Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

reply to post by sir_chancealot

You CAN die from having too much sugar in your blood. What happens is that your body produces an acid call "Ketones" these Ketones burn the body's fat rather than using insulin (because of the lack of insulin) until the body withers away and dies.

This is why there are 10,000+ deaths from Diabetes every year.

Mitch

reply to post by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR


You know, I think you've just pointed out to me where I got all tangled up in this thread. You are absolutely correct, faith and religious practices are two completely different animals. My entries are all based around the fact that their faith is not a 'cause' for anything, whether they believe in God or whatever isn't what killed this poor child. It was the practice of the religion in the form of not seeking 'mundane' medical help that did it.

whew! All I can say is thank you.

reply to post by Maxmars


My pleasure. I have a good thought from time to time . Next ones scheduled for 6pm December 22nd 2010 be on the lookout

reply to post by Jadette

I have noticed that not one single person defending these people has answered the many queries of parallel situations.

What if these people had been Muslim? Buddahists? Satanists? Snake charmers? Believed in Hoodo? Star People? Spiritualists?

What if their religion told them that they must do other things detrimental to their children? What if they believed in sexual union with their children? Or multilation? Or beat them until they couldn't walk? Or forced them to fast until they were ill?

Intercession isn't about the state telling parents what to do. It's about realising that children have rights too, that they are not property. That parents are, I'll say this again, Guardians - not owners. And if they fail at this guardianship, then the state has an obligation to the welfare of the children, defending their rights. In this case, the right to live.

Quite the point, I'll admit. And I'll also have to admit that I would probably be pretty angry if, say, the girl had died form complications of a female circumcism.

However, despite my anger, I still could not see demanding an end to parental discretion in cases of religious faith, which is the single most important point I have argued throughout this thread. Parental guardianship is our very reason for existence, regardless of whether you follow a particular religion or believe in evolution. That is a sacred trust that is not endowed by any society or government and therefore is not theirs to remove.

We do have laws that protect children. It is illegal for me to kill my son for disobeying me. It is illegal for me to lock my daughter in a closet for 6 months and feed her stale bread and water. I am required by law to see to my children's education, whether it be through public schools, private schools, or home-schooling. I accept these laws as necessary to protect the rights inherent in children as future adults to some basic degree. However, when the line is crossed, when any governmental body can tell me what to feed my children, what to teach them, when to carry them to a doctor, then we have moved from protecting the children into a realm of removing the parent.

How many warm stories have you heard of foster homes? How many times have you heard someone say "I am so glad that the government raised me instead of my parents"? A few, perhaps, but compare that to the millions of children who grow up happily in a family, be it a religious one or not. I have heard vastly more tales of children growing up out of control and in legal trouble for heinous crimes due to interference with simple disciplinary actions in the home than I have those who praised the government for removing them from an 'abusive' home.

So my position stands, without regard to specific religion as long as the basic laws are not heinously broken.

reply to post by rizla

I've made exactly the same point 2 or 3 times, and not one advocate of prayer as a form of healing has responded. Bah.

My apologies. I honestly did not see that to which you refer. Please consider this an answer to your query as well.

TheRedneck

People need to be responsible for their selfs and their children. They used their 11 year old girl as a guinea pig for their faith and look what happened. If you're an adult and you believe that God will save your life or cure you from a disease then fine, but don't throw it on your children. That girl thought her parents were right because that's what kids do, they look up to their parents for guidance. Unfortunately she died trusting her parents ignorance.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
We do have laws that protect children. It is illegal for me to kill my son for disobeying me. It is illegal for me to lock my daughter in a closet for 6 months and feed her stale bread and water. I am required by law to see to my children's education, whether it be through public schools, private schools, or home-schooling. I accept these laws as necessary to protect the rights inherent in children as future adults to some basic degree.

And you should also be required by law to seek medical attention and not allow your child to die a slow painful death for the sake of an archaic belief. That should be required by law WAY ABOVE schooling, etc. If you choose to allow your child (i.e. future adult) to die of something ENTIRELY treatable without drugs, which insulin is NOT, it's part of our bodies, then decent people should kick in your door and take the suffering child to safety. Plain and simple.

Jadette says: "As for anyone arguing that people who want to intravene into this child's life is a control freak, I would argue that anyone that thinks that they OWN a child is the true control freak. How is it that we disdain slavery and yet feel that children are the /property/ of their parents? "

***And I ask what makes you think that you or anyone else OWNS or has the right to make decisions for this or any other child?

Jail? Death Sentence? Wow! By what right do you believe you are capable authorative arbiters? Your thoughts are scary. This sort of thing happens often. At this very moment there are thousands of children all over the world who are suffering terribly because of acts or lack of acts on the part ot their parents. If you want to get upset over it you could drive yourself to mental/emotional exhaustion. Why don't you just get on with your life and stop dreaming of torturing others for what you perceive as a crime? Your negativity and vindictivness only adds to the world's woes.

Rubber Bullet says:" Do you really want to live in a society where independent human beings are FORCED to DIE from CUREABLE diseases because of morons like YOU with criminal negligence?"

****Your statement is irrational and meaningless. Where did you get your authority to judge this as criminal negligence. Do people have the right to practice their religion as they chooze or must they ask you? Tell me exactly where there is any law that makes religious faith a criminal act.

THEREDNECK summed it all up exquisitley.

Does anyone else see the news coverage of this as another attack on Christianity?

Natural selection at work.

Darwin was right.

reply to post by OhZone


First of all, learn how to post. Second, I love when people try and turn it around to attempt to make those who care about the well-being of children out to be intolerant, bloodthirsty monsters because we advocate action to stop the abuse and neglect of children. Your "god" trusts you enough to allow you to reproduce, and you spit in your "god's" face by allowing the child to come to harm in his or anybody else's name. If our thoughts scare you, TOO BAD. Get used to them cuz they aren't going anywhere. Keep crying about "attacks" on Christianity. I attack ALL organized religion equally. Religious extremists like yourself have no place in today's civilized world, EVOLVE, like your "god" intended you to, and join the civilized world. Or don't. Whatever.

Originally posted by 27jd
And you should also be required by law to seek medical attention and not allow your child to die a slow painful death for the sake of an archaic belief. That should be required by law WAY ABOVE schooling, etc. If you choose to allow your child (i.e. future adult) to die of something ENTIRELY treatable without drugs, which insulin is NOT, it's part of our bodies, then decent people should kick in your door and take the suffering child to safety. Plain and simple.

Irrational thinking seems to be the cause du jour. Irrational in that your entire post is laced with intolerance and bigotry. Allow me to demonstrate:

Originally not posted by 27jd
And you should also be required by law to seek religious services and not allow your child to die a sinful eternal death for the sake of an oppositional belief. That should be required by law WAY ABOVE schooling, etc. If you choose to allow your child (i.e. future adult) to partake of something ENTIRELY sinful and without prayer, then decent people should kick in your door and take the suffering child to safety. Plain and simple.

Amazing how similar that post can come to religious intolerance...

TheRedneck

reply to post by 27jd


1st of all, how does ohzone need to learn how to post? Just curious.
2nd, I see that we are gonna turn this into yet another thread on this board to debate Christianity.
In response to the question people keep asking " what if the parents had been Hindu, or Muslim or some other religion?"
I'd feel the exact same way. Praying is a great thing. Reguardless of the parents religious affiliations they misguided themselves. We have beat this horse to death. It seems that every single thread I have read, it somehow gets turned into a Christian bashing bonanza.
I never once came in here with my Bible waving and spitting out Bible quotes. I feel that I have been very mellow and to the point and have not used my faith to shield me from anything. There are a few here with some very strong anti-Christian hatred and they post it everywhere. I've seen it on threads about everything from abortion to aliens. From homosexuality to terrorist prisoners. Some place I can see the place for it, but come on it has gotten old. We can debate Christianity all everyone wants, in the end we still have two sides with equal members apparently on both sides.

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by OhZone

 

First of all, learn how to post. Second, I love when people try and turn it around to attempt to make those who care about the well-being of children out to be intolerant, bloodthirsty monsters because we advocate action to stop the abuse and neglect of children. Your "god" trusts you enough to allow you to reproduce, and you spit in your "god's" face by allowing the child to come to harm in his or anybody else's name. If our thoughts scare you, TOO BAD. Get used to them cuz they aren't going anywhere. Keep crying about "attacks" on Christianity. I attack ALL organized religion equally. Religious extremists like yourself have no place in today's civilized world, EVOLVE, like your "god" intended you to, and join the civilized world. Or don't. Whatever.

And again, we're back to this level of rebuttal "learn to post." You obviously had no problem following Redneck's post, so why say this? Did the structure of the post offend you somehow?

The thing that makes others react to you as if you were an intolerant bloodthirsty monster is neither your call to action nor your fervent desire to protect children. Both are commendable. It's that you are clearly and openly intolerant focusing on 'belief in god' as the 'cause' for her death. At least you are forthright enough to admit that you are on the attack.

However, you insist on calling the notion of believing in god as religious extremism. Actually, collectively speaking, 'hanging's too good for them,' or, ''they should burn in hell!' (that's ironic) or 'rot in jail'; calling faithful people un-evolved and uncivilized is extremism in and of itself.

Your words represent the knee-jerk reaction of intolerance. Please stop calling names, stop equating belief in god to the terrible decisions people make, people make terrible decisions for every reason under the sun. It's unlikely that the faithful are going anywhere either so maybe you should get used to it too.

The weirdest part of this is that I agree they were wrong, I agree that the way they practiced their faith was destructive and merits no amount of acceptance. There was no reason to forgo medical treatment for this child that I can see - based on what they call their religion. Why you insist on weakening your argument by turning this event into a 'poster child' for religious intolerance is what I can't agree with.

I don't suppose this makes any difference to you, but I think your indignation with those who practice religious worship is a little over the top.


[edit on 28-3-2008 by Maxmars]

reply to post by TheRedneck


I'm not hiding, nor have I ever hidden the fact that I detest organized religion. I have no tolerance for people who believe in fairy tales told by ancient LIARS to control the masses. It's only a step away from the times they thought the sun was a god, and storms and such were a sign of god's wrath. So you can try and make fantasy posts "not posted by me", or whatever way you think you can gain some sort of intellectual high ground. But the fact is, as intellectual as you think you are, you believe and base a good portion of your life in a fairy tale, while at the same time, most likely, "sinning" fairly regularly. Again, I have no hidden agenda in my posts, it's right out there, in the open. So no need to try and point out my intolerance, as if it's not readily admitted.

reply to post by Maxmars


See, there ya go. You got it right .

Just a pet peeve of mine when posts contain "so and so said: i like cheeseburgers." Guess I should have just said that, didn't mean to come off as telling people what to do. I apologize.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by 27jd]

I'm not hiding, nor have I ever hidden the fact that I detest organized religion. I have no tolerance for people who believe in fairy tales told by ancient LIARS to control the masses.

Why even make ignorant comments like that? You nor anyone has any proof nor reasonable reason to tefer to the Bible as fairytales by liars.
See, this thread started out about a girl that died while her parents prayed. It is ending as a Christian bashing party. You need to stick to the topic or back out of the debate altogether.

reply to post by Christian Voice


This story, Christian Voice, is DIRECTLY linked to Christianity. So it has a place, because of an ages old lie, another human has died. It was a DIRECT result of Christianity. It has a place here.

reply to post by Christian Voice


Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a moderator. Perhaps you have them put it in your avatar so I can know to respect your authoritah...I was responding to being called intolerant, and was just confirming it. I am intolerant when children die needlessly because of a fairy tale. Very intolerant.

edit to add: please spare me the "Christian bashing" nonsense. I bash ALL organized religions, as they most likely will be the downfall of our species. Spirituality and religion are two totally different things, we should all have a relationship with "god", but it should be entirely internal.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by 27jd]

This story, Christian Voice, is DIRECTLY linked to Christianity

No it isn't. It is related to two misguided people who admitedly belonged to no church or religious affiliation. They just picked up a Bible and went with it. Don't judge the whole by the mistakes of the few. Not all Christians are fanatical like that. Anything can be taken to extremes. We are currently at war with EXTREMIST MUSLIMS. Are all Muslims extremists? I really don't think so. We're not all like that.

reply to post by 27jd


Again,again,again, noone died because of a fairy tale.
Let me ask you this, if a person has a headache and they take two tylenol to help it and it still will not go away and they take 2 more, and 2 more, and in frustration take more and more and eventually overdose, was tylenol the company responsible for his deeath, or was tylenol the pill responsible? I say neither. There are instructions on the bottle. The Bible has instructions. If someone doesn't follow it correctly it's not Christianity's fault nor is it God's.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
We are currently at war with EXTREMIST MUSLIMS. Are all Muslims extremists? I really don't think so. We're not all like that.

Right, and I detest the muslim "faith" as well. ANY manmade definition of the undefineable makes my blood boil, because of the heinous acts carried out in just about ALL of their names throughout our existence. That's NOT what we're here for, to grovel at the feet of invisible authority figures. There IS a higher plane of existence, I know that in my heart, but we as men are not meant to put a name on it, and follow rules made up by men saying they "spoke" to god. It's another means of control, and the tool of evil. You are ALL being fooled by the evil energy you call Satan...