of itself that foundation is "predicated on the conviction that the Bible is the inspired word of God" which is about what you could expect from a "university" which began as a simple bible school. Sorry but you couldn't have chosen two more biased sources for your information. Yes "education" really is the way to take over the country.

You say you don't see dominionism? Open your eyes. They are leading you about by the nose and yet you are blind to it. Both of the universities in the quotes you cited are dominionist.

Originally posted by idle_rocker
By the way, in case you need an American history lesson, Englishmen left Britain to get out from under Church Rule, and worship as they saw fit...not the government's way. That is the basis of the American Constitution. It may have some English law, some Roman law and a few others thrown in the mix, but the founding fathers knew exactly what they wanted...and that was freedom OF religion.

LOL! I need a lesson.

Sure religious freedom was one reason but even a casual reading of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence reveals that it was far from being the primary reason.

Oh, I so apologize for quoting from a Biased source not to your liking. After all, ALL written (and verbal) word for that matter is biased, as are the revisionists and translators of the Constitution. As are the folks on ATS. Ask any judge for his/her OPINION.

So, call me an Evangelical...I'll welcome that with open arms...and doesn't bother me one iota what you or anyone else thinks about it. Oh wait a minute, I think I do care...NOT.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I understand where you are coming from, I think. I left "religion" 20 years ago and became a Christian a little over 10 years ago. I belong to no organized religion. I call myself a Christian because I have a personal relationship with Christ. I believe Jesus is who He said He is and I try to follow His teachings. I am a very selfish person and giving that up to follow Christ is very difficult. I don't always get it right, but with His help, I do my best.

There is a definite problem with organized religion, which is why I don't proscribe to any particular denomination, although you could probably call me closest to Presbyterian. I don't attend a church because I haven't found one I believed was close enough to what I believe, and for various other reasons. I have found my religion in my heart and follow it through my own interpretation of the Bible and, of course, believe my interpretation is best...lol. But that doesn't mean I can't tolerate what others believe.

This is why I believe we live in the end-times church. The churches just are not what they were meant to be and we are suffering because of it.

reply to post by LDragonFire


If this is the purpose for christianity and not the mission of Love and compassion like the bible preaches and teaches then the bible must be wrong. I challenge you to prove the bible is False.



Keeper

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

If this is the purpose for christianity and not the mission of Love and compassion like the bible preaches and teaches then the bible must be wrong. I challenge you to prove the bible is False.



Keeper

Uh I challenge you to prove that Christianity is a religion of compassion and love!!!

How far you are willing to go in regards to your religious beliefs?
Why do Christian and other Religious groups lie?
A contradiction in the bible
Women need to shut up and sit down
The USA was founded by Secret Societies and Not Christianity.
If creationism is from God then why is it so imperfect.
Religious beliefs: You must die before you start really living.
Can we list bible predictions that have come true?
Is the belief in God, a primitive instinct?

I haven't proved anything, I just like discussing this topic.

reply to post by LDragonFire


I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. First of all, I didn't see any frothy mouth rabidly hateful Christian comments in those threads. I admit I have only participated fully in a few of your threads and only quickly scanned the first pages of the other links. It looks like you are trying to show examples of hateful Christians?

First of all, I didn't really see that but of course I am biased. Second, although it is sad when a Christian is a poor example of the faith (and of course I admit I am guilty of letting emotions and ego get in my way sometimes and am just as guilty), judge the faith by the texts, not the people.

You said to another member, "Uh I challenge you to prove that Christianity is a religion of compassion and love!!!" Well, that would be easy to do. Christianity is very obviously a religion of compassion and love. However, it is the people that act like doofuses. Simply because they're people who still learn and grow. It's not a magical, instant transformation where we become saints. We're still people.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Let me be very frank here.

Moderators will determine when the posters are off topic.

Understood by all?

Fair enough. In that case I will go ahead and answer AshleyD's question.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Here is a good question.

We have Islam desiring world domination.
We have Evangelical Christians desiring their ideals being spread far and wide.
We have the ecumenical movement desiring to make everyone 'content.'
We have atheists desiring secular everything.
We have liberals and conservatives at opposite ends of the spectrum desiring their ideals being spread far and wide.

Who will be the winner?

None of the above. In my opinion, the extreme far-right militia joining domestic terroristic survivalists will win. I am almost certainly wrong though. They are under surveillance after all.

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by idle_rocker

YES! We had all better be on our toes. This coming election is probably one of the most important in history.

I quit voting. To me it looks like the entire planet is locked, set and loaded. Our votes are just polls to see how well they did manipulating the mass mind, but the chosen leaders are decided upon way before any of us go to the polls pretending like we actually have a say in the matter. lol

do you sincerely believe we voted in Bush? i don't. no way were democrats going to take responsbility for the war in Iraq. the idea was to make it look like it was all the brainchild of christians who put the man in power (which we didn't), after which he goes about the world making the name of the USA and christianity, a mockery. it was quite devious and brilliantly planned. gotta hand it to the people manipulating all this: it really is the best snow job i've ever seen.

Not very hopeful, I know, but I do have one hope and it's the most important one of all, so I'm happy for that.

So... the Iraq war is a secret plot by Democrats to discredit Christianity through Bush?

And no, eight years after the fact, I suppose you Christians have decided you don't want Bush after all. But boy, right after we started racking up piles of dead Muslims, you guys sure did love him, and after the '04 election, I sure seem to remember an awful lot of you demanding that the landslide (1%, wow!) victory that apparently Christians singlehandedly caused was a "mandate" for a near theocracy and stacking of judicial benches with scads of anti-woman, anti-gay, pro-Old Testament judges. And yeah, it was Christians who claimed to have caused it, which is why in 2005 and 2006, they were screaming and gnashing their teeth that they weren't getting their Hell On Earth fast enough, even though the GOP was officially their prison bitch.

Hell, here you are, trying to front you don't support Bush... and yet are blaming the Democratic party for all the crap he's done. Simply astounding.