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When Evangelicals come out to vote.

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posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 03:27 PM
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Great way to say it Undo. And Darkelf, you are right. Politics tends to control religion not the other way around. Politics is controlled by Satan, so why wouldn't he then try to control the churches through Politics?

The guys at the top are self-lovers. The worst kind of sin...pride. They're in it for themselves and have, thus, bought into Satan's lie.

You'd be hard-pressed to find any politician that follows true Christianity. Most of them, like we said, are only in it for themselves and use Christianity to put themselves into power.




posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf


The conspiracy is not Christians wanting to rule the world, but politicians using Christians to reach that goal.


Yes sirree bob, and making it seem like it's all the idea of christians everywhere. For example, the citizens of the USA authorized George Bush to go get Osama. Instead, he did everything BUT get Osama. Christians did not approve of him going into Iraq and blowing people up, neither did most of the other people in the USA. Nobody did, really. The whole freakin' planet was against the idea, with the exception of maybe one or two countries with some clout.

It isn't the conservative position to enforce democracy on the world or blow people up for financial or political gain. So who is behind this? Hey, it could be the popes (there are 2, one is the jesuit general, called the black pope), in which case the word "christian" could be tossed into the mix, but then you'd have to wonder why his opinion over ruled the opinions of the rest of the planet, as far as what the USA military was going to be used for.

If people reading this can't see the writing on the wall, you need to look closer. Suspend your prejudice against christianity long enough to see what the texts say on this subject.

Get this, the only reason the Book of Revelation was left in the bible at the Council of Trent was because they didn't know it was talking about their empire as much as any of the previous ones. They thought it was a commentary on the pagan Roman empire. They didn't recognize themselves in the text.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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( i need to add a note that the catholic people are pretty much innocent bystanders in all this. many of them also didn't agree with what bush was doing. so it isn't a particular religion, it's the guys at the top who don't hold any paradigm more important than their own thirst for power)

[edit on 30-3-2008 by undo]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by undo
...I don't think you have alot to worry about though, as the "antichrist" government gets a chance at it first. Of course, him and his lackeys basically destroy the whole planet, but whatcha gonna do? You wanted him and he's happy to oblige.



Stawman. We are talking about christian dominionism, a real and insidious movement in the US collectively known as the Religious/Evangelical Right which goes out of its way to make its positions on issues and its political agenda known. It is very well documented. It (the conspiracy) is not the stuff of archaic ergot inspired phantasmagoria.



Originally posted by AshleyD
Are there some evangelical Christians pushing their own agenda? Actually, yes. And God bless them!


Who was that Roman citizen who said "Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"? If this group ever achieves the control it lusts after, you no doubt will be happy to see Roe V. Wade over-turned and I.D. taught in the schools. Later after they have established complete control over all Federal, state and local governments and the mass media and begin executing innocent Americans for such trite reasons as being gay, or being adulterers or disobedient teens or backsliders etc. then it will be too late to stand up and say or do anything about it. And since that little leaven will have had its full effect by then will you be able to look upon the inquisitioners dragging off your neighbor's disobedient daughter to the death camp and say anything other than - "god bless them!!"?

[edit on 30-3-2008 by Lilitu]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:09 PM
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well like it or not, people do have to live together in something approaching harmony. and if it's all one-sided, problems are going to arise.

napoleon pointed out religion as a handy tool to keep the common person in line. this has been used repeatedly for everything from making war to forcing people to accept public behaviors that are an affront to their senses and spiritual foundations.

let me give you a scenario:

guy becomes a christian and decides to give up his addiction to porn. it's eating up all his money and creating problems in his relationship with his better half, who can't possibly be as perfectly posed and proportioned as the centerfold, without spending an ungodly amount of money on plastic surgery.

he goes to his computer, and his email is full of unsolicited porn for everything from sex with beautiful women/men, to sex with farm animals to sex with children, sex with items, and variations on those themes. now he is just a normal hetero, so the first thing that offends him is the massive temptation that this unsolicited email represents. the second thing that offends him is the complete and utter abandonment of anything approaching the ability of the human being to be more than an animal. the third thing that offends him is the fact this was all done without his permission or desire.

he believes in the right of others to dig threw their own solicted email for whatever they want, but he's darn mad that now he's hearing that old familar siren call and he didn't even ask for it.

he turns on the TV and on a normal channel, GIRLS GONE WILD is plastered all over the screen.
the guy just wants to break his addiction but the stuff is everywhere.

why? because only one side of the issue is given any quarter. if he doesn't want to have to deal with it, he can just turn off his TV, quit opening his email, and so on. he doesn't hate women, in fact, just the opposite. he LOVES the way they look.

it's like going up to one of your best friends, who is trying to break the addiction to booze, and handing them a bottle of their favorite variety. and not just once, but over and over again. and in various ways. a singing telegram with a bottle of booze. free booze in the snail mail. a coupon to buy more booze in the email, all of which is unsolicted.

people do have to live with each other, ya know?



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf

The conspiracy is not Christians wanting to rule the world, but politicians using Christians to reach that goal.


Sorry but that just doesn't jibe with the facts. All you have done is to veil the common christian evasive mantra ("But they weren't true christians) in different words. The people at the top who are involved in this attempt to subvert the US government and the constitution are in fact christians.

But let's assume you are correct. Explain to me how christians who supposedly have a personal relationship with none other than the god of the universe can be so gullible? How is it that born again holy ghost indwelt people can be such willing vessels in the hands of evil? Is it because they aren't true christians either?



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by Lilitu
If this group ever achieves the control it lusts after, you no doubt will be happy to see Roe V. Wade over-turned and I.D. taught in the schools.


I have one point of agreement and one point of disagreement with your above assumptions.

1). Yes. I would be thrilled to have Roe vs. Wade overturned. Mainly because the thought of little babies being vacuumed out of their mommy's tummy as a form of birth control makes we want to cry.

2). I am not a fan of ID and do not wish to have it taught in schools. I am a fan of 'creationism' (that specific term). I don't need to repackage my beliefs under different names in an attempt to receive merit.


And since that little leaven will have had its full effect by then will you be able to look upon the inquisitioners dragging off your neighbor's disobedient daughter to the death camp and say anything other than - "god bless them!!"?


And yet you just accused Undo of using a strawman!?



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


I like your analogy. Problem is, this stuff is everywhere and there is nothing we can do about it. Ever try to explain ED commercials to a three-year-old?

I can understand why Christians would like the world to restrain itself a little better, but we are not of this world and this is not our home.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
reply to post by undo
 


I like your analogy. Problem is, this stuff is everywhere and there is nothing we can do about it. Ever try to explain ED commercials to a three-year-old?

I can understand why Christians would like the world to restrain itself a little better, but we are not of this world and this is not our home.


yeah, you're right, just wanted to explain why these things end up with political legs.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by Lilitu
But let's assume you are correct. Explain to me how christians who supposedly have a personal relationship with none other than the god of the universe can be so gullible? How is it that born again holy ghost indwelt people can be such willing vessels in the hands of evil? Is it because they aren't true christians either?


How is it that anyone can be gullible? No one is above being manipulated, including true Christians. Being a "born again holy ghost indwelt" Christian in no way gives special powers. These people are no better or worse than you are, they are still human. The difference is that they believe differently and it is these beliefs that are used to manipulate them.

It is easy to let the cares of life overwhelm you. Christians are as guilty of this as anyone else. Many people don't feel that they have the time to search for the truth and those are the most easily misled. They can't see that the institution that they have trusted has turned on them.

We see this in all walks of society. Just walk up to someone and tell them the truth about your favorite conspiacy and notice the blank stare. That is why I said that we at ATS are different. The Christians that are being manipulated are no different than anyone else.

(edited for clarity)

[edit on 3/30/2008 by darkelf]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:36 PM
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How is it that born again holy ghost indwelt people can be such willing vessels in the hands of evil?


We tend to get his satanic majesty's nearly undivided attention. Nothing makes a better object lesson than a wayward christian or a christian under heavy fire, who isn't accustomed to it and gives in under the pressure, makes mistakes, and so on. hypocracy is a word that applies equally to pretty much everyone, the only difference is, we are supposed to know better as christians and sometimes, frankly, we don't.

to be a christian is quite similar to being a buddhist in that
you are supposed to train and discipline your flesh so you can rise
above its hampering conditions. it's not easy and no one said it would
be in that regard.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 



Satan is a lot smarter than you give him credit for. He could care less about the Satanists. The people who he has in his back pocket do not even believe he exists...


"The devil, depend upon it, can sometimes do a very gentlemanly thing."
- Robert Louis Stevenson



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
And yet you just accused Undo of using a strawman!?


That was no strawman fallacy as I am still talking about Dominionism. I have not taken any other position. Fact is many if not in this movement want to replace our secular justice system with Mosaic jurisprudence much like islamic radicals living in secular muslim and western nations want to impose fiqh or sharia. In so doing, they will greatly expand the "offences" punishable as capital crimes.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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Well since we're on the subject of politics, I don't think the Christians are the only ones being used. What about the so-called "rock n roll" set and the hollywood gang? They fit into it just as well if not more than the Christians in using their way of life to promote their beliefs into politics.

Let's not forget the political sword cuts both ways. And in each case, I think we can still blame the same instigator - the prince of this world.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by Lilitu

Originally posted by AshleyD
And yet you just accused Undo of using a strawman!?


That was no strawman fallacy as I am still talking about Dominionism. I have not taken any other position. Fact is many if not in this movement want to replace our secular justice system with Mosaic jurisprudence much like islamic radicals living in secular muslim and western nations want to impose fiqh or sharia. In so doing, they will greatly expand the "offences" punishable as capital crimes.


Do you seriously believe that would happen? And as far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is wrong. I've seen entirely too many examples of people who were wrongly executed for things they didn't do and even then, there's still a chance they can be rehabilitated. Jesus basically put his two cents in on the issue when he rescued the lady who was going to be stoned. If Dominionism is the order of the day, we are all in trouble.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by undo]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by Lilitu
 


Actually, the system of government we have in place today IS based on Mosaic jurisprudence, along with a few others. So what exactly are you proposing be changed? That one particular group of people have no right to voice an opinion? That doesn't sound like what the founding fathers meant when they wrote the constitution.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


I don't see dominionism at all. What I see is different people with different ideas. That doesn't constitute dominionism. Please give your definition of dominionism as I'm failing to see the connection.

Edit: This question is posed to Lillitu, not Undo. sorry.

[edit on 3/30/08 by idle_rocker]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by idle_rocker
reply to post by Lilitu
 


Actually, the system of government we have in place today IS based on Mosaic jurisprudence, along with a few others.


Christian revisionism at its finest!
The American justice system is based upon the model of British Common Law, which is itself a derivative of Roman law.

Roman Law and Common Law: Forerunners of a General Unification of Law



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by Lilitu
 


And Mosaic law...hence the ten commandments being a basis for jurisprudence. Without it, if still under Roman law, we would still be crucifying each other wholesale.

Edit to Add: There are disagreements about this, but this is not unusual in jurisprudence. as in: www.sodabob.com...



"...the role of the Ten Commandments in the formation of Western law is an historical fact. The Ten Commandments are the "very fountainhead of the common law" (the body of law developed in England and followed in America), according to Herbert W. Titus, founding Dean of the Regent University School of Law and Government. The monument, provocative to some, simply restates that historical fact, he says."
"Law professor John Eidsmoe adds that "Mosaic law has influenced and really been the basis for Western law." Eidsmoe, who teaches law at Faulkner University, cited the 890 a.d. legal code of British monarch Alfred the Great, which opened with a recitation of the Ten Commandments. Charlemagne similarly relied on biblical law, he said."
"But facts of history aside, should the Ten Commandments play a role in contemporary law? Yes, says Titus. The Ten Commandments are the "very foundation of law and liberty in America" and critical to our continued freedom..."
""Our position is that the Ten Commandments are not, strictly speaking, a religious document," said Eidsmoe. "They are a legal code, they are a civil and criminal code, and they are a moral code that applied to Israel and have been foundational for other societies."
"Besides which, America draws people from around the world, including Hindus and Buddhists, who seek the freedom enjoyed in this nation. The source of that freedom, Titus points out, is the Ten Commandments — especially the first commandment. "They may be offended, but the reason why they enjoy the liberties they have is the very thing that gives them offense."




[edit on 3/30/08 by idle_rocker]

By the way, in case you need an American history lesson, Englishmen left Britain to get out from under Church Rule, and worship as they saw fit...not the government's way. That is the basis of the American Constitution. It may have some English law, some Roman law and a few others thrown in the mix, but the founding fathers knew exactly what they wanted...and that was freedom OF religion.

[edit on 3/30/08 by idle_rocker]



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by idle_rocker
reply to post by undo
 


I don't see dominionism at all. What I see is different people with different ideas. That doesn't constitute dominionism. Please give your definition of dominionism as I'm failing to see the connection.

Edit: This question is posed to Lillitu, not Undo. sorry.

[edit on 3/30/08 by idle_rocker]



Dominionism describes, in several distinct ways, a tendency among some conservative politically-active Christians to seek influence or control over secular civil government through political action — aiming either at a nation governed by Christians or a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law. The use and application of this terminology is a matter of controversy.

Dominion Theology

Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems[4] with the common belief that society should be governed exclusively by the law of God as codified in the Bible, to the exclusion of secular law, a view also known as theonomy. The most prominent modern formulation of Dominion Theology is Christian Reconstructionism, founded by R. J. Rushdoony in the 1970s. Reconstructionists themselves use the word dominionism to refer to their belief that civil government should be controlled by Christians alone and conducted according to Biblical law.[5][6] Social scientists have used the word "dominionism" to refer to adherence to Dominion Theology[4][7][8] as well as to the influence in the broader Christian Right of ideas inspired by Dominion Theology.[4] Although such influence (particularly of Reconstructionism) has been described by many authors,[9][10] full adherents to Reconstructionism are few and marginalized among conservative Christians.[9][11][12]
Dominionism


And the following is but one good example of this:

Originally posted by AshleyD
1). Yes. I would be thrilled to have Roe vs. Wade overturned. Mainly because the thought of little babies being vacuumed out of their mommy's tummy as a form of birth control makes we want to cry.


They wish the law of the land to be based on their religious beliefs, based on their morality, without question without debate. Yet these same people don't have a problem going to or supporting a war with a culture that does not believe in their religion. Abortion is bad, but war is good. They don't agree with abortion being legal, but it's not good enough for them to abstain from using this procedure, they wish to impose their belief in attempting to make this illegal.

Have you noticed before any supreme court judge is confirmed they must pass the test on where they stand on the abortion issue? Is this the deciding factor you wish to have for the appointment of judges? I would like this test to be about the constitution and personal liberty and freedom.

Personal freedom and liberty is not the goal of the Evangelical Christian, they want dominion and control, and obedience to their gods law for all.

I'm very agnostic, frankly I don't believe in the bible or the Christian God, yet these people wish me to lay down and be ruled by there viewpoints without debate.

Most of the posts in this thread show the brainwashing that has occurred and is occurring.

They have been taken mind body and soul to the point there is no reasoning with them, they are blind and can't see.

Humans have searched since our beginning for the meaning of life, the whole why are we here question, these people have the pride to act as if they have found it.




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