Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

Not being able to afford it is an excuse. I grew up what most people and the government considers poor. I did not have any insurance and my mother couldn't afford it. The thing is treatments and programs are out there.

While its not super common knowledge it wouldnt have taken much effort for the parents to find out about such a program.


Of course now that im adult a lot of these programs aren't willing to help, but thats besides the point. I'm old enough to take care of my own affairs.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
So please PLEASE don't try to argue the case for God on the grounds that "he might be there". I might grow wings out of my ass and sail butt-first across the grey English skies, but until it actually happens I won't sit around believing it will, as nothing, NOTHING suggests it might!

I'm not arguing the existence of "God" in any way. And calling "him" a "he" shows that you are not getting my point at all. I agree there is no man in the sky watching, judging, making tornadoes etc. We can split atoms of atoms all day long, however the driving force behind the entire universe, what causes atoms to be atoms, etc. is what YOU or I have NO comprehension of, and if you stop trying to explain everything maybe you can feel the existence of a driving force in the universe. If not, oh well. That's the good thing about NOT being religious, others don't have to agree.

I have heard stories like this before and cannot help feeling agression when thinking of people like the parents of this poor girl. Most irritating with these kind of things is that if it would happen to me, I would loose all faith in whatever god I believed in. But no, these parents (amongst millions and millions of other dissapointed one's)...'They didn't had enough faith'...??!?!

Will they ever learn? I am so afraid 'they' will never learn...

How is it possible that people like this believe in a god? Aren't they actually to stupid to believe anything? Who or what has convinced them to believe in their god? Why did this work while everything else fails?

Stupid religious crap!

Originally posted by Christian Voice

, and then you too will become as angry as I am that some poor kid was killed by her parents in the name of "Jesus".

You do have anger issues fella. The girl was not killed, more or less killed in the name of Jesus. The girl died, plain and simple. There is alot more to diabetes than just insulin. I had an uncle die from complications due to diabetes. My mother is diabetic and has been in and out of the hospital for the past few months because the doctors cannot control her blood sugar levels. They keep increasing insulin shots, not working. Now her heart is starting to flutter and she has difficulty walking. We don't yet know how far along her diabetes was or if that's all that was wrong with her, whether her kidneys had begun to fail, brain damage or what. If it was just something as simple as an insulin injection and they refused, then shame on them.

This will be my last post to you, because you are not listening. There is no crack into which I can cram the crowbar of understanding to lever your closed mind open.

I have no issues with my anger. I'm fine with it. You can cut all the "fella" rubbish too - we aren't pals, no need to act like it.

This is the cold, hard truth: This little girl died because her parents thought "God" would save her. They ignored conventional medical treatments that are fine for the rest of the population, and decided they knew best. They knew nothing, and the result of their inaction proves it.

I don't care about the details - they are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how she died from diabetes, even whether it was treatable or not. What matters is that THEY DECIDED THEY KNEW BEST.

They decided to choose a route that has no proven historical precedent over one that has hundreds of confirmed successes every day.

This is total and utter fanaticism, as bad as capturing a poor guy and filming yourself cutting off his head in the name of Allah. A human died because of religion. One more on the pile, I'm afraid.

Although genetics may make one susceptible to both types of diabetes, the typical North American diet that is high in refined carbohydrates such as candy, soda and cakes etc. Processed foods, high in meat consumption, and low in fibre and complex carbohydrates, is the number one underlying cause of the disorder.
People with Diabetes Type I or II, must avoid nitrates, nitrites and nitrosamines which are found in most sandwich type meats. Nitrates can also be found in drinking water. A study evaluated the drinking water in Colorado and found a correlation between the concentrations of nitrates in the water and the incidence of insulin-dependent diabetes. The study concluded that the toxic concentration of nitrosamines triggered free -radical production, which in turn damaged the insulin producing cells of the pancreas. In Sweden. Researchers found that insulin dependent diabetic children tend to eat more foods containing nitrates than children who do not have diabetes.
People with diabetes then should consume a diet rich in whole grains, legumes, vegetables, fresh fruits, nuts (except peanuts), and seeds. They should avoid refined products including white refined sugar, caffeine and alcohol. They also should avoid consumption of meat. In type II diabetes obesity is the major factor. With an exercise program and a dietary change, diabetes can be controlled and insulin treatment is not required. Exercise will help the person with diabetes to achieve or maintain a normal body weight. Through exercise, the diabetic individual will reduce blood glucose levels, thus improving blood glucose (sugar) control. It is important though, that individual monitor the blood sugar level before and after exercise to see if they need to modify the insulin dose to prevent a hypoglycemic (i.e. dangerously low blood sugar) reaction.

Along with eating healthy and exercising, taking nutritional supplements are also important. Many studies have found the effect of supplements of Magnesium, vitamin C, vitamin E, vitamin B, copper, nicotinamide (niacin), manganese, fish oils (omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids), and zinc along with Chromium have all been shown to benefit diabetic I or diabetic II individuals. Vitamin E is helpful because of its antioxidant and also because it plays a role in preventing some of the oxidation-induced blood vessel problem to which diabetics are susceptible. Vitamin C helps to reduce the risk of oxidation. Fish oils also help to protect blood vessels. Magnesium deficiency has been contributed to a reduced insulin production and it has also been associated with glucose intolerance. Studies have shown that copper and manganese have been shown to improve glucose control. Vitamin B 6, deficiency have been shown to reduce both serum and pancreatic insulin levels. It also contributes to degenerative changes in pancreatic beta cells and to abnormal glucose tolerance. Zinc contributes to blood sugar regulation. Chromium can help regulate cholesterol and blood pressure levels and contribute to healthy weight loss. Therefore, chromium helps the body metabolize sugar and supports the synthesis of fat and cholesterol.
Other causes can include structural problems in the cranium and spine, environmental toxins, side effects of medications, vaccinations and emotional trauma. All these stressors deplete the body's vital energy allowing a genetic predisposition to actualize and make it difficult for the body to repair and fight against viral, bacterial and parasitic invaders.

[]
Studies have shown that many diabetics have a common fluke parasite known as Eurytrema. Through the repeated consumption of beef and its bi-products, the pancreas is continually being re-infected with the parasite. In addition it has been shown that the accumulation of wood alcohol (methanol) in the pancreas provides a good breeding ground for the pancreatic fluke. Surprisingly methanol is found in many popular foods, either through packaging or preparation, including bottled water, soda pop and even baby formula! By killing this parasite with the proper remedy and removing the wood alcohol both from the diet and from the body, the need for insulin can be cut in half in three weeks or sooner!

www.everydayliving.com...

Chromium

Chromium supplements have been shown to improve blood sugar control in people with diabetes.1 Consequently, supplementing with chromium could reduce blood sugar levels in people with taking insulin, potentially resulting in abnormally low blood sugar levels (hypoglycemia). While chromium supplementation may be beneficial for people with diabetes, its use in combination with insulin or with any other blood sugar-lowering medication should be supervised by a doctor.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)

Insulin has been shown to decrease the levels of DHEA and DHEA-sulfate in the blood.2 More research is needed to determine the significance of this finding.
Interactions with Herbs

Fenugreek(Trigonella foenum-graecum)

In a controlled study of patients with type 1 diabetes, fenugreek (100 grams per day for ten days) was reported to reduce blood sugar, urinary sugar excretion, serum cholesterol, and triglycerides, with no change in insulin levels.3 In a controlled study of people with type 2 diabetes, fenugreek (25 grams per day for 24 weeks) was reported to significantly reduce blood glucose levels.4 People using insulin should talk with their prescribing doctor before incorporating large amounts of fenugreek into their diet.

Gymnema sylvestre

Although no interactions have been reported, gymnema may decrease the required daily dose of insulin.5 Therefore, people currently using insulin for the treatment of diabetes should discuss the use of this herb with their healthcare professional.
Other Interactions

Alcohol

Alcohol may increase the action of insulin, leading to hypoglycemia (low blood sugar).6 People using insulin should avoid alcohol.

Tobacco (Nicotiana species)

Smoking may decrease insulin activity,7 and it compounds the health problems associated with diabetes. People using insulin are cautioned to avoid smoking.

www.peacehealth.org...

Diseases should be cured with proper activity levels, healthy environment, ample clean water, and sound diet.... not injections from the pharmaceutical company.

brown rice and mung beans for lunch today; 1 kidney.... healthy and strong...

They market the 99 cent cause of the disease,
And quickly offer the ever needed 99 dollar remedy...
Never once mentioning the cure.


Do we really want mandatory medicine for our children?
Should a parent be held liable for denying their child the "conventional" cure?

deny Ritalin,

Sri Oracle

[edit on 27-3-2008 by Sri Oracle]

This is total and utter fanaticism, as bad as capturing a poor guy and filming yourself cutting off his head in the name of Allah. A human died because of religion. One more on the pile, I'm afraid.

I'm quite glad this is your last post to me. You have been nothing but rude and hateful in your widdle posts. If you have issues with God, don't take it out on anyone else but God. Noone on this thread yet has condoned what they did, but noone else is being as hateful as you either.
A girl died, her parents did not kill her. She died of natural causes. Maybe it could have been prevented, maybe not. It's not the governments place to dictate the choices a parent makes. If they commit a crime then it is the law's place to punish them. The government sould not be dictating what we do as a family. We are losing touch with democracy when that happens.
How in the world can you compare this tragedy with a barbaric terrorist act? That sounds a bit like PETA comparing KFC to the Holocaust.
You're right we aren't friends, I don't know you at all, just your pissed widdle remarks on this thread. You can't consider me a friend because i disagree with you. How sad.

Here's a bit of an interview with the parents.

www.foxnews.com...

Just a bit more info for the discussion.

Perhaps it is time for a super moderator to close this thread. Considering the combative and nonproductive turn it has taken.

Ultimately people will do as their religious convictions dictate, and until such time as the government (or the 'will of the people') supersedes personal faith-based convictions, this will be a fact of life.

Ranting and railing notwithstanding, I could never endorse voluntarily surrendering my right to believe what I wish to believe whether others agree or not. Some have called it fanaticism, others call it religious freedom. Either way, your right to be disgusted by someone else's choices remains yours.





[edit on 27-3-2008 by Maxmars]

Originally posted by Christian Voice

This is total and utter fanaticism, as bad as capturing a poor guy and filming yourself cutting off his head in the name of Allah. A human died because of religion. One more on the pile, I'm afraid.

I'm quite glad this is your last post to me. You have been nothing but rude and hateful in your widdle posts. If you have issues with God, don't take it out on anyone else but God. Noone on this thread yet has condoned what they did, but noone else is being as hateful as you either.
A girl died, her parents did not kill her. She died of natural causes. Maybe it could have been prevented, maybe not. It's not the governments place to dictate the choices a parent makes. If they commit a crime then it is the law's place to punish them. The government sould not be dictating what we do as a family. We are losing touch with democracy when that happens.
How in the world can you compare this tragedy with a barbaric terrorist act? That sounds a bit like PETA comparing KFC to the Holocaust.
You're right we aren't friends, I don't know you at all, just your pissed widdle remarks on this thread. You can't consider me a friend because i disagree with you. How sad.

Okay, I'll rise to it.

1. We aren't friends, and never could be, because of your outlook on life. I don't agree with you, in fact, I vehemently disagree. Your response is to use childishness to try and make me change my mind. My "widdle" post? Perhaps an Americanism I'm not familiar with. Who knows. I'm sure you aren't trying to patronise me, because that wouldn't be very Christian, would it? That would be an offensive act in itself, one designed to rile the target, am I correct?

It isn't your religion that is making me actively dislike you, it is the way you present it and the way you can't take it being knocked. If you can't handle me criticising something that probably doesn't exist and is utterly unprovable, and the best you can do is a weak attempt to belittle me to cover up your own ignorance and insecurities about your position in the universe, then it is truly your problem. This is why we will never be friends.

2. I'm being rude because today's news is a short sharp slap in the face to all "God-fearing" people, and most of them, you included, don't even know it. I hope my words were offensive and rude, because maybe you might think "hey, what would Jesus do? Would he cut someone's ear off, or would he heal it instead? I might actually listen, because my entire religion just got a bitchslap". Of course, you didn't. You see an incredibly mislead, but wholly devout, couple who put their faith in religion and it failed them, as it will EVERY TIME. You can't say anything contradictory to this, because there is nothing that can contradict it. All you can do is try and, like a child, weasle your way out by turning it into a playground argument.

3. "Natural causes"? Are you joking? I don't think you are actually being serious here. She had a disease. It was curable, as quoted from the article in someone else's post. She did not have to die. It was fully preventable. It wasn't cancer. It wasn't AIDS. It was something that could have been delt with.

Inaction is as bad as murder. End of story.

4. I don't give a damn what the American government dictates you do or don't do. From a compassionate, human point of view, if someone is sick, you take them to the healer. It has been this way since the dawn of medicine, waaay back in the paleolithic (this may also push your belief's because that is a few thousand years before "God" created the Earth).

You do NOT sit around hoping that the problem will fix itself. Ever. For any problem in any spectrum of human experience. This goes doubly for life-and-death situations.

5. This is a tragedy, born of a complete and utter lack of education combined with an unhealthy dose of fanaticism. It was completely preventable, as a poster just above has highlighted, and highlighted in the article.

6. I have no issue with God. I have an issue with the people who are perfectly happy to believe something without seeing any evidence of it at all.

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin

I realize tempers might be flaring here, CC, but one statement in your last post just could not be ignored. Please do not think of this reply as a condemnation of yourself, because it is not. It is a discussion.

I don't care about the details - they are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how she died from diabetes, even whether it was treatable or not. What matters is that THEY DECIDED THEY KNEW BEST.

Agreed that the details were irrelevant, but here is the exact heart of the debate. Whose place was it to determine what was best?

Was it the little girl's place? Obviously not; she is a child, and has not the knowledge nor the wisdom to make such a decision.

Was it the government's place? I say no, due in large part to the continuous reports of inefficiency, ineffectualness, and incompetence that have plagued every single governmental agency since the Constitution was still wet with ink.

Was it the medical profession's place? Maybe, but with what authority do they make the decision? Under duress of law? Then we again have a governmental decision. And even if there were a way to make the medical profession's decision mandatory, which professional? The doctor in their town? The one in the local hospital? How about the surgeon General? What if they disagree? The insurance company? There is no authority and precious little agreement within the profession itself.

Was it society's decision? That would be a disaster, since we would still be trying to figure out what to do years after the poor girl was dead and buried. This thread proves that much.

No, the only people with greater knowledge of that girl, the people who (in most cases) wish only the best for her and have her interests at heart, are the parents. And while this case, sadly, tragically, had a terrible conclusion, millions of similar decisions are carried out across the planet every single day by parents of children, and they do have happy endings. If you remove the right to make those decisions from this set of parents, then you allow the same right to be removed from all parents, everywhere. And that would lead to more needless deaths. Is this what you are arguing for?

Religion is a very personal matter, and is a vitally important matter to many people, myself included. As long as we have freedom over personal matters, we will have those whom we disagree with. This does not necessarily mean they are wrong; just that we do not agree. And when things go wrong, that does not prove that the very foundation of our society, freedom, is in some way responsible. It proves that reality is painful and unfair. I think we all know that.

May the poor girl rest in peace, and may we debate in peace and wisdom lest her death be worse than meaningless.

TheRedneck

"Natural causes"? Are you joking? I don't think you are actually being serious here. She had a disease. It was curable, as quoted from the article in someone else's post. She did not have to die. It was fully preventable. It wasn't cancer. It wasn't AIDS. It was something that could have been delt with.

Diabetes is not curable, it's treatable. Get your facts straight. It can be just as vicious a killer as cancer. Sometimes it goes beyond treatable as well. My uncle and mother are proof of that. I apologize if you think I was belittling you earlier with my "widdle" comment. I wasn't, I was being facetious. Perhaps uncalled for.

Whats really scary (for me) is this girl

May be a relative of mine. They have the same exact spelling of my last name . Neumann. Which is really rare since it was originally spelled way different in German/Hungarian.

You guys need to lay off CV. . He has agreed that this was not the way to go .
And offered great in site into his side/view of things. Which is what were here for . Not to circle jerk.
You know he will defend his beliefs just as you all are/will.

So on that note. Please take a few seconds to make an intelligent post (not directed at anyone specific) as it will (usually) garner a better response.

Anytime a kid dies/gets killed it will raise emotions. I for one am in agreement that the parents should have to be reviewed by a psychologist at the very least to make sure that for what ever reason this happened . It wont happen again to the other children .

Looking at the picture of this beautiful soul. Which looks exactly like my little sister (more scary to me than anything). I have to admit she looks healthy and well taken care of . And very happy.

If there is an investigation . I hope its carried out with everyones best interest at heart .
IF it is found that the parents were obviously negligent . Then i say let em fry.
But i think we should wait till the investigation is over to "push the plunger"

Hope this helps thing get back on track here .



[edit on 27-3-2008 by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR]

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


Wait so now it is no longer the parent’s choice on how to raise their children?

That has a rather familiar ring to it. What or who then does have the choice on how I raise my child or how my neighbor chooses to raise his?

I think a lot of posters would have issues with someone else telling them how their child will be raised. If the parents do not want the responsibility of the choice they should not breed.

It is true that we do not own our children, but as has already been said we are there to look after them as we believe to be best. How many chose not to vaccinate their child and how many of those become ill and die? These parents are also doing what they believe to be best. Should they be punished as well?

Raist

reply to post by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR


Thanks for the post.

I agree she does seem to be rather healthy looking, maybe a little slim but I cannot say anything about that as I am rather slim.

I would like to see what the investigation has to say as well.

Raist

reply to post by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR

In some ways I hate these threads. Not just due to the horror they brinng to light, but the emotions run so high. It makes me forget things like:

If there is an investigation . I hope its carried out with everyones best interest at heart .
IF it is found that the parents were obviously negligent . Then i say let em fry.
But i think we should wait till the investigation is over to "push the plunger"

I agree wholeheartedly. Privilege and responsibility are two sides of a coin. One cannot exist without the other.

TheRedneck

This debate can easily dive deeper into another thread here about government mandated Flu shots. I have never benn more sick than after the two only flu shots I've had. I personally do not want my child to have to deal with that. I am 35 years old and have had the flu maybe 3 or 4 times ever outside of the two flu shots. I'll take my chances with maybe or maybe not catching it naturally. I don't like the idea of giving my child the flu.
See, why should the government be allowed to mandate such things. Same principle in this story.

reply to post by TheRedneck


Thanks for your input.

I'll say this about the above posts.

1. I'm not discounting faith-healing/prayer, but if it is possible, it is not something just anyone can do. As such, those parents might as well have been using voodoo to treat that child. It was superstitious, indeed, fanatical behavior.

To the people who believe in faith-healing, would you rely on prayer to heal your sick child? Or would you get medical help. I really really hope it would be the latter.

I appreciate those parents didn't want their child to die, but their actions led to her death.

2. As a society, America should cover the health care costs of its children. This is civilized behavior. Some might say Christian behavior. It is possible in Canada, UK, France, Germany, Denmark...the list goes on. Why isn't it possible in the USA?





[edit on 27-3-2008 by rizla]

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Diabetes is not curable, it's treatable. Get your facts straight. It can be just as vicious a killer as cancer. Sometimes it goes beyond treatable as well. My uncle and mother are proof of that. I apologize if you think I was belittling you earlier with my "widdle" comment. I wasn't, I was being facetious. Perhaps uncalled for.

Apology accepted, and I should perhaps apologise for my own tone, I've had quite a stressful day.

On topic: I don't think we really need to argue over the semantics. The point is: with human intervention, she would have lived, fact. With "God's" intervention, she died. Fact. I'm not trying to get one over on anyone, I'm not trying to tear down anyone's world, I'm just pointing out what the cold hard truths are, because this is what your world view should reflect.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Agreed that the details were irrelevant, but here is the exact heart of the debate. Whose place was it to determine what was best?

I appreciate the sentiment of your post, but I think blame-placing is a fallacious exercise, at best. There is always a reason for everything.

In this case, it was 100% the parents fault for not taking her to a qualified medical expert. It is that black and white.

If you want to go deeper, it becomes silly. Why did the parents think that it was acceptable? Lack of education. Whose fault is a lack of education? The government. Who put the government where it is now? The people. Where did the people come from? Europe (long answer short: the non-whites did not have power when your government was designed), largely Britain. Whose idea was it to colonise America? The monarch. Where did the Monarch come from? Normandy, France. So it turns out the French are to blame, as I suspected (I realise the Normans were originally raiding Vikings, but I'm happy to let the blame rest with the French).

Jesting aside, you see my point. If blame needs to be placed, it needs to be in the immediate, because the people involved in the welfare of that girl were two adult human beings.

This implies not one, but two rational, thinking people willingly decided to go against the best interests of their child. Surely, after a few weeks, they would have reasoned "hmm, magical well-wishing isn't working this time, perhaps we should try something else?"

I'm sure schooling is mandatory in America, so why weren't their severely sub-normal IQ's spotted? Should they not have recieved practical help and guidance for this, help that did not involve a church?

Okay, perhaps they are mentally disabled or of unsound mind. It actually is the place of the community to speak up. If a retared woman lived next door to me and had managed to sire half a dozen kids, I'd want the local social services to know about it.

Cries of civil liberty fall on deaf ears here, I'm afraid. A government should not oppress it's people, but it should definatly act in the people's best interest, even if they don't know or agree what that best interest is. I'm sure the death of a child is in no-one's interest.

If it means forcing them to seek state-sanctioned medical care when they are on death's doorstep, then that is what it means. Sometimes the people don't always know or want what is best for them, but you never help anyone by being a soft touch. You have to be cruel to be kind, as every parent should know.

Someone earlier actually quoted the woman as saying that the girl might get resurrected! Honestly, what can you say to that? It's like the poor woman in Saudi Arabia who was given a death sentence because she was a witch!

Such unreasonably blind faith is never, ever a method of progress. It will never save anyone, it never has and never will.

My grandmother died, three days after my mother was born, because my zealot family has never believed in anything but the Power of Prayer. Nothing has changed since 1929. They don't believe in public education, home-school their offspring by teaching them the Bible, and STILL don't believe women should excel at anything other than cleaning, cooking, and bringing as many babies into the world as each can, before she dies.

THESE people should be spayed, and any off-spring under 16 should be taken away and put in homes where the adults are sane.

reply to post by depth om


Reminds me of the story about the man who died in a hurricane... He prayed and prayed for god to save him and the water kept rising, a boat came by to offer assistance and he denied it, saying, the lord is going to save me, so the boat left, then a helicopter came and he did the same thing... He ended up drowning and went to heaven where he asked God why he wasn't helped, and God told him, I sent you a boat and a helicopter and you told them to leave...

I wonder how many times those people thought about taking their daughter to the hospital? Probably thought of that a lot, but like the story above did not act... So now God is telling this little girl the same thing... I gave your parents the ability to take you to the hospital, but the didn't..

All our science and medical advancements could be looked at the same way, they should have taken her to the hospital... I agree that these people should be charged and convicted of something...