Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

Originally posted by rizla

Originally posted by Maxmars
I find it amusing that western medicine has such 'extreme fanatical' devotion regarding its 'infallibility.'

While medicine is a repository of great wisdom, it is nonetheless an art. Medicine is 'practiced' just like religion, no?

Comparing medicine to a religion is big big stretch. Certainly there are abuses of it. We all know about the dollar driven drug business and the plethora of drugs that are being given to children. But that is an abuse of medicine, not medicine itself. Medicine saves a lot of lives.

True. I kind went over the edge there. I guess it would be less extreme to say that it was "faith's fault."

The irony I was trying to point out is the fact that while modern medicine literally kills hundreds of thousands of people each year through mismanaged priorities, arrogant abuse of authority, rampant profiteering, and racketeering pharmaceutical interests, it is hailed as the 'shining gem' of western civilization. It is practically promoted to be worshiped as a religion in a very real sense. Prior generations were completely brainwashed regarding the medical profession - if someone is a doctor you don't argue with them, you don't question them, they are superior people and automatically good, and virtually saintly by virtue of their obvious devotion to the well being of their fellow man. Right, I get it.

Though my position is that religious motivations have no place in health care choices such as this one - questioning the 'correctness' of medical practice is akin to declaring yourself a shamanic troglodyte because it's a forgone conclusion that had a PhD had been involved - she would have survived.

There is more than just a semantic reason why Medicine is not considered a science. There is a reason it is said to be 'practiced' and not 'applied.' Why does no one question that they don't 'heal' people, they 'treat' them. I wonder why those poor medical heroes are so plagued by hight malpractice insurance rates? It can't be their own fault, it must be all those petty patients and family members hell bent on fleecing those poor doctors out their hard-earned income with their trivial claims. All those people who have been permanently maimed, had their lives completely destroyed by doctors whose creed is 'there are no guarantees. (another irony there - a call for good "faith") ', or had family members ripped from their lives because of 'prevailing medical wisdom.' need to just lighten up, right?

Sadly, medical spin always seems to predominate. I get a bit perturbed that the presumption is that 'all she needed was a doctor' is used in this argument as a 'nail in a coffin.' because of course, doctors are so god-like in their power to heal.

But, as I feared, I am trodding down a path that may be considered 'not on point.' Forgive me.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by Maxmars]

[edit on 30-3-2008 by Maxmars]

[edit on 30-3-2008 by Maxmars]

The problem with all this is what we have differing points of view.

Those of us who are not religious believe that the child died due to the parents stupidity in praying to something that isn't there/won't help anyway. So you can see how some of us say it's as strange as asking for fairies or to use my example the flying lump of cheese to come save us.

The religious think that praying to God to help is not a stupid thing to do and in this case my have helped. As you are of the belief that something higher than us does exist and can do things to change our lives.

Until God is proven to exist or not exist then I don't think we will ever agree, guess that's just the problem with belief.

note - I know I have lumped all the religious and non-religious viewpoints into two separate groups and I appreciate this isn't entirely the case but I get the feeling this is what the majority will agree with?

Originally posted by cleggy88
The problem with all this is what we have differing points of view.

Those of us who are not religious believe that the child died due to the parents stupidity in praying to something that isn't there/won't help anyway. So you can see how some of us say it's as strange as asking for fairies or to use my example the flying lump of cheese to come save us.

The religious think that praying to God to help is not a stupid thing to do and in this case my have helped. As you are of the belief that something higher than us does exist and can do things to change our lives.

Until God is proven to exist or not exist then I don't think we will ever agree, guess that's just the problem with belief.

note - I know I have lumped all the religious and non-religious viewpoints into two separate groups and I appreciate this isn't entirely the case but I get the feeling this is what the majority will agree with?

I actually agree that "the child died due to the parents stupidity" but their professed faith is not the cause. It was the fact t hat they could convince themselves that medical attention couldn't fit into their God's plan. I suppose this was a belief they developed on their own, but even so, the arrogance of that belief is no different than the arrogance evident in stating that a doctor would have saved her.

Faith in a doctor can be (can - not is) as illogical as faith in a god - unless of course you ask a doctor. Next time you suffer a condition that leads you to the doors of a doctor, just ask him or her to cure you - see what answer you get - it won't be 'sure thing.' I can promise you that.

Nevertheless, it's a semantic objection that I am compelled to pursue because to ignore it is to tacitly accept that our 'doctors' represent our only avenue of treatment for illnesses. (I can't go there - they've messed up too many times in too many large-scale ways to grant them that kind of tacit approval.)

By the way - you can not 'prove God exists' anymore than you can 'prove God does not exist.' That is what makes it a faith issue. If it were provable faith would not enter into the debate at all.

Although it is a shame that this young girl had to die because of a condition that is easily treatable, I would have to agree that modern medicine is not all it's cracked up to be. I say this as a nurse of 10 years, and also a diabetic, which if I'm not mistaken this girl was right? Diabetes is a weird disease, there is no rhyme or reason to it. For the most part we consider it a slow progressive disease, however I knew a man once who died in less then 30 days from it, and he didn't even know he had it. He was 36 years old, and when the autopsy was performed they found that he had gone into ketone acidosis (sp) and the corners report labled his death as "Sudden onset of type two diabetes". I haven't had a chance to read the article about this case, but I really think it's important to refrain from judging without knowing ppl.

We don't know what her parents were thinking or feeling at the time they prayed over her, and the news can't be trusted to give all the facts, their motive is sensationalism to sell the story. there's so many variables to be considered in a case like this. Economic status, emotional wellbeing, lack of trust in current medicine, and yes even religious belief. Before you discount that please understand that even in modern medicine our goal is Homeostasis, the healing of BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. Faith is just as important in that process as medicine is.

I'm not Christian, and as a parent I would have been searching the four corners of the earth to get my child help, but then I'm not in their shoes and don't know what they faced in the hour of their childs death, and neither were any of you.

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by cleggy88
The problem with all this is what we have differing points of view.

Those of us who are not religious believe that the child died due to the parents stupidity in praying to something that isn't there/won't help anyway. So you can see how some of us say it's as strange as asking for fairies or to use my example the flying lump of cheese to come save us.

The religious think that praying to God to help is not a stupid thing to do and in this case my have helped. As you are of the belief that something higher than us does exist and can do things to change our lives.

Until God is proven to exist or not exist then I don't think we will ever agree, guess that's just the problem with belief.

note - I know I have lumped all the religious and non-religious viewpoints into two separate groups and I appreciate this isn't entirely the case but I get the feeling this is what the majority will agree with?

I actually agree that "the child died due to the parents stupidity" but their professed faith is not the cause. It was the fact t hat they could convince themselves that medical attention couldn't fit into their God's plan. I suppose this was a belief they developed on their own, but even so, the arrogance of that belief is no different than the arrogance evident in stating that a doctor would have saved her.

Faith in a doctor can be (can - not is) as illogical as faith in a god - unless of course you ask a doctor. Next time you suffer a condition that leads you to the doors of a doctor, just ask him or her to cure you - see what answer you get - it won't be 'sure thing.' I can promise you that.

Nevertheless, it's a semantic objection that I am compelled to pursue because to ignore it is to tacitly accept that our 'doctors' represent our only avenue of treatment for illnesses. (I can't go there - they've messed up too many times in too many large-scale ways to grant them that kind of tacit approval.)

By the way - you can not 'prove God exists' anymore than you can 'prove God does not exist.' That is what makes it a faith issue. If it were provable faith would not enter into the debate at all.

I agree entirely that medical science isn't all it's cracked up to be, but from the point of things we can actually prove, its more effective than praying.

I also agree that we can't prove God either way, just like we can't prove the flying lump of cheese or the purple elephant that sits on my shoulder or the penguin that lives in my pocket who tells me I can fly. That shouldn't make it an excuse for letting another human being die.

Like I said before, one person thinking unproveable things makes them delusional, a big group of people makes it religion. The only difference being Christianity follows a 2000 year old book.

Not sure if I am 100% correct on this one, but didn't the egyptians have cat goddess? If I were in the exact same situation as this and I said I was praying to my cat to save her because I have the same viewpoint as the Egyptians, would they not lock me up?

People can be such idiots.

Back in the winter of the late 80s a religious guy named Raleigh Oliver from Chicago came up to Milwaukee to visit his nephew and wife to see there new baby. So the guy goes upon his arrival, he will bless the baby with good health by walking on water.

He drove down to Milwaukee's lake front and walked out on the ice and went ker plunk into lake Michigan never to be seen alive again. So much for god and his divine work.

Than a couple of years ago we have some dude jump into a lions cage at a zoo and proclaim if god exist he will protect him. Yup, a lion leapt upon his victim and mauled him to death. So much for gods divine help.

This is not the first time a parent(s) left there child's life in the hands of god only to have the child die. Humans looking for the mercy from the gods rather than medicine will never learn.

Originally posted by DYepes
Well, I will say if they could have afforded the medical coverage, then yes at least 6 months in jail may help them understand how foolish they were being.

I suppose if they did not have the funds, or if getting the treatment would have put the family under severe financial hardship to the poitn where they barely be able to afford food or something they may have not had another choice.

Frankly though, I think I would have made the financial sacrafice anyways and at least give it a shot, and supplement with prayer as well. These people did not even try?

They could have taken her to the ER for emergency treatment. The ER can't refuse to treat someone just because the person can't pay.

Originally posted by spaznational

Originally posted by DYepes

They could have taken her to the ER for emergency treatment. The ER can't refuse to treat someone just because the person can't pay.

Want to bet? Each city has at least one hospital that takes in indigent ppl. These hospitals are subsidized by the county for that obligation, however, unless the hospital is deligated to this order, it's not required to treat anyone they don't want to. They can and will turn ppl away. If you have no insurance but can prove that you have some means to pay the bill most hospitals will take care of you anyway, or if you have no money but are low income then they know they can get the state funded medical program to pay the bill for you. But they don't have to take care of you. Hospitals are a business their objective as in any business is to make money, if they can't make money off you they will turn you away.

reply to post by cleggy88

note - I know I have lumped all the religious and non-religious viewpoints into two separate groups and I appreciate this isn't entirely the case but I get the feeling this is what the majority will agree with?

A very apt post, and one I cannot help but agree with.

And on a temporarily closing note (since I have to get on the road soon), I am pleased to see that this thread is calmer and more on-topic now. Be back in a couple days.

TheRedneck

Have a safe journey

Originally posted by rizla

Originally posted by Howie47
There have been several scientific studies on prayer. It has been found that it does have an effect. Exactly why some people are saved to have extended lives, here and now; while others die. Is somewhat of a mystery.
We must take it by faith and trust. That it all serves a grander scheme,
then we are capable of comprehending!
Even fundamentalist nuts get cancer and every other disease. They
all don't get healed. They are all dying. So your statement is just not true!

Yeah, those parents took it on faith and trust. Now their kid is dead. Faith-healing and using prayer to sickness is no different to using Voodoo. It's Christianity as a cult.

I suppose they are just as simple minded as you seem to be! Re-read what I wrote. Then your non-connected response.
Real faith has works. It does all it can, in those situations to save a loved one. Nothing is off limits. It is the atheist type of faith. That says,"God you do it all, if your real, show yourself!" God only does that kind of miracle, in a last resort situation; when people really don't have the faith or means, yet they call out on Him to help them.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by Howie47]

Do you have a link to the proof that prayer helps? Would be an interesting read.

reply to post by enchantress62


actually thats only partially correct.

if someone comes in with a life threatening condition or in labor the ER MUST by law at the very least stabilize them. THEN they can send them off to another hospital but if you come in missing an arm and are broke they have to at the very least make sure youre not going to bleed out.


had the parents been broke and taken their comatose little girl in the ER would have to help them.

if she had an infected splinter and they were broke sure they could have sent them away but not if it was anything lifethreatening

reply to post by Damocles


I did wonder, I'm from the UK so know very little about how health insurance in the US works.

It has been said that hospitals are run as businesses, but I cannot imagine that someone brought in with a gunshot wound or something similar would be left bleeding while they checked for that person's health insurance?

It is a business run by human beings after all, and I really doubt that people who have trained for years to have a profession in helping others are going to turn away someone who would die without their help. I know if I was a doctor and someone came in who die without my help, I would help them even if I lost my job as a consequence.

Think we can pretty much rule out not having enough money as a reason why she was not taken to hospital?

Originally posted by cleggy88
Think we can pretty much rule out not having enough money as a reason why she was not taken to hospital?

as far as im concerned we can. i used to work in an ER after my paramedic training and i HAVE seen sick kids come in and their insurance required that their "gatekeeper" be contacted before they were treated for approval and have seen sick kids told to 'go to your dr's office in the morning'. however what that meant was that IF the family decided to seek treatement then the ins company wouldnt pay for it. the ER never turned them away and had they chosen to still be seen we'd have seen them they'd have just had to find a way to pay the bill.

but again, that was NEVER the case in cases where there was imminent danger to the child. (trouble breathing, bleeding etc)

but yeah, the "no money" thing is a little weak, theres always a way and i can attest to this from my own ongoing situation....

[

Originally posted by cleggy88

I agree entirely that medical science isn't all it's cracked up to be, but from the point of things we can actually prove, its more effective than praying.

I also agree that we can't prove God either way, just like we can't prove the flying lump of cheese or the purple elephant that sits on my shoulder or the penguin that lives in my pocket who tells me I can fly. That shouldn't make it an excuse for letting another human being die.

Like I said before, one person thinking unproveable things makes them delusional, a big group of people makes it religion. The only difference being Christianity follows a 2000 year old book.

Not sure if I am 100% correct on this one, but didn't the egyptians have cat goddess? If I were in the exact same situation as this and I said I was praying to my cat to save her because I have the same viewpoint as the Egyptians, would they not lock me up?

Excellent response! I would be foolish to argue that praying is as effective medicine, and I can't say that I would have an easy time equating the validity of one to the other.

I do appreciate your at least granting me that to a very real degree it requires a certain amount of 'faith' to accept that the classic 'doctor' and his bag of pharmaceuticals is the be-all end-all opportunity to be healed. (I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth there - that's what I was alluding to.)

I do object to the characterization of a persons inclination to accept a deity or non-physical spiritual force as a guiding factor in their behavior with 'spaghetti monsters' or such. Even as an opponent in the debate regarding the manifestations of God in a persons life, I would find it hard to present such a flat-out disrespect for a stranger's faith, considering it is the single most personal and internal decision a person can make.

It must be a great disappointment to have one's moral center vaporized in a puff of logic - and I will be very thorough in ensuring that should this happen - the logic is sound and the premises are not as invalid as the faith being nullified.

Another part of what I feel is a misdirected concept in your argument is

That shouldn't make it an excuse for letting another human being die.

The only people contending that their faith is an excuse for the child's death are those on your side of the argument. The concept that because one has faith in God whatever happens is "OK" is your own. All faiths are replete with stories of people questioning events just like this. They all end the same more or less, the moral is usually interpreted to be along the lines of "you're only human and you won't be able to get your head around this" (my gut-check makes me reject religions because of such stances) - in the end the practical application is something along the lines of 'get over it, move on.'

Many have abandoned religion precisely because of this sense of disconnection with 'justice'. I understand the objection to their being a God, but I hesitate to replace it with men.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by Maxmars]

Originally posted by cleggy88
Do you have a link to the proof that prayer helps? Would be an interesting read.

Hundreds of such experiments have been done. Every time one side of this question isn't pleased with the results. They do a new experiment, using their own criteria and scientist for the experiment.
www.med.unc.edu...
All these experiments do show one thing. If you don't like the conclusion,
hireing your own scientist, with a prior commitment to a certain result. Is a very common tactic.

the thing about prayer and health is that to a certain degree the persons mindset can help them fight illness.

if they believe that praying will help then it just may...

its that whole will to live/fight

granted....due to my own battles for the last 6 years ive come to my own conclusions.

1. god exists
2. he's pissed at me for some reason

My heart goes to the girl and the parents too for their blind faith. This must have hit them had too and realised faith must also come with a balance worldly treatment/ solution.
I myself feel praying is great and might accelerate healing but must realise body is still a worldly body. The gift of medical advancement is for us to balancely make use of.
Hopefully the parents dont blame themselve too much and we like themselves can learn from this lesson

Hope this thread is still going next week when I get back, going to the Ukraine to do some charity work with the family. Wish me luck!