Mother calls 911 to save suicidal daughter. Cop arrives, shoots daughter dead.

Originally posted by birchtree
Any man that would circumvent the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as his or her idea to privatize any thing for the good of the US people and their tax dollars is misguided and confused...or a dictator....I need neither one of those controlling my destiny.

Actually it's a state issue, not Federal. Police powers are limited by state constitutions which must be in compliance with the Bill of Rights but are not defined by it. This topic extends further off into the ether of arbitration, public property, etc. No coporatocracy or dictatorship... not really sure where you got that. Just people taking care of themselves rather than the State doing it for them whether they like it or not.

Originally posted by birchtree

they are generally focused on limited government and individual freedom

In a nutshell: anti-authoritarian, pro-personal liberty.

and are repulsed by the idea of socialism and communism.

The thing you're doing is demonizing the terms 'socialism' and 'communism' as sinister byproducts of the soviet union and china. As is all too common. And all to... ignorant. Just as there are different flavors of capitalism i.e commericalism, etc, there are different flavors of socialism, communism. Actually, for all political philosophies.

Denying Ignorance is a healthy cure for that cold.

Making your title Libertarian Socialist somewhat of a contradiction in terms.

Here is a snip from wiki. Of course it doesn't encapsulate my political beliefs in their entirety, and some doesn't reflect it at all, but it gives you a better idea, and shows you have misconceptions about Libertarianism and Socialism and Anarchism:

Wiki @ Libertarian Socialism

Libertarian socialism is a group of political philosophies that aim to create a society without political, economic or social hierarchies – a society in which all violent or coercive institutions would be dissolved, and in their place every person would have free, equal access to tools of information and production, or a society in which such coercive institutions and hierarchies were drastically reduced in scope.

This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions and private property[2], in order that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole. Libertarian socialism also constitutes a tendency of thought that informs the identification, criticism and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of social life. Accordingly libertarian socialists believe that “the exercise of power in any institutionalized form – whether economic, political, religious, or sexual – brutalizes both the wielder of power and the one over whom it is exercised.”[3]

While many varieties of socialism emphasize the role of the state or political party in promoting liberty and social justice, libertarian socialists place their hopes in trade unions, workers' councils, municipalities, citizens' assemblies, and other non-bureaucratic, decentralized means of action.[4] Most libertarian socialists advocate doing away with the state altogether, seeing it as a bulwark of capitalist class rule.[5]

Political philosophies commonly described as libertarian socialist include: many varieties of anarchism (including anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism[6] and some forms of individualist anarchism[7]), mutualism, social ecology,[8] and council communism[9] (or even communism itself, as it is described by Karl Marx or Lenin in a further stage of development of socialism). The terms anarchist communism and libertarian communism should not be considered synonyms for libertarian socialism. Some scholars use libertarian socialism synonymously with anarchism.

And..

Libertarian socialists assert that when power is exercised, as exemplified by the economic, social, or physical dominance of one individual over another, the burden of proof is always on the authoritarian to justify their action as legitimate when taken against its effect of narrowing the scope of human freedom.[19] Typical examples of legitimate exercise of power would include the use of physical force to rescue someone from being injured by an oncoming vehicle, or self-defence. Libertarian socialists typically oppose rigid and stratified structures of authority, be they political, economic, or social.[20]

Additional reading, the first crap I googled up:

world.std.com...
flag.blackened.net...

Although overseas Libertarianism has a almost seperate viewpoint from that in America and subscribes to leftist anarchism, when speaking of Libertarianism here in America it ususally causes libertarian alarm when mentioning socialism and anarchy. So before you start accusing someone about what they don't know maybe you should take a closer look at yourself.

Then be alarmed because I was refering to the "leftist" side of libertarianism. My political/social beliefs do closely resemble anarchism. I am sorry if that alarms you. I believe in personal liberty for you and your family as well, something to consider.

I have researched these political philosophies for many years. Don't tell me to take a closer look when you don't know me, and you havn't even done so yourself (at least on the "leftist" side of Libertarianism). I am not telling you to go back to the police academy...

[edit on 033131p://24u05 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


LL I won't comment on whether your left, right, etc....nor do I care about your political stance...your choice to make.. BUT

To insist on shooting someone in an arm, leg, etc....sorry my friend..unrealisitic and hollywood! Keep watching movies and tv where that stuff does happen. I aim to stop a threat, not take a chance! I understand your baton theory and depending on the weapon and room to swing and do all that, sure I'm on board...but I'm guessing you have NEVER had anyone attack you with intention to kill you or severly injure you...so you have no idea the stress, adrenaline rush, and fear that overcomes your motor skills within fractions of a second..then to decide which action to take, etc...all to be made in less time then it takes you to blink twice. Its easy from a couch, computer chair, or laying in bed to say what SHOULD of been done.....

So as much as I agree that its great to find different ways to stop threats...its not always possible...and far fetched ideas like shoot to wound will be left up to PAID ACTORS where there can be 2-3-4 takes to get it just right!

Originally posted by rcwj75
LL I won't comment on whether your left, right, etc....nor do I care about your political stance...your choice to make..

I am a Libertarian Socialist

I should have said, I am going to respond to your other points and questions, sorry if it looked like I was skipping it. I am just limited for time at the moment as I am tending my gardens right now. I will later though.

**edit oops, I responded to this one thinking it was from birchtree. my mistake and apology

**edited to add: there are points I want to address of yours however, and will in just a bit.

[edit on 073131p://24u23 by Lucid Lunacy]

For more clearification on me real quick...

Originally posted by rcwj75

but I'm guessing you have NEVER had anyone attack you with intention to kill you or severly injure you...

No need to guess or make assumptions. You can just ask

I have never had anyone shoot or directly tell me they were going to kill me no.

I have been stabbed.
I have been held up at gunpoint.
I have been mugged by a gang. (who claimed to be Hell's Angels, heh)

so you have no idea the stress, adrenaline rush, and fear that overcomes your motor skills within fractions of a second..then to decide which action to take, etc...

I have been attacked by batons and knives for about 6+ years now. And on a regular training basis. I am a nationally competitive eskrimador. I use sticks, knives, and similar. It's all weapons-based. In fact, in case you missed it, I have aided in teaching police officers on baton use in the Sacramento, Ca areas.

I am very familar with the fear, adrenaline rushes, and its effect on motor skills. This is where training comes in. For me and the Police.

I think you missed the part of my post where I addressed the fact the cop had enough time to repeatedly tell the girl to put the knife down and not to advance him. I'll include that when I respond to your previous post though, after I am done gardening.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
No need to guess or make assumptions. You can just ask

Fair Enough

I have never had anyone shoot or directly tell me they were going to kill me no.

I have...NOT FUN...and will gladly take the below scenerios then being shot at again...

I have been stabbed.
I have been held up at gunpoint.
I have been mugged by a gang. (who claimed to be Hell's Angels, heh)

I'm guessing this is what promted you to take Martial Arts training?

I have been attacked by batons and knives for about 6+ years now. And on a regular training basis. I am a nationally competitive eskrimador. I use sticks, knives, and similar. It's all weapons-based. In fact, in case you missed it, I have aided in teaching police officers on baton use in the Sacramento, Ca areas.

I am very familar with the fear, adrenaline rushes, and its effect on motor skills. This is where training comes in. For me and the Police.

I have been training H2H combat since 1995, have 4 black belts in 4 diciplines thanks to the Army and my LE careers...and there is one FATAL flaw that many overlook...and the main reason I don't rely on martial arts as the bottom line answer in a lot of situations. Reason...when people like you and I train, we train hard and for all sorts of scenerios...etc... We train to be in shape and defeat others. The confidence and all that blah blah blah....BUT we also train for predetermined moves and actions. I have seen with my own eyes a street fighter...plain bare knuckles go balls to the wall no form no fancy fighter WHOOP a master of Muay Thai/Clinch fighting..why because he was used to in house training..where the people he trained with used form and he based his moves off of predetermination...like MOST martial arts...then he got this guy...no form, no way to read his moves, no way to predetermine his actions based on being trained just like everyone else...and it cost him.

So yes, we as LEO train, some of us WAY more then others...but on the street the actions of the suspect are almost NEVER like that of training. Much more wild, out of control and the mental factor of "DONT CARE WHAT HAPPENS" is VERY dangerous...as you should know. He who has NOTHING to lose is the most dangerous man or women in the world...no matter the training or size!

I think you missed the part of my post where I addressed the fact the cop had enough time to repeatedly tell the girl to put the knife down and not to advance him. I'll include that when I respond to your previous post though, after I am done gardening.

I did..and for that I apologize...and by reading it now I again understand your theory...and MAYBE some of us would have been capable of doing things differently...but not all of us are the same. So just like some of your students...some can do XYZ and others have to rely on ABC...its just the way it is....

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


First of all LL I am not demonizing anything in the post I sent to you. I am saying to you what libertarians think. I never said that was my opinion. Nor will I get into that.

You sure are angry, do you feel as if I am personally attacking you. I think you do. So I am not going to respond to you.

I was having a debate with you on the thread, you attacked my knowledge of what it is to be a libertarian, I responded to you showing what the base for libertarian beliefs are. and you can wiki me all day the term libetarian socialist, to me is a contradiction in terms.

I am a constitutional patriot, but I beleive a little socialist health care or tax return on peoples health would be nice. So don't tell me what I demonize. I HAVE NO HOSTILITY TO YOU LETS JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT!

Originally posted by birchtree
You sure are angry, do you feel as if I am personally attacking you. I think you do. So I am not going to respond to you.

Nope.

Not angry or heated at all. In fact, it is very well known amongst people that know me that I have a very calm and cool composure, and very little get's me aggrivated. No this perception can be blamed wholly on the limitations of electronic communication.

For instance, the cops on ATS seem quite cold, aggressive, and not very compassionate. You guys seem to convey a pack-rat mob mentality. See, electronic limitations. no?

But okay, you asked for an end to this discussion. I won't respond to the earlier points as I said I would. Over and out patriot.

[edit on 073131p://24u47 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by apc


I do not need a law lesson I know how it works APC. The problem is when you start letting somebody contract your (whatever you want to call it) Police Force, security guard. You say that what they will make a contract that is suitable to the publics need. So where does the law fit into that.
Do you get rid of the law that already exists and replace it with the law that that particular area wants? What if they want in their contract that it is ok...say to traffic drugs
What I am saying here is what you are talking about is far more lengthy and costly and involves more then you think it does.
Also by setting up these contracts who do you think is going to move into them.Corporations. You dont think so.

This same idea was started in the late 80's to privatize Prisons. What happened with that. You know what happened. A bunch of BS that is the same thing that will evolve from the idea you are mentioning here.

What you need is reform. What you need is Officers that are there to help people first. The set up we have now is not bad. It just needs officers that are going to focus on people, not busting people. Unfortunately It is hard to do in certain areas where cops can not even stop the crime that is happening in their area.. We need to look at criminals who refuse to restrain themselves.

You can have all the beliefs you want, and hey I love hearing them, but if we are going to talk about this stuff in a realistic notion do you think the US is going to privatize a police force? If so Where are the forces going to get their police? (Poice Academies) Do you really think it is going to cost less? What legitimacy will these charters or contracts have versus the constitution.......and dont come with that the government has nothing to do with it. States still receive money for following federal guidelines and if the state does not then they dont get their money. You can say what you want but with the exception of the little here and theres in the misdemeanor world, felony is federal and federal is the government.

I do not disagree with every thing you say by far I hear what you are saying. But realistic wise I am not seeing it.

lesson to take away from this story:

When you have a problem, do NOT call the police. They will make your problem much, much worse.

As horrible as that advice sounds, I know lots and lots of people that have been following that as a way of life for generations upon generations.

edit: to be clear - i know many police personally (including more than a handful of local deputies). And no, not in a bad way, ha. I know them from community functions and the like, not from encounters.

Not all cops are bad, of course not! But... chances are, if you call one to a situation that is out of hand, it will be escalated even more, and people are going to jail. The police rarely come, calm everyone down and then just leave. That's the point I'm trying to make. And I was trying to follow up by saying I know literally generations of people that would never call the police, regardless of what the situation was.

[edit on 24-3-2008 by scientist]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stopping by to say hello and thanks to all who have contributed to this
thread to this date. I'm a bit suprised by the number of replies so far.

I've been too busy with work to be here much to respond to all the thoughts that have been brought up. Give me a couple of days to get back into the swing of things.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Badge01
The police may be behaving as they have all along, but with the media shedding light on storys like this is it now not the time to do something about if before any of us find ourselves in the same situation?


jimmyx
I understand your ideas of what is going on. What are we susposed to do about it? Just sit back and hope for the best?

rcwj75

I vote you all start a petition to congress to do away with police.

The ME found that the 3 shots trajectories and distance were all the same!!!! Hmmmmm INTERSTING fact left out of all posts and all media outlets except ONE!!! Wonder why???????

Let's skip getting rid of the police. Let's go to the top and get rid of the US government. With a clean slate we can do something worthwhile for the peoples of North America.

Per the ME's report, should we trust them? Aren't they part of the same organization we call the government?

birchtree
As well put as your posting is I do want to mention that the writings here are individuals opinions from various walks, lives, and locations around the world. I don't see most of the world taking up arms against the police officer in question in this tread. Most replies here are from those who are looking at this story with their own feelings as to how to respond with limited information on the shooting.

7. For this being an open minded forum. You people do not give much thought to what you were not even there for. Jump on the anti cop band wagon without even thinking what if that were me.

apc

Udder chaos? I have an image in my head of an army of cows stampeding through town spraying everyone with milk. MOooOOooOOooooOOOO!!!

Truely a scary thought
Sure that wasnt' in an epsidoe of X-Files?

Threadfall
None of us was there. All we will ever be able to do is second guess the police officer's actions. Who knows, maybe one day all police officers will be required to carry video cameras on there person while on duty.

Solarskye

The mother calling the police was not her best option evidently. No police officer is gonna react the same in that situation.

Thank you for your reply. It's my understanding that the mother called 911 asking for an ambulance not for a police officer. Perhaps the officer being there caused the daughter to react much differently than she would have to an EMS crew.

jprophet420

ill give you a gun and then come at you with a strait edge, and well see if you keep your beliefs.

Then there is the whole question of if the daughter had the razor in her had at the time of the shooting. Yes, according to the cop. No, according to the mother.

Originally posted by Sanity Lost
Let's skip getting rid of the police. Let's go to the top and get rid of the US government. With a clean slate we can do something worthwhile for the peoples of North America.

Per the ME's report, should we trust them? Aren't they part of the same organization we call the government?

I'm game with you to overthrow this crapy government and start over the way its meant to be.

As for the ME's...I trust them. They aren't going to risk their HUGE salary, education, etc for a cop or two, or some joe schmo. I have been in a trial with these guys...they are professional...the ones I delt with couldn't care less who did what...they worried about HOW it happened. Whoever took the fall was of their own doing. They give facts and thats it.

Could one of them be on the take, or lie, etc...of course....just like anyone else...but I'm thinking that % is almost non exsistant...

This is a classic case of death by cop. Suicidal people sometimes do this knowing what police would do in these situations. Point a gun at a cop your dead pull a knife on a cop your dead. If your truly suicidal and have a hard time doing yourself in this is one thing that some people choose.

It's hard on all involved, Someone though that is bent on killing themselves will do so.

Originally posted by whatukno
This is a classic case of death by cop. Suicidal people sometimes do this knowing what police would do in these situations. Point a gun at a cop your dead pull a knife on a cop your dead. If your truly suicidal and have a hard time doing yourself in this is one thing that some people choose.

Yeah it could very easily be a 'death by cop' situation. Doesn't change my position in that he could have aimed for a non-vital area such as the leg, an even easier target to hit.

Another point that may or may not affect the 'death by cop' idea, is that it was the mom that placed the call and not the women that died.

he could have, it would be going against his training to do so, If he believed that it was a life threatening situation after all he did repeatedly tell her to drop the knife and she did not comply.

This cop went into self preservation mode and did what he thought was justified. Yes he could have shot her in a non vital area, perhaps missing and she could have killed him. Depending on how fast she was advancing on him.

Lucid Lunacy

Another point that may or may not affect the 'death by cop' idea, is that it was the mom that placed the call and not the women that died.

Thank you for reminding us of this point. The mother called for an ambulance. Why was no ambulace sent until the cop called for one after the shooting then?

Originally posted by whatukno
he could have, it would be going against his training to do so, If he believed that it was a life threatening situation after all he did repeatedly tell her to drop the knife and she did not comply.

Yeah I know it goes against his training. I am targeting the policy more then I am this specific cop. If he had shot her in the leg, and there was plenty of time obviously, that would have taken away the life-threatening aspect of it. If she had a gun it would be totally different, but she had a knife. A gun shot to the leg would have rendered her practically immobile. He cold have easily cuffed her after that. And she would have lived.

All that aside. I really feel for the mom too. She called the cops because she was worried about her daughter killing herself. Sucks. I hope the mom doesn't blame herself. I know mine would in that situation

This cop went into self preservation mode and did what he thought was justified. Yes he could have shot her in a non vital area, perhaps missing and she could have killed him. Depending on how fast she was advancing on him.

Well thing is the leg is really an even bigger target then the head. It's at the very least just as easy of a target as the head.

As for enough time. Well he had enough time to aim and hit her head. Same for the leg then.

The article said the cop asked her to repeatedly drop the knife and told her many times to not advance. So that implies the cop had time.

[edit on 113131p://30u58 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Sanity Lost
Lucid Lunacy

Another point that may or may not affect the 'death by cop' idea, is that it was the mom that placed the call and not the women that died.

Thank you for reminding us of this point. The mother called for an ambulance. Why was no ambulace sent until the cop called for one after the shooting then?

Hmm I am not sure. Maybe that's also part of some sort of policy in response to suicides? Cop first, ambulance second? She wasn't dying when the mom placed the call afterall. Maybe they caught wind that she was armed with a knife?

Either way I think an ambulance should have been sent along with the cop.

reply to post by Sanity Lost


Ambulance WILL NOT come to a residence with a threat. Think about it...the people coming to save/give aid entering a house where the deranged woman might hurt them. So now you have the MEDICAL people needing medical attention too...

EMS will always wait for a scene to be safe/secure before making entry...even if they were the first ones there...and they heard the screaming or saw her with a blade...they would call guess who? THE COPS to come disarm her or the situation. THEN render aid...