The God Makers - Mormon Conspiracy, page 5
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reply posted on 18-3-2008 @ 10:51 PM by Bigwhammy
reply to post by idle_rocker


That's right Rocker


Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 06:05 AM by tamerlane
May God bless you all who are believers in the one true God. I believe we hold more in common than we have differences.

That being said, there was a criticism of the Book of Mormon that has been poorly addressed and I would like to give it some attention.

A fatal error was pointed out wherein in Alma 7:10 it is stated that Jesus "shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers." You don't even have to do any research to know that this is incorrect and therefore the Book of Mormon is a false book right?

In actuality, what seems to be a grave error is in fact supporting evidence that the Book of Mormon was not the invention of Joseph Smith.

So where was Jesus born? Duh, Bethlehem. Any child can tell you that or any person at all whether they have ever cracked open a Bible or not. Whether they even believe in him or not. If they know anything about the life of Jesus it is the story of his birth, right? Bethlehem, star, wisemen, shepherds, etc.

Therefore, being that Joseph Smith was born in early 19th century America in a strongly Protestant christian society to a family that attended church diligently and read the Bible at home on a daily basis, is it conceivable that he really did not know where Jesus was born? He surely knew as well as anyone. How then could he have made such an obvious error and yet have gotten so many other obscure details correct about Middle Eastern geography and customs that weren't known to the general population of 19th century America? If he were making it up, then he would have written "born in Bethlehem" or he else he would be revealing himself as a fraud to a Bible-reading public.

As a matter of fact, the usage of the phrase "land of Jerusalem" is consistent with Biblical and ancient Middle Eastern usage. El Amarna letter #287 states:
a town of the land of Jerusalem, Bit-Lahmi [Bethlehem] by name, a town belonging to the king, has gone over to the side of the people of Keilah.

James B. Pritchard, editor, Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, 3d ed. (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1969), 489, translation by W. F. Albright and George E. Mendenhall

In the ancient world, a city also dominated a certain territory around it. For example, in I Chron. 6:55-56 there is a reference to Hebron and "the fields of the city, and the villages thereof" showing that multiple smaller towns were included in the territory or "land of" Hebron. There are multiple references to "cities with their villages" in the assignment of lands to the tribes under Joshua. For example "Megiddo and her towns" (Josh. 17:11) and "Heshbon and all her cities" (Josh 13:17) to name two of dozens. By stating "at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers" it is clear that Alma (the speaker in this passage) is referring to a region or territory and not simply the city.

This criticism has accompanied the Book of Mormon from the beginning because referring to an area by it's principal city was not and is still not in common usage. It is therefore a reason to believe that the Book of Mormon was not 19th century literature as critics claim.

I know that those who are already convinced that the Book of Mormon is fraudulent will not be affected by this explanation. It is more for those who may be curious about the Book of Mormon and who could be turned off of examining it by such an "obvious" error.

I personally do not believe that the Presidents of the LDS (Mormon) church are as inspired as most Mormons do, and therefore I do not accept some of the more unusual doctrines (mostly stemming from Brigham Young). However, study and prayer has brought me a witness from the Spirit that the Book of Mormon contains writings from holy prophets who communed anciently with Jehovah. These writings were translated in 1829 with divine assistance. I would like to invite any and all to read it and decide for yourself.


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 07:53 AM by jakyll
reply to post by Bigwhammy




Telling Jesus the cross is not sufficient is a terrible insult. That's what you are doing. It's like saying, "Well Jesus I know you suffered and died for me but - ya know - I just don't think it was quite enough, I'll do it my way."



Is it not a bigger insult to lie to God?
Is it not worse to say that you a worthy to go to Heaven when he knows that it isn't true?


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 08:07 AM by enchantress62
I do believe that in the Bible God says "Judge not, lest you be judged." I think it's important when looking at another religion, that you may not understand, to study with an open mind. If the intent here is to look at the Mormon religion in an attempt to discredit them as Christians then I would ask you, when did God give you the power to say who's a Christian and who isn't? Don't get me wrong, I'm surrounded by Mormon's and when asked they don't claim to be Christians, they always say "No, I'm a member of the "Church of Jesus Christ's and later day saints."

I know nothing about the Mormon religion, never had an interest in looking into it but Christians of all ppl should not go around digging up trash about anyone else in an attempt to show everyone that their faith is bad! Why? Because your God tells you not to.

Bigwhammy, how many times have you tried to tell those of us, who are not Christians, about your views, and felt attacked, dishonored, and ignored? How many times have you heard judgement from Non Christians about your views and had ppl throw up radical self proclaimed Christians in your face and say, "See, you guys are bad!" I can't remember if this old cliche is from the Bible or not, but it still has marret. "Judge not until you've walked a mile in the other mans shoes" something like that. Anyway, I did watch your video link, it's interesting and yes a bit scary, but not as much as some of the stuff I've read about Scientology lately.

Funny, none of these groups ever approachs me. I live in a place that is crawling with Mormons, Johova Witnesses, and a few other interesting religious groups and none of them come to my door. I wonder if it's the Wolfsbane I have hanging there?


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 08:55 AM by jakyll
reply to post by tamerlane


Good post.



Now,coz its always worth another try,i will again invite those that want answers to look at this site,jefflindsay.com
It talks about all those things that people believe there is no reply to such as,DNA,place names,the Americas,animals,language,building materials etc,etc.It also contains links to many other sites.




[edit on 19-3-2008 by jakyll]


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 09:56 AM by Jadette
Three words:

Book of Abraham. Enough said.

How anyone could still be a Mormon after this, I do not know.

In 1825, some papryi with egyptian hieroglyphics were brought to the Mormons. Joseph Smith looked at them and declared that one of them were the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt.

No one in those days could translate hieroglyphics, so there was no way to verify if what Joseph Smith was saying was true.

He copied the drawings in the documents, and later, Egyptologists told them that these drawings did not depict what the Joseph Smith said that they did. But by then the papyri were lost, so there was no way to verify the drawings, or the original hieroglyphics.

In 1966 they found the original Papryi. And translated them. See for yourself. Joseph Smith said that one said this:

"In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1)


When in reality, it translated to:

"Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."


Oh sure. There's all sorts of arguments from the Church to try to validate this. But in the end, if you claim that the unreadable pictures on some ancient piece of paper say something, and then someone learns to read them and they DON'T SAY what you said they did, then you don't have a lot of ground to stand on.


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 12:18 PM by siouxm
I did not read this entire thread. I got the jist of it and decided to post.

I am a woman. I was raised in the LDS church (Mormon). I left the church - and all religion - 15 years ago because it could not stand up to what it claimed to be: the one and only true church on the face of the earth.

The idea of who is and who is not a christian is a man made idea that was decided by a group of men in the 3rd century (Nicene creed) when they needed to have greater control over the new and growing christian religion.

LDS folk believe in, follow, worship, and adore the figure Jesus Christ. They are very much christian, they simply do not agree with the Nicene Creed.

The standard LDS member is a good person. They are honorable, law-abiding, family centered people. What goes on behind the curtain is irrelevant to them in their daily lives. The vast majority have no idea of the church history, let alone anything much deeper than what is spoken of over the pulpit. That is not confined to the LDS religion, that is true for all relgions.

All religions have yucky stuff in the past, and all religions have gone to great lengths to hide the yucky stuff by covering it up with new, enlightened, modern ideas.

They are not right, you are not right.

Posting trash like the God Makers as truth does not shine well for the OP. The God Makers is a very slanted version of some of the more sacred and covered-up parts of the LDS religion. It is like throwing pearls before swine, it does contain some actual truth, yet should not be taken as THE truth.


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 12:25 PM by jakyll
reply to post by Jadette


True,this did happen and yes there are many arguments against it which,even though i'm a Mormon,i find it very hard to believe them.


But does thin mean Joseph Smith was a false prophet?

No.

As stated in the Bible a prophet is someone who has a testimony (open declaration) of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellow servant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship God:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.



There are many different types of prophets.Some predict the future,some speak by divine inspiration and others are endowed with profound moral and spiritual insight or knowledge.All are mortal and all are capable of making mistakes.

www.websters-online-dictionary.org...



God promised Josiah that he would have a peaceful death,but Josiah died in battle either by being shot with an arrow (2 Chr.35:23-24) or being slain by the Egyptian King (2 Kg.23:29-30)
As each account is far from peaceful does this mean that God is wrong about everything else?









[edit on 19-3-2008 by jakyll]


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 01:44 PM by Bigwhammy
reply to post by jakyll

Didn't you read the verse it is in Christ alone Eph 2:8-9
"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

reply to post byenchantress62

No we are supposed to make judgments on false and dangerous doctrines.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,(2 Tim 3:16)

reply to post by tamerlane

There are a ton more errors, one of the biggest is the belief you can earn your salvation. That is completely against what Paul said in Romans 11
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


The entire premise of the Book of Mormon was a LIE it is a scientific certainty!!! There were no Israelites in the Americas before modern time!
Break through your denial and look at the evidence presented by other Mormons.

This is conclusive proof Joesph Smith Lied.




[edit on 3/19/2008 by Bigwhammy]


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 01:51 PM by Bigwhammy
reply to post by jakyll


But what you have is not just a prophet , it is a different Gospel.

The gospel of Christ is by Grace alone- you have a works based Smith gospel a different gospel than Paul teaches. And it is condemed.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Gal1:8)


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 01:56 PM by AshleyD
reply to post by enchantress62


Hey, Enchantress. First of all, I think you are a sweetheart and don't want you taking this the wrong way at all. This is not directed at you in any way but what you have said (which is the exact same thing I see being said almost all over the CIR forum).

The thing is, Christians have every right to have an opinion about things. Having an opinion on controversial subjects or being outspoken about things does not make one 'Unchristian.' Yes, we are told not to judge others. But we are also told to judge all things. Mormonism is a thing.

It gets very frustrating sometimes as it often feels everyone is entitled to an opinion on this forum with the exception of Christians because we get the 'judge not' passage thrown in our faces. Again, this is not specifically pointed at you since this has happened many, many times.

Nothing should be off limits. This is a discussion forum that focuses on conspiracies. Discussing a topic and investigating the claims of a prophet is not judgmental or against biblical teachings. In fact, we're told to do such things.

I'll jump on the bandwagon with others who have said Mormons are some of the nicest and most solid people I have ever met. In fact, I have never met one that rubbed me the wrong way. They seem to be more 'Christ-like' than most mainstream Christians I meet. Kudos to them. But there is nothing wrong with discussing Mormonism in a conspiracy forum.

Just my two cents. God bless.


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 05:08 PM by jakyll
reply to post by Bigwhammy


All who claim the title "Christian" will be able to agree on the following two truths:salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12).

If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word "faith," we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase "faith alone" is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.

The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God's truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it's certainly an attention grabber.

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was "born again" it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by "remaining in Him" (John 15:1-11).

Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a "waiver" that exempts them from these verses.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was "declared righteous" before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by "believing" faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith "working in love" (Galatians 5:6). Isn't this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by "works of law" (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He's condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn't justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham's life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God's providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he's "declared righteous" (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.







But what you have is not just a prophet,it is a different Gospel.



A gospel is not just one book,it is several.The Bible only contains 4.
There are at least 12 others that are contained in the scriptures known as the Apocrypha.
As Jesus told us that he would send more prophets and seers it means that more works/teachings would be revealed & written down.


The Catholics use this line to make claim on there being no more prophets,
Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,If any man shall add unto these things,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:



When written,this book wasn't part of the Bible,it was a book unto itself just like the others.(it wasn't until the 4th century that the Bible truly came together.) So therefore it is impossible for it to refer to the whole Bible.Plus,this Catholic teaching goes against what Jesus said.


In Deuteronomy 4:2 Moses tells the people that no one should add to the words he has commanded to them.Does that mean we should disregard the rest of the Bible?











[edit on 19-3-2008 by jakyll]


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 05:32 PM by Bigwhammy
Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Bigwhammy




Once you study that DNA evidence you'll stop defending the Book of Mormon anyway. It's a slam dunk.

Have you read any information that gives support for the DNA question,or has it all been studies that are against it?

This link will give you a different point of view.
mormanity.blogspot.com...


Sorry I missed this post. I did read the Mormanity blog response the essay "DNA and the Book of Mormon" however that paper was from 2005.
There is further evidence
Nearly all of today's Native Americans in North, Central and South America can trace part of their ancestry to six women whose descendants immigrated around 20,000 years ago, a DNA study suggests.

news.yahoo.com...

Your worst opponent is going to be Thomas W. Murphy, LDS Anthropologist. That's right he is a Mormon and he works for LDS and he says BOM is false. Watch the video.

Also it not just mDNA it is also Y chromosome DNA and linguistics evidence that all point to Asian ancestry.

There is no compelling evidence for a connection between Jewish populations and Native American populations based on genetics. Probably the most fundamental and the most definitive evidence for that has been based on mitochondrial and Y-chromosome data. If you look at genes in Native Americans, they came from their ancestors. They had to come from their ancestral populations, and those ancestors lived somewhere. You can look for those genes in Jewish populations, but you don’t find them. If you look at genes that are most commonly found in Native American populations and those that are most commonly found in Jewish populations, they don’t coincide at all.
(Dr. David Glenn Smith, Molecular Anthropologist, University of California-Davis)
Curriculum Vitae: www.anthro.ucdavis.edu...)


Don't forget the linguistics evidence from Dr John McLaughlin from Utah State University.

The Bible has historical and Archaeological evidence to support it.There is not one shred of corroborating evidence for the Book of Mormon. Not even one.

But look at this way at least you have a sold background in Bible and good works etc. It wasn't all loss. You can use it for good. Just make sure you accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for you salvation. You guys will have a great church once you throw out the heresy of a bad founder.


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 06:51 PM by Bigwhammy
reply to post by jakyll


"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."(Isaiah 64:6)

You did not credit the source of the quoted text on faith and works.

I read it, it has some points. It hardly justifies the Mormon position. How clear does Paul have to be than "not by works" ? How does it justify your answer to Cons question? Works will follow naturally from faith and true salvation, they are not a requirement. It's a blatant doctrinal error of Mormonism.


A gospel is not just one book,it is several.The Bible only contains 4.
There are at least 12 others that are contained in the scriptures known as the Apocrypha. As Jesus told us that he would send more prophets and seers it means that more works/teachings would be revealed & written down.


You are using the wrong definition for Gospel for that verse. The verse you were addressing is Gal 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Gospel in this verse comes from the Greek word euaggelizō


1) to bring good news, to announce glad tidings

a) used in the OT of any kind of good news

1) of the joyful tidings of God's kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings

b) in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation

Strongs Greek Lexicon

The Gospel is that Christ died for your sins. You do not have to pay him back. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The true Gospel provides full and free freedom from the power and penalty of sin through the grace of God alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

So works based salvation that you believe in, is truly a different gospel. It is not the one preached by Paul. Again Galatians 1 is about this, are you trying to please men with works?

"As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ."(Gal 1:9-10)

Apostle Paul couldn't be more clear, the Gospel you guys are preaching is to be eternally condemed. Why? - because it belittles the cross.


For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,If any man shall add unto these things,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


When written,this book wasn't part of the Bible,it was a book unto itself just like the others.(it wasn't until the 4th century that the Bible truly came together.) So therefore it is impossible for it to refer to the whole Bible.Plus,this Catholic teaching goes against what Jesus said.


It's hard to say, he probably meant just Revelations. But it's not impossible if you believe in the divine inspiration of scripture. Do you? That was Jesus giving John a vision. I think he might have had a clue as to what the cannon would be.

The Book of Mormon is not compatible with the Bible cannon. The only people who try and say it is are Mormons. The IRS had to threaten to remove tax exempt status before African Americans were even allowed to participate. Gee, I wonder how many black people live in Utah?









[edit on 3/19/2008 by Bigwhammy]



reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 07:28 PM by jakyll
reply to post by Bigwhammy




You did not credit the source of the quoted text on faith and works.



Apologies.

It was by Professor Salvatore Ciresi,a Catholic Theologian.


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 07:39 PM by jakyll
reply to post by Bigwhammy




Apostle Paul couldn't be more clear, the Gospel you guys are preaching is to be eternally condemed. Why? - because it belittles the cross.


No it doesn't.The meaning of the cross is very important to us but unlike many Christians we believe in a living Christ,and the cross is the symbol of His death therefore we do not use it in the same manner as others.

This link will give you a better idea of what i mean.

www.lds.org... __


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 08:41 PM by Bigwhammy
reply to post by andre18


Oh what devastating wit!

The guy that bombs a clinic is disobeying the Bible. The authors of the Bible did not bomb abortion clinics. The founders of the Mormon faith are guilty of polygamy and racism. By the evidence we have now they are guilty of complete fraud. As there are no Israelite related Indians.

I know you just have an Anti Christian agenda. You really should be ashamed of this one www.belowtopsecret.com... you didn't even understand what you were quoting.

[edit on 3/19/2008 by Bigwhammy]


reply posted on 19-3-2008 @ 09:07 PM by Bigwhammy
Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Bigwhammy


Apostle Paul couldn't be more clear, the Gospel you guys are preaching is to be eternally condemed. Why? - because it belittles the cross.


No it doesn't.The meaning of the cross is very important to us but unlike many Christians we believe in a living Christ,and the cross is the symbol of His death therefore we do not use it in the same manner as others.

This link will give you a better idea of what i mean.
www.lds.org... __


The link is broken.

When I say the cross I mean the price he paid for you on it, not the symbol.
When you try to add to it, you are saying it was not enough.
The Book of Mormon is exactly what Paul was warning of when he said a different Gospel. It truly is a different gospel of Jesus Christ. And Paul says it is to be condemed no ifs ,ands, or buts.

Did you have time to watch the video, that LDS Anthropologist, Thomas W. Murphy examined the evidence and concluded Smith was a liar. Interestingly enough he will not officially leave the church. I think it is obvious he cares for the Mormon church but he wants them to tell the truth.







[edit on 3/19/2008 by Bigwhammy]
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