The God Makers - Mormon Conspiracy

reply to post by DragonsDemesne

I've got a feeling that no one will listen, given the kind of baited arguments taking place here, but Ed Decker, the guy who made Godmakers, was a Mormon excommunicated for adultery. Therefore, he has a rather large axe to grind. Decker also makes no distinction between fundamentalist Mormons and mainstream Mormons, and mixes them up at will, along with out of context quotes and exaggerations, plus a few points that are just plain made up.

I said something similar earlier;those who leave a faith will usually only have bad things to say about it.

The vast majority of people mix up the different Mormon faiths....actually,i think most people believe there is only one Mormon faith!
And all they ever ask about is polygamy,probably because thats what the anti-Mormon sites usually go on about it constantly.

If only people would study the modern LDS church as well as its past....

In the book of Micah it states that a ruler of Israel will come from Beth-lehem Ephratah.There is no indication that this ruler would be of divine origin.

Are you even a Mormon? I thought you believed in Jesus Christ?
So

As for the line from Alma 7:10,i was giving you a chance to research,how silly of me.
The Jerusalem mentioned is not a city,as is seen in the full quote,

10 And behold,he shall be born of Mary,at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers,she being a virgin,a precious and chosen vessel,who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost,and bring forth a son,yea,even the Son of God.

And how does the land of our forefathers help any? It doesn't. It says he was born in Jerusalem. It contradicts accepted Bible cannon .It's wrong. Mormon apologists can try to wiggle around it, but it is just a glaring error. You have even resorted to trying to discredit all scriptures with so called lack of archaeological evidence. Wait untill you hear your own Mormon scholars talk about archaeological evidence.for the Book of Mormon there is ZERO.
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To all:

Look I believe most Mormons are excellent people of high moral fiber. I really do. The first video I posted made me angry but now I think it is sensationalism based on past Mormon abuses. However, those abuses came from the FOUNDERS of the church, so it is at the very core of it. I am sorry to have offended you but I hope you examine the evidence.

I am going to stop posting in this thread because you guys are victims and I do not take any joy in this. You were duped. I am truly sorry. I wish you the best. The truth about the Book of Mormon is out now. It was a big lie. Please look at that DNA video and say a prayer. Jesus knows if you heart is true and he forgives.

Take Care



Mormonism and DNA

[edit on 3/17/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Cuhail

 

I will say most Mormons I've met are very moral and well behaved people. That movie got me kind of riled up. I am not trying to bash them as human beings. However, it is my opinion that Joesph Smith was a con man. The Bible warns against anyone coming with another Gospel.

"As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!(Gal 1:9)

My Brother was a deacon for the Mormon Church in Salt Lake and there are lots of them here in Mesa As. They had brought Mormon Polygamist Warren Jeff’s here for trial recently. Their are a lot of reformations and sub sects of Mormonism. The LDS had finally given in to Government pressure over the polygamy but some didn't want to.

The Mormons carved their own niche in the west and tried very hard to have their own way of life in Utah. They built that state and did everything on their own living their lives on their own terms so to speak.

One of the biggest arguments I used to have with my Brother is the idea of Family going to heaven with gender intact as their earthly body’s had.
This does not make sense since their would no longer be a need for procreation. That doesn't mean however that their would not be something to replace it and what ever that would be It is supposed to be better.

They are very into legalism and for the most part, the Moderator is correct, they live good honest and decent lives. The off shoot Church, not withstanding, if anyone could say they lead by example, it is Mormons and probably Jehovah witnesses. Personally, and Ill add, unfortunately, they are as lost as Atheists for the same reasons Whammy points out.

The Book of Mormon Diametrically opposes what is in the Original Scriptures moreover the authoring of the book is far less as impressive having no artifacts to substantiate their authenticity. You know what’s so Ironic is many of the mainstream Mormons I have talked to have admitted they know it is false but choose to live that way anyway.

They say it works for them, that they work hard their is less crime less drug use. You won't find the kind of smack talk about us from them like you will see with Atheism.

I know you mean well whammy and as a friend I will just say this for what it's worth. Becarefull with them, they aren't your enemy, use your best diplomacy.

These people just want to be left alone; I know they have created a mess for Christianity like Rome did but as you know that too was predicted in the Bible. Having said that, it is WHY the original Bible out shines any other religious book for no Book as done such a bang up job keeping itself as accurate today as it was 1000 years ago.

For a book that is like pulling teeth to read when you first start, it starts reading you and before you know it, that book owns you and you know it.

I have read the tantra, the Iching, Siddhartha, maps of consciousness and nothing but nothing compares to the Bible. I remember the first time I prayed for the Holy Spirit to give me help understanding it, I wanted to know what all it said so badly but none of it made sense.

That day had a profound effect on me, and Ill never forget it.

It not only confirmed prayer works especially when you ask for something the lord wants you to know, but it was the second epiphany I had ever had where you get that weird happy cry high and you can actually feel the symbiotic spirit, flesh and blood host relationship or the lord living inside you.

I think you know what I am talking about as most genuinely saved Christians do. It is when you say OMG and for the first time you realize everything you look at is of God you can "Feel his Voice" it isn't the same as hearing voices in your head it is kind of weird but you know it is him.

If their were a way to articulate it I would but their isn't. One thing I DO know, for all these people who keep asking for proof of his existence, it is out there for anyone seeking him and not the other way around.

The bible is very explicit about that and it was why Jesus didn't seek the approval of Pilot when he asked him to do some parlor tricks. Oh how powerful an experience when you give all that hard to believe Bible a chance by faith and faith alone.

Faith isn't something to be interpreted for the Bible being so far fetched,, you need faith just to believe it.

When the holy spirit came in to me the first thing I felt it say was that Faith is all I needed which is to say Faith,, makes God easier to know, NOT HARDER to believe and I finally got it. All that time I was trying to believe the hard way, that my need to have him proven to me in conventional ways blocked the very paths by which that need could be fulfilled.

Once you feel him living inside you it is a love like no other.

I remember when I had joined the Navy, and my Dad got me up at 4:00 am to take me to the Train Station in downtown Chicago to Great Lakes Naval Base Recruit Training Command. My brothers and sister all woke up to hug me good bye and I kissed my Mom good bye, she hated seeing me go.

I got in the truck and it was one of the only times I had ever seen my Dad cry. He was a tough cop and I could see the shine on his face when ever we went under a street light. We pulled up to the train station, it was real cold. I was the only one waiting for the train that early. When I got on he hugged me and told me to pay attention to whatever they told me and I got on the train.

As the train started pulling away I waved bye to my Dad as he stood out there. I looked again and I couldn't believe it. I could see my Dad waaay back there almost out of sight and he was still waving goodbye.

I started crying and wanted him to go get back in his truck and go.

He waved till he was out of sight.

That was the first time I realized how much my Father loved me. When I asked our heavenly father to come into my heart and live in me, the day I accepted his Son,, It felt just like that day I saw my Dad waving,

Only this time,, he never goes,

out of sight

- Con




[edit on 18-3-2008 by Conspiriology]

The teachings were stolen from freemasonry as well. Cults are so gullible! Why doesnt the world acknowledge hes done so? I mean, he was assasinated right?

The teachings were stolen from freemasonry as well. Cults are so gullible! Why doesnt the world acknowledge hes done so? I mean, he was assasinated right?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I'm gonna reply just in case curiosity brings you back.

Are you even a Mormon? I thought you believed in Jesus Christ?

I am and i do.
I just don't believe that the verse from Micah is a reference to Jesus.

And how does the land of our forefathers help any? It doesn't. It says he was born in Jerusalem.

If you read the links your question will be answered.And it doesn't he was born in Jerusalem which is in the land of our fore fathers.It says he was born in Jerusalem which is the land of our fore fathers.
The term "land of Jerusalem" has been found in,amongst others,the Dead Sea Scrolls & letters to & from Rome.

You have even resorted to trying to discredit all scriptures with so called lack of archaeological evidence.

Do a little research and you'll see that such evidence is being discovered and has been for many decades.

But thats the problem isn't it,people don't research for themselves.They read or watch a couple of things and their minds are made up instantly.
If you are not even willing to look at both sides of the coin maybe in the future you should refrain from such threads as this.

"As we have already said,so now I say again:If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted,let him be eternally condemned!(Gal 1:9)

Paul here is speaking of the gospel of Christ,as mentioned in Gal 1:7.
This means all Christ's/God's teachings.But are they all accepted? No.Just think of all those books banned by the Vatican that have,not only records of Jesus' life,but also teachings He Himself spoke,along with the work of prophets such as Enoch.
And these books have been banned by men,not by divine authority.The Vatican opposes anyone they see as a threat.Why? Because of their faith? Or because they might start to lose all the power,wealth and control they've had for centuries?






[edit on 18-3-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by Conspiriology

The Book of Mormon Diametrically opposes what is in the Original Scriptures moreover the authoring of the book is far less as impressive having no artifacts to substantiate their authenticity. You know what’s so Ironic is many of the mainstream Mormons I have talked to have admitted they know it is false but choose to live that way anyway.

No it doesn't,it opposes what the Catholic church has taught for centuries.As i mentioned earlier all that we believe can be found in the Bible,yet people won't look because they have had the Catholic point of view for so long.

When the holy spirit came in to me the first thing I felt it say was that Faith is all I needed which is to say Faith,, makes God easier to know, NOT HARDER to believe and I finally got it. All that time I was trying to believe the hard way, that my need to have him proven to me in conventional ways blocked the very paths by which that need could be fulfilled.

Yet the Bible clearly states in several verses that though faith is essential what we do is also important.










[edit on 18-3-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Since you are in a “forgiving mood” maybe you would forgive me if I said, “your wife is a lovely woman – too bad she used to be a whore!” I am saying a nice thing about your wife so why would you be offended by that? That part about the whore is just my opinion based on hearsay but I choose to believe it. I can say it all I want and you should just accept it. Or maybe I am trying to tell you who to choose for your wife since I have studied women to a great extent and obviously know more about them then you do. Maybe you have loved your wife for many years and would never leave her but I am here to save you from your folly. I am such a saint but you just can’t see it.

reply to post by itguysrule


If my wife really was a whore, I would be glad I finally found out. And truly I should be angry at the wife not the person who had enough courage to tell me the truth about my wife. Joesph Smith was basically a whore.

For gods sake, save yourself some heartache and get it over with watch this and you will know the truth about your wife...

www.youtube.com...




[edit on 3/18/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by jakyll

All I can say as I am sorry you or your family were suckered by that horrible man Joesph Smith. Do yourself a favor and learn the truth www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Conspiriology


Con, that was such a sweet and heart warming story about your relationship with God and the analogy about your earthly father.

That is also exactly what it is like to have your eyes opened. Before I was a Christian, I would refer to Revelation as 'that acid trip of a Bible book' and laugh at all the 'weirdness' and 'contradictions' in the Bible. To put it mildly, I was belligerent and condescending to believers.

The same thing that you experienced happened to me. I remember the day it happened and where I was sitting. I sat down with a study Bible and prayed that my eyes would be opened and that the Holy Spirit would give me knowledge and wisdom (two gifts from the Holy Spirit as mentioned in the NT). As someone else puts in on ATS, it was like a 'spirit orgasm.'

The things that confused me in the past were wide open now and I understood everything. I remember even saying out loud, "Oh my God. This is real. This is really real."

Although unbelievers may scoff at this, in Isaiah we were told there will be people who read and hear the Word but it might as well be in a foreign language to them. Not because God is cruel and deceitful but because they refuse to open their hearts or understand. However, we are told when you do ask, you will receive and it will be given to you. This is exactly what happens and what happened to me.

It was nothing more than the ramblings of madmen before. Now it is God in text. Yes, it's like that. It's awesome. I'll never, ever forget that day. Then all I wanted was more, more, more. Thus, my adventure into the world of Christian apologetics began.

Originally posted by jakyll



No it doesn't,it opposes what the Catholic church has taught for centuries.As i mentioned earlier all that we believe can be found in the Bible,yet people won't look because they have had the Catholic point of view for so long.

The Bible opposes what the Catholic church teaches for that matter but I have had these debates before and I don't see how pulling me into one when I was willing to stettle for a live and let live condition. If you want Ill be more then happy to debate with you but before I do I have to ask you to one stable datum one standard of truth leaving the book of mormon out of the equation. I think the onus is on you to prove the Book of Mormon has the same status as the Bible. I don't use the Bible when arguing with Atheists because they don't believe it is the word of God. You have agreed that it is.

I don't believe the book of Mormon is so it would be dismissed.

Like most debates where the inductive arguments for logical fallacy are adhered to I would ask that you also agree to the terms of defeat. It takes only one lie to impeach the testimony of a witness in a court of law.

Swearing on the Bible is symbolic of your intent to put forth the same integrity the same honesty as the authors of that book who also believe that God would keep it holy. Having said that and acknowledge I won't refer to the latin vulgate or septuagent, since this is a debate over Christianity I think it should be agreed we should not bear false witness

Do you agree with said terms Mormon?

Yet the Bible clearly states in several verses that though faith is essential what we do is also important.

Albeit true, my works are as filthy rags, and if I try MYSELF I will surely fail but by the grace of God there go I. Do the fruits I bear show my deeds are in question? was their something I didn't "DO"? ? Was their any reason to suggest the addition of deeds that I might be seen as "not good enough" for you ? Was their anything I said in the context for requiring any deeds?

It begs my curiosity Mormon,, it may sound academic but I just got to ask. If you died today, and you stood at the gates of Heaven. If God asked you,,

why should I allow you in the gates of my Heaven,,

what would you say?


- Con














[edit on 18-3-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by Conspiriology


If my reply to you came off as aggressive it was not my intent.

The Bible opposes what the Catholic church teaches for that matter...

True.But its the Catholics who have monopolized Christianity.

I think the onus is on you to prove the Book of Mormon has the same status as the Bible.

Is that something i can prove?
Surely that comes from the reading of the scripture's,you either feel/know its true or you don't.

Although,if you mean more from a historical/archeology i will direct you to someone who can answer better than me;
www.jefflindsay.com...
Which you probably think is a cop out,but it isn't.I just find the site to be very informative and hopefull you'll find it useful.

It begs my curiosity Mormon,, it may sound academic but I just got to ask. If you died today, and you stood at the gates of Heaven. If God asked you,,

why should I allow you in the gates of my Heaven,,

what would you say?

I would,after giving due respect,tell Him that i shouldn't be allowed in because i am still a sinner and i need more time to make amends.



[edit on 18-3-2008 by jakyll]

I would,after giving due respect,tell Him that i shouldn't be allowed in because i am still a sinner and i need more time to make amends.

That's what I thought you would say, it is also the same trap I set for catholics in a 4 move checkmate debate.

Next question,, do you believe in purgatory?

- Con

reply to post by Conspiriology

That's what I thought you would say, it is also the same trap I set for catholics in a 4 move checkmate debate.

Thats coz its true for most.
If i died tomorrow i would use the answer i gave you.If i died in 10yrs time my answer would be different.Hopefully.lol.


What do you mean by purgatory?

Originally posted by jakyll


If I died tomorrow I would use the answer I gave you.If i died in 10yrs time my answer would be different.Hopefully.lol.

I and I'm afraid this is where the Book of Mormon ends and where the bible Begins. In the scenario you gave me,, knowing you are dead whether it is been a day or a week, the fact is YOU are DEAD.

Now,, According to John 3:16 The most famous verse in the Bible and one I am certain you have heard of it says " For God so loved the world that he gave his ONLY begotten son to die that blood ransom to PAY for your sins and that whoever believes on him shall have everlasting life and shall not parish.

Paying your "due" respects albeit polite, you have also condemned yourself in that case asking for more time?

It takes ONE sin to go to hell and of course we have all been guilty of more but the lord can't allow ANY sinners into heaven whether you have one or a thousand and one. I have NO idea how many are written in Gods Book of life next to my name. I have no Idea how many years it takes to work them off or how many good deeds it would take to pay for them or buy them off. I think it's safe to say my friend,, that YOU don't either. If it were true that we could do that,, I am sure the values of each sin would have been given "points" for a system of counting them off, conversely their would be a system of value for each "deed" or act of goodness we can use to finally have the confidence to say at the gates, GOD I should be allowed in because I am GOOD.

But you see, as I said in the previous post,, The Bible is explicit "Your works are as filthy rags for it is not of the good works you have done are ye saved but by grace.

I would also say the entire reason for the Ten Commandments was to show man that he couldn't obey them and that man NEEDED a savior.

If we could live by the law, sending his son in the form of a tempatable flesh and blood man so that God could understand why we had a hard time with that and why Jesus told the father, "Forgive them father, for they know NOT what they do” The understanding was finished and Jesus died for anyone that would ask for it. Their really was no other way.

Jesus had to suffer a painful death. The word "excruciating" was taken from the word crucifixion and is used today to describe extreme pain. Jesus was nailed through the wrists; those nails would go right through the brachial nerve. That's the one you feel when you bump your elbow or "funny bone". Crucifixion was perfected well by the Romans to be the most painful way to a slow death. Your arms would dislocate at the shoulders and elbow. You would be leaned forward so that your weight was pulling down and outward making very difficult for your lungs to exhale. You blood then begin to gather carbon dioxide then acidifies as burn through your veins. Every time Jesus would have to exhale he would have to raise himself up which would rotate the nails around the nerve causing electric like shocks through his arms. This induced a scream of pain while at the same time forcing you back down. The pleura lining between your lungs begins to separate making inhaling extremely painful. The combination of blood loss (approximately 2-3 pints was lost in Jesus) and carbon dioxide raises the threshold of passing out where most people would have, the Romans new what they were doing and the victim would be conscious during 90% of their suffering where gradually or suddenly they would expire.

THAT WAS DONE FOR

YOU.

If you think you can do any better then that even when you DON'T even deserve it BUT DO IT FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES (YOU) then I am afraid what you just told God at the gates could be only taken

As an insult.

I realize doing good is important but between the two, asking for gods son or being good. I think I have already proven, you are already doomed by your own testimony.

This is the what you are not getting from the Mormon Book or its Doctrine.

Being saved isn't an excuse to be bad,, we already are as you have illustrated. NO ONE is RIGHTEUOUS NO NOT ONE and ALL have fallen short. It does not say all but Mormons or all but good people for it is THE GIFT of God. If I give you something,, say A gift, it is YOURS and I can not tell you what to do with it. It belongs to you.

You have accepted it first and if you had to earn it,, then it wouldn't be a gif would it?

Now I believe you and I had this discussion for a reason. I believe the lord loves you so much he suffered that death I spoke of.

I also believe you are a good guy probably a hell of a lot nicer then I am lol. (Shut up Ashley and whammy lol) I think you are missing something in your spiritual life and you may not know what that is but you know you don't have it. I would suggest that you'll never be able to buy off your sins. I don't think you will get a chance to either.

I do know this, if you pray to have Jesus come into your life and navigate for you the way of a good Christian life. You will find he does it much better then you and the good deeds stuff???

That comes easier as long as you don't take the wheel.

I don't think it's important to attack your book and rather then do that I think if you did what I am suggesting,, Ill let the lord tell you to throw that book away. I think the lord has a call for you, and no one like a Mormon can lead other Mormons to the lord

For the first time

His way.

- Con

By the way,, I want you to know I like mormons I don't think I have ever met a mormon I didn't like. I hope you consider seriously what I have said because it is obvious to me you haven't taken that step.

If you have,, then next time someone asks you what you would say to God when he ask you why I should allow you in the gates of my heaven.

You can tell em because your son invited me if I accepted the invitation

Or you can just tell em.

Jesus sent ya

lol


Warm Regards

- Con

reply to post by Conspiriology

I realize doing good is important but between the two, asking for gods son or being good. I think I have already proven, you are already doomed by your own testimony.

Not really.
The Bible tells us that we can become perfect like Christ,faith in him gives us that oppertunity therefore we too can live without sin.


I personally,even though i have repented,do not feel like my sins have been forgiven,God may see things differently.

If you think you can do any better then that even when you DON'T even deserve it BUT DO IT FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES (YOU) then I am afraid what you just told God at the gates could be only taken

As an insult.

Telling God you don't think you're worthy enough to spend eternity with Him is an insult
I'm not comparing myself with Jesus here,we all have our own cross to bear and each is a different weight to anothers,and we can carry that weight if we believe etc.

I also believe you are a good guy probably a hell of a lot nicer then I am lol. (Shut up Ashley and whammy lol) I think you are missing something in your spiritual life and you may not know what that is but you know you don't have it. I would suggest that you'll never be able to buy off your sins. I don't think you will get a chance to either.

Well,good gal not guy.lol.
Trying to live like Jesus is not a way of buying off your sins,its a way of showing God your love & obedience.Jesus tells us himself to become like Him!

Ill let the lord tell you to throw that book away. I think the lord has a call for you, and no one like a Mormon can lead other Mormons to the lord

When i asked God,i got a different answer.

By the way,, I want you to know I like mormons I don't think I have ever met a mormon I didn't like.

Lol,no worries mate.Its possible to like someone but not believe in their faith.

Telling God you don't think you're worthy enough to spend eternity with Him is an insult ?

Telling Jesus the cross is not sufficient is a terrible insult. That's what you are doing. It's like saying, "Well Jesus I know you suffered and died for me but - ya know - I just don't think it was quite enough, I'll do it my way."

[edit on 3/18/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are we not "saved by grace alone lest any man should boast"? Because one man might do better works than another and claim "better" or "more" forgiveness, or someone that does excellent works could claim they have the ONLY forgiveness.

Our works are to show that we do indeed have Christ in our hearts which makes us want to do good works, and our works are a reflection of our faith.